DEILD method - why is it not working?

A month ago I awoke from a nightmare, and then without moving, I imagined the scene and found myself back in the dream lucid. I discovered this was called the DEILD method. So now every time I wake up in the night and try to imagine the dream I just had, nothing works. I can't re-enter the dream. I need to know why.


Is it because,

1. As soon as I wake up, I move and forget I have to stay still

2. It's at the end of my rem period

3. The dreams that end have to be lucid for the DEILD method to work



I'd appreciate any advice. I'm thinking of using an alarm that goes off for two seconds and switches it self off. So when I hear it, I know instantly not to move, and then I'll re-enter the dream.

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Originally Posted by dro

I'd appreciate any advice. I'm thinking of using an alarm that goes off for two seconds and switches it self off. So when I hear it, I know instantly not to move, and then I'll re-enter the dream.

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Now, that's a good idea ( thread on my signature )

As to why you haven´t suceeded in DEILD - bear in mind this is a subtle technique, which requires fine conditioning, and is not meant to work after every awakening. But it has the potential to work in around 2 awakenings ( on a 8 hour sleep ). If you use an alarm it becomes definitely easier.

Edit: the only point i can agree to be required is point 2, the others are not absolutely required ( but also help a lot )

^^ What VaVagaltone said, plus:


1. As soon as I wake up, I move and forget I have to stay still -- Yes.

2. It's at the end of my rem period -- Could be

3. The dreams that end have to be lucid for the DEILD method to work -- No, but starting out lucid always helps!


I guess my point is that you're already in the right ballpark for figuring this stuff out just by making those observations. I suggest that you keep at it, and maybe look into Dutchraptor's DEILD guide as well as the brief bit I gave it in my WILD class.

The only other thing I can think of is that alarms, even brief ones, have an outstanding ability to fire up your reticular system and wake you up immediately and perhaps too much. You might consider doing without the alarm a couple of times, and see if you can just DEILD after waking up naturally (especially later in your sleep cycle).

Regardless, I think you'll have this solved in no time... good luck!

Hey VagalTone / Sageous, if people tend to wake at the end of a REM cycle, does that then make doing a DEILD quite difficult?
I can see that the alarm clock technique, although a bit hit-and-miss, could at least wake you during a REM period when the brain chemistry is right for dreaming.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ What VaVagaltone said, plus:





The only other thing I can think of is that alarms, even brief ones, have an outstanding ability to fire up your reticular system and wake you up immediately and perhaps too much. You might consider doing without the alarm a couple of times, and see if you can just DEILD after waking up naturally (especially later in your sleep cycle).

Regardless, I think you'll have this solved in no time... good luck!

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Thank you for the links, I will look at those.

I already have been trying this without the alarm, and even with auto-suggestion, I still forget to stay still. I haven't even come close to remembering not to move after waking up naturally. I'm hoping that tonight when the alarm goes off I will remember what to do and eventually get conditioned to respond appropriately.

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

Now, that's a good idea ( thread on my signature )

As to why you haven´t suceeded in DEILD - bear in mind this is a subtle technique, which requires fine conditioning, and is not meant to work after every awakening. But it has the potential to work in around 2 awakenings ( on a 8 hour sleep ). If you use an alarm it becomes definitely easier.

Edit: the only point i can agree to be required is point 2, the others are not absolutely required ( but also help a lot )

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Thank you. This helps a lot. I'm going to set the alarm to go off very briefly, 2 seconds maximum, so that I only get woken up slightly, just enough to know where I am. Then I'll try to re enter the dream.

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Originally Posted by Goldenspark

Hey VagalTone / Sageous, if people tend to wake at the end of a REM cycle, does that then make doing a DEILD quite difficult?
I can see that the alarm clock technique, although a bit hit-and-miss, could at least wake you during a REM period when the brain chemistry is right for dreaming.

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If you wake up at the end of REM cycle, i don´t see how DEILD can happen but you still can WILD.

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Originally Posted by dro

Thank you. This helps a lot. I'm going to set the alarm to go off very briefly, 2 seconds maximum, so that I only get woken up slightly, just enough to know where I am. Then I'll try to re enter the dream.

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Not disregarding what Sageous said regarding natural DEILD - which should be the ultimate goal in DEILD, i can further say ( from own experience ) that alarm technique is best when following a regular sleep schedule and also with WBTB. 2 seconds, 30 min interval, after no less than 4,5 hours is fine.

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Originally Posted by dro

Thank you. This helps a lot. I'm going to set the alarm to go off very briefly, 2 seconds maximum, so that I only get woken up slightly, just enough to know where I am. Then I'll try to re enter the dream.

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Maybe two seconds is too much; for some time I used a sound giving two high pitched bell sounds (Tibetan bells). The total duration of the first bell sound was about two seconds, and it would leave me fully awake before the second bell sounded a few seconds later. I never did find an appropriate sound volume level, where it would leave me slightly awake. It was always either completely awake, or completely oblivious.

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

If you wake up at the end of REM cycle, i don´t see how DEILD can happen but you still can WILD.

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That's what could happen. I hope it doesn't, but if my sleep cycle ends, I'll have to just go to bed and try again the next time I wake up. I have tried to WILD before and I couldn't even come close. It's almost impossible for me. It also caused me insomnia after a while.

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Originally Posted by Voldmer

Maybe two seconds is too much; for some time I used a sound giving two high pitched bell sounds (Tibetan bells). The total duration of the first bell sound was about two seconds, and it would leave me fully awake before the second bell sounded a few seconds later. I never did find an appropriate sound volume level, where it would leave me slightly awake. It was always either completely awake, or completely oblivious.

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I'll see what happens tonight. Hopefully 2 seconds won't be too much, but it could be. I wake up very easily. I'll have to keep experimenting to get the right schedule.

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Originally Posted by Goldenspark

Hey VagalTone / Sageous, if people tend to wake at the end of a REM cycle, does that then make doing a DEILD quite difficult?

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It can, which is why it makes sense to do your DEILDing well into your sleep cycle (after 5hrs, generally), when your REM periods are practically bumping into each other.

Also: this isn't at all scientific, but keep in mind that the timing of your sleep cycle's is not carved in stone. I have a feeling (and have been led to believe thru experience) that, if you are really focused on getting back into a dream thru DEILD, your brain will cooperate by "continuing" REM, even if it wasn't quite on the schedule!

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Originally Posted by Sageous

It can, which is why it makes sense to do your DEILDing well into your sleep cycle (after 5hrs, generally), when your REM periods are practically bumping into each other.

Also: this isn't at all scientific, but keep in mind that the timing of your sleep cycle's is not carved in stone. I have a feeling (and have been led to believe thru experience) that, if you are really focused on getting back into a dream thru DEILD, your brain will cooperate by "continuing" REM, even if it wasn't quite on the schedule!

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I guess we're all different, but I thought that the state of brain chemistry was one of the 3 legs of the LD stool, so if the REM cycle has ended it was very difficult to get back in. I've been using the Zeo headband for quite some time now, as well as one of the open EEG devices, and for me it doesn't look like my REM episodes bump into each other later on. Maybe that's just me. I appear to have about 10-30 minutes of REM about every 90. The REM length does increase a bit at the end of the night (morning).

^^ That may be, but brain chemistry has never been one of the three legs of my LD'ing stool (those legs being self-awareness, memory, and expectation/intention, the Fundamentals), which could explain why you and I are different.

I think -- and have personally found -- that the brain is a bit more elastic than the textbooks and dreaming device manuals let on. You have plenty of ability to "stretch" out REM periods, and perhaps start one up, if your expectations/intentions and self-awareness are powerful enough.

That said, there are averages, and the REM periods you report don't come close to those averages. After six hours of sleep, you should be experiencing REM for a good half-hour, with diminishing lengths of NREM as the hours pass. By eight hours, your REM periods could last 45 minutes or more, with very brief bits of NREM in between. That's per hour, BTW, and not per 90 minutes. Are your machines working properly? ;) How much later on are you sleeping/monitoring that sleep? If your REM is truly that far apart after 6hrs, perhaps you should attempt to sleep for 9 or 10?

That said, I must mention that expectation/intention leg of my lucid dreaming fundamentals stool. If you are monitoring your REM periods in an in-depth manner, and also assuming (from those machines) that your REM periods are always a particular length per 90 minutes, they very likely will eventually wind up being that particular length. I would recommend setting the machines and their data aside for a little while, and simply attempting some late-morning LD'ing (DILD or WILD, it doesn't matter), and seeing if DEILD's might work for you simply because you are confident that they will. Data is a fine thing, but don't let it redefine your activity.

As you might have noticed by now, I've never held a lot of faith in over-the-counter REM-detection devices, and certainly don't hold their reporting as a concrete foundation for when your dreams may happen. This may have caused some bias in me, I suppose, but it has also allowed me to confidently perform DEILD's whenever the need arises, without concern for maybe missing a REM period.

And that said, keep in mind that even if you are at the beginning of NREM, a DEILD might still yield results. Your conscious push to continue your dream could land you in a DILD later, with no percieved time lapse, or you might even get to enjoy a bit of NREM dreaming while you await your next REM period. These options only exist, of course, if you choose to allow their existence. Assuming the machines' output defines unbreakable boundaries will indeed give you some unbreakable boundaries. Enjoy the machines, read their data, but don't let them run the show.

Okay, I see I've begun to ramble (and preach) here, so I'll stop.

Tl;dr: REM periods, statistically, are longer and closer together after several hours of sleep, and very close together after 8 hours of sleep, though yours could be different. Despite that, trust yourself, not the toys.

^^ Believe it or not, I actually left something out of that last post, and it was a bit that might more directly address your post, Goldenspark:

DEILD's very often, if not typically, are performed during REM. Since LD's are a very wakeful event, and after several hours' sleep we become more prone to waking during them. So, if you perform a DEILD when waking up during REM, it really doesn't matter if the periods are close together or not, because you will be dropping back into REM, and not NREM. Also, I've found that a return to REM seems to "refresh" it, making it last longer than simply the rest of the original period. The same thing could happen again, creating a state of "chaining" an LD among several DEILD's, across far more time than normally allotted by your sleep cycle for that original period... at least for me!

Okay; now I'm done!

3

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Originally Posted by dro

I already have been trying this without the alarm, and even with auto-suggestion, I still forget to stay still. I haven't even come close to remembering not to move after waking up naturally. I'm hoping that tonight when the alarm goes off I will remember what to do and eventually get conditioned to respond appropriately.

---

I don't know if you've tried this or not, but practicing waking up is a very effective way to change your default reaction. You can lay in bed, pretending to sleep, imagining a dream or w/e, with your alarm set for 1 minute in the future. Then when it goes off, continue to lay completely still, and re-imagine the 'dream' you were having. If you do this for a handful of rounds, it will be the default pattern. I did this successfully to train myself to wake up to a low volume chime being struck. Works wonders!

@OP
It could be 1 or 2, or the fact that it is harder to DEILD after non lucids. But the main thing that you are probably missing, that seems to be missing from most things I see on DV, is experience. Experience is the easiest way to get lucid. The problem is, is that you need it to get it. This is why we go down to the next easiest, but often time consuming, RCing to raise awareness. Other easy ways would be like this:
http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...technique.html

It is easier to DEILD (or any type of WILD) if you have some experience under your belt. Some seem to catch on rather quick to WILD, but they are either lucky or gifted. Or simply they have experience with something else that makes it easier for them.

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Originally Posted by Nfri

3

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? Why do you say 3? have you never DEILDed except after lucids?

I have found that DEILDing is easier if after lucid, but if you do the exact technique after a non lucid you can slip seamlessly into the next dream (not having a lapse of conscious) and still not know that you are dreaming. Of course, it is possible to DEILD after non lucids. I have been practicing actually this exact technique lately, only succeeded twice in my history, but both were in the last couple weeks (one last night).

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ That may be, but brain chemistry has never been one of the three legs of my LD'ing stool (those legs being self-awareness, memory, and expectation/intention, the Fundamentals), which could explain why you and I are different.

I think -- and have personally found -- that the brain is a bit more elastic than the textbooks and dreaming device manuals let on. You have plenty of ability to "stretch" out REM periods, and perhaps start one up, if your expectations/intentions and self-awareness are powerful enough.

That said, there are averages, and the REM periods you report don't come close to those averages. After six hours of sleep, you should be experiencing REM for a good half-hour, with diminishing lengths of NREM as the hours pass. By eight hours, your REM periods could last 45 minutes or more, with very brief bits of NREM in between. That's per hour, BTW, and not per 90 minutes. Are your machines working properly? ;) How much later on are you sleeping/monitoring that sleep? If your REM is truly that far apart after 6hrs, perhaps you should attempt to sleep for 9 or 10?

That said, I must mention that expectation/intention leg of my lucid dreaming fundamentals stool. If you are monitoring your REM periods in an in-depth manner, and also assuming (from those machines) that your REM periods are always a particular length per 90 minutes, they very likely will eventually wind up being that particular length. I would recommend setting the machines and their data aside for a little while, and simply attempting some late-morning LD'ing (DILD or WILD, it doesn't matter), and seeing if DEILD's might work for you simply because you are confident that they will. Data is a fine thing, but don't let it redefine your activity.

As you might have noticed by now, I've never held a lot of faith in over-the-counter REM-detection devices, and certainly don't hold their reporting as a concrete foundation for when your dreams may happen. This may have caused some bias in me, I suppose, but it has also allowed me to confidently perform DEILD's whenever the need arises, without concern for maybe missing a REM period.

And that said, keep in mind that even if you are at the beginning of NREM, a DEILD might still yield results. Your conscious push to continue your dream could land you in a DILD later, with no percieved time lapse, or you might even get to enjoy a bit of NREM dreaming while you await your next REM period. These options only exist, of course, if you choose to allow their existence. Assuming the machines' output defines unbreakable boundaries will indeed give you some unbreakable boundaries. Enjoy the machines, read their data, but don't let them run the show.

Okay, I see I've begun to ramble (and preach) here, so I'll stop.

Tl;dr: REM periods, statistically, are longer and closer together after several hours of sleep, and very close together after 8 hours of sleep, though yours could be different. Despite that, trust yourself, not the toys.

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Hey Dro, I hope you don't mind this little aside - don't want to hijack your thread!

Thanks Sageous, you could be right in that the toys might be lying, or at least influencing what they are trying to measure.
The three legs of the stool I was mentioning was really a reference to "Are You Dreaming?" by Daniel Love, where he talks about the 3 pillars of lucidity - Psychology, Timing and Brain Chemistry.
Your direct experience is very valuable, and thanks for sharing. I am changing my view since this would be a form of incubation to believe that I can change the REM cycle timing as you suggest.

Back to te OP, Dro, sorry if I missed it, but do you have much LD experience? It makes a difference if you are not, and this was a one off you are describing that you want to repeat?
It may be better not to get too hung up about repeating that chance method, if that was what it was?

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Originally Posted by Schmaven

I don't know if you've tried this or not, but practicing waking up is a very effective way to change your default reaction. You can lay in bed, pretending to sleep, imagining a dream or w/e, with your alarm set for 1 minute in the future. Then when it goes off, continue to lay completely still, and re-imagine the 'dream' you were having. If you do this for a handful of rounds, it will be the default pattern. I did this successfully to train myself to wake up to a low volume chime being struck. Works wonders!

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That´s interesting ! Thanks for sharing

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? Why do you say 3? have you never DEILDed except after lucids?

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Well I did, but the question is why he can't achieve ld by deild. Lucid-deild-lucid is easy, but nonlucid-deild-lucid is hard and even for beginners? I don't recommend... As you 've said sensei, the best is to start with naiya's mild.