Trying to LD is Killing My Sleep

Hello all.

I'm looking for suggestions for my problem.

I have had trouble falling asleep and staying asleep for much of my adult life. In the past few years I have found techniques to help me fall asleep quicker (but it still takes roughly 30 - 60 minutes unless I am completely exhausted). I haven't found the solution for waking up in the night. If I wake up very briefly, don't see light, and don't activate my mind I can usually doze off pretty quickly. However, if I start thinking or see a bright light source, I could spend another 30 - 60 min trying fall back to sleep or I may not be able to fall back to sleep at all. (I've made it a habit to stop drinking an fluids 2 hours before I plan to lay down.)

Dream recall and micro WBTB have been an issue for me since I started back to pursuing LDs. My typical night sleep is only about 7 hours (this is natural, I sleep approximately the same amount on the weekend...even when I really want to sleep more). Loosing even 1 hour of sleep is tough, doing this multiple nights in a row is horrible. So, waking up after a dream requires me to attempt to recall the dream. This definitely activates my mind which impacts my ability to fall back to sleep. This week I've had multiple nights where I've awoken between 3:30 am and 4:00 am and could not fall back to sleep (I wake up at 5 am). Currently I am completely exhausted.

To add to this issue, waking up after my dreams is becoming a habit. So now if I wake up after any dream my mind just starts a recall attempt right away. I just can help it.

This problem is the #1 reason why I stopped pursing LDing in the past. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I'm starting to have this issue as well, this morning I woke up naturally after a dream a little after 4 and after jotting some keywords from the dream into my journal I couldn't get back to sleep so today I'm really tired. It makes it harder when I'm sleeping with my GF because I don't want to wake her up too so sometimes I decide to skip writing in my journal, but then forget most of my dream later. I'm afraid I'll lose interest not just because of my sleep but because I don't want to mess with her sleep either. When I first started getting into LDing I was single so I didn't care too much about myself missing out on some sleep but I'd feel awful if I kept disrupting hers. It's a bummer because I'm really motivated this time and think I could get into it and start actually making good progress unlike last time.

I think what I'm going to try to do is not focus so much on recalling everything and writing it down immediately and just remember the latest parts, then try to go back to sleep with the intention of continuing the dream, at least if I'm with her. Then only during my last wake up period will I try to recall what I can and jot down some notes to write up the dream later. I may miss out on a few details of some previous dreams but I guess it doesn't matter too much in the long run, I figure I'll still be able to remember the LDs better anyway and that's what I'm most interested in. Maybe also during those nights when I lose sleep I can try to nap later in the day and get some REM rebound or something :P

Sorry not great advice from me since I'm in the same boat as you are, hopefully someone else will chime in with a good solution.

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Originally Posted by Fuzzman

I'm starting to have this issue as well, this morning I woke up naturally after a dream a little after 4 and after jotting some keywords from the dream into my journal I couldn't get back to sleep so today I'm really tired. It makes it harder when I'm sleeping with my GF because I don't want to wake her up too so sometimes I decide to skip writing in my journal, but then forget most of my dream later. I'm afraid I'll lose interest not just because of my sleep but because I don't want to mess with her sleep either. When I first started getting into LDing I was single so I didn't care too much about myself missing out on some sleep but I'd feel awful if I kept disrupting hers. It's a bummer because I'm really motivated this time and think I could get into it and start actually making good progress unlike last time.

I think what I'm going to try to do is not focus so much on recalling everything and writing it down immediately and just remember the latest parts, then try to go back to sleep with the intention of continuing the dream, at least if I'm with her. Then only during my last wake up period will I try to recall what I can and jot down some notes to write up the dream later. I may miss out on a few details of some previous dreams but I guess it doesn't matter too much in the long run, I figure I'll still be able to remember the LDs better anyway and that's what I'm most interested in. Maybe also during those nights when I lose sleep I can try to nap later in the day and get some REM rebound or something :P

Sorry not great advice from me since I'm in the same boat as you are, hopefully someone else will chime in with a good solution.

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Thank you for the reply Fuzzman. I may have stop my intent to wake up after every dream and only record the dreams I have just before I wake up at my normal time. Napping doesn't work for me. I can only nap if I'm completely exhausted or very sick. Even then if I nap during the day it takes me hours to fall asleep at night.

this happens to me as well. its as if i wake up after every single dream cycle! instead of trying to recall the whole dream every time though, i try to remember a keyword. I just tell myself to remember that one word that is associated with the dream and then go back to sleep right away. That way, In the morning when I'm ready to get out of bed, I just have to remember the one word and the other bits and pieces of the dream start coming back to me. I hope this helps. My only other advice would be to try breathing techniques (circular breathing) and a sort of "in bed" meditation. This helps me calm my racing thoughts / mind and get into that sort of relaxed state that helps me fall asleep.
also - the typical advice, avoid caffeine at night, don't eat a heavy meal close to bedtime, etc.. but i'm pretty sure you probably already know that ;)

If I were you, I would focus more on increasing awareness and memory during daytime, and less on dream recall in the middle of the night, since you do need to have enough sleep to LD and that is even more important than dream recall. If you increase awareness and memory while waking, that increases chance of LD. Also getting more sleep increases chance of LD. So dream recall is just part of it, and you may wish to now focus on the other parts. And yes, concentrating on dream recall when waking up for final awakening only sounds good to me in your case. For me this is different, but I can fall asleep relatively quickly nowadays.

This used to not be the case. I actually improved my ability to fall asleep faster by following the WILD tutorial every time I fell asleep - it did not cause a WILD but it did cause me to fall asleep most of the time faster than before.

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Originally Posted by opalwolf

this happens to me as well. its as if i wake up after every single dream cycle! instead of trying to recall the whole dream every time though, i try to remember a keyword. I just tell myself to remember that one word that is associated with the dream and then go back to sleep right away. That way, In the morning when I'm ready to get out of bed, I just have to remember the one word and the other bits and pieces of the dream start coming back to me. I hope this helps. My only other advice would be to try breathing techniques (circular breathing) and a sort of "in bed" meditation. This helps me calm my racing thoughts / mind and get into that sort of relaxed state that helps me fall asleep.
also - the typical advice, avoid caffeine at night, don't eat a heavy meal close to bedtime, etc.. but i'm pretty sure you probably already know that ;)

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Thank you. I have up all stimulants a long time ago. Back when I used to drink soda it would take me hours to fall asleep. I use in bed meditation techniques before I sleep, and I try them when I wake up, but it still takes 30 - 60 min to fall asleep. I will try the key word. Currently I've been using keywords, but I typically have to spend a couple of minutes recalling the dream (I have to work backward from the end and piece it together), it is this time that wakes me up.

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Originally Posted by JoannaB

If I were you, I would focus more on increasing awareness and memory during daytime, and less on dream recall in the middle of the night, since you do need to have enough sleep to LD and that is even more important than dream recall. If you increase awareness and memory while waking, that increases chance of LD. Also getting more sleep increases chance of LD. So dream recall is just part of it, and you may wish to now focus on the other parts. And yes, concentrating on dream recall when waking up for final awakening only sounds good to me in your case. For me this is different, but I can fall asleep relatively quickly nowadays.

This used to not be the case. I actually improved my ability to fall asleep faster by following the WILD tutorial every time I fell asleep - it did not cause a WILD but it did cause me to fall asleep most of the time faster than before.

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Thank you JoannaB. This is what I was afraid of. I've actually been enjoying dream journaling this time around. But I'm must going to have to focus on getting enough sleep (for my health) and work on other LD techniques.

Have you tried the WILD technique? You can combine both LD and getting to sleep in a few different scenarios with the WILD. You can also put your body at rest and leave your mind open, a short cut would be to imagine a door that leads you into your dream world. I can give you the technique I use, just send me a PM if you'd like it. Also you can use reality checks during the day so when you do get to sleep and find a RC in your dream, you can use that to initiate lucid dreaming.
I have found that melatonin pills helps me get to sleep, it's naturally found in your body.

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Originally Posted by DeadDollKitty

Have you tried the WILD technique? You can combine both LD and getting to sleep in a few different scenarios with the WILD. You can also put your body at rest and leave your mind open, a short cut would be to imagine a door that leads you into your dream world. I can give you the technique I use, just send me a PM if you'd like it. Also you can use reality checks during the day so when you do get to sleep and find a RC in your dream, you can use that to initiate lucid dreaming.
I have found that melatonin pills helps me get to sleep, it's naturally found in your body.

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Thank you DeadDollKitty. I currently do RCs and Awareness techniques during the day (except today, I'm just "falling down exhausted"). I will PM you about the WILD technique. I have melatonin at home which I take when I'm having a bout of insomnia. I use magnesium must night which helps as well.

Have you considered seeing a doctor and doing a sleep study ? I was diagnosed with severe sleep apnea last Oct and now use a cpap machine. It has dramatically improved my sleep quality and increased my LD count since I have more REM time. I still have issues with sometimes not being able to fall back to sleep after waking up, but even if i dont get 4 or 5 hours of sleep I feel 100% better the next day than I use to. Hope that helps...........

I have been recently doing the DEILD technique and it has worked well, and I dont need to get up and become alert. You simply just lay still keeping your eyes closed after waking up from a dream. The thinking is that you slip right back into the dream. Its worked for me twice this week.

I really really don't like homework and once I start doing it I get sleepy within 5-10 minutes and after 30-45 minutes of it I can be sure that I fall asleep within 10 minutes of laying in bed. Don't you have something like that to bore the crap out of you?

EDIT: I just saw that you're 44, a few years older than my dad. I really have no idea of what would bore the crap out of a 44 year old man.. I'll try to think of something in the coming moments

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Originally Posted by AstroFlyer

Have you considered seeing a doctor and doing a sleep study ? I was diagnosed with severe sleep apnea last Oct and now use a cpap machine. It has dramatically improved my sleep quality and increased my LD count since I have more REM time. I still have issues with sometimes not being able to fall back to sleep after waking up, but even if i dont get 4 or 5 hours of sleep I feel 100% better the next day than I use to. Hope that helps...........

I have been recently doing the DEILD technique and it has worked well, and I dont need to get up and become alert. You simply just lay still keeping your eyes closed after waking up from a dream. The thinking is that you slip right back into the dream. Its worked for me twice this week.

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Thank you AstroFlyer. I have never been part of a sleep study, but I have talked to my doctor in the past. He had me on a light prescription for a while, but I hated the side affects. I definitely don't have sleep apnea (Dr. ruled that out). My main problem is that I become fully alert to easily (which is extremely frustrating). I really want to try DEILD (I printed out the tutorial a few days ago) it is just a matter of not becoming too alert after I awake.

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Originally Posted by Ginsan

I really really don't like homework and once I start doing it I get sleepy within 5-10 minutes and after 30-45 minutes of it I can be sure that I fall asleep within 10 minutes of laying in bed. Don't you have something like that to bore the crap out of you?

EDIT: I just saw that you're 44, a few years older than my dad. I really have no idea of what would bore the crap out of a 44 year old man.. I'll try to think of something in the coming moments

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LOL! Being 44 yrs old my life could bore the crap out of many people. :happyface:

Here is my nightly ritual to fall asleep: After getting ready for bed, I lay down an read a boring fiction book (I have a whole bunch of classic books in my Kindle - Moby Dick, Sherlock Holmes, Oliver Twist, etc). I will read from 15 to 45 min depending on how I feel. (My wife, who has the reverse issue I have, is asleep 3 minutes after her head hits the pillow). I spend a 5 - 10 minutes reviewing my dream journal. I shut off the light and meditate (breathing and clearing my mind) for 5 - 10 min, do some LD Visualization, and then repeat my mantras until I doze off. (pretty boring stuff, but it works).

The bigger issue is when I wake up. If I turn on a light I won't be able to go back to sleep. If I get up and move around I won't be able to go back to sleep. If I wake up briefly and don't focus my mind on anything (like recalling a dream) I can usually go right back to sleep. It really $ucks!

I've gone through something vaguely similar with my LD practice. I generally have not had sleeping problems throughout my life, however, I usually fall asleep fairly quickly at bed time, but any sufficient mental stimulation in the middle of the night can result in insomnia. The night before a big trip or a job interview I generally won't sleep at all.

When I started LD practice I took quickly to waking up after every dream (I set intention to do so every night before bed) to do dream recall. It was really exciting and I loved remembering dreams every single time I woke up. I was remembering up to 16 or more dreams every night (4 or more wakings and up to 4ish dreams each time), it was awesome. When all I was doing was recall it was OK, I could get back to sleep multiple times. But when I started trying middle of the night MILD and SSILD for lucidity, oooh boy was it tough to get back to sleep.

After a month or so I started having real problems getting back to sleep in the middle of the night.

I was getting really really anxious, I so badly wanted to LD but no sleep = no dreams. More anxiety = less sleep. I was "trying to sleep" which meant more insomnia. Trying WILD a bunch of times made it worse as I became attuned to the transition into sleep and would "jerk" awake at the transition point.

I had to teach myself how to sleep all over again! Long story short, relaxation was the number one key to getting back to sleep, both mental and physical relaxation. The other main keys were: good diet, and getting regular daily exercise. There are a lot of "how to sleep" sites on the internet. Maybe that could help you, even with your history. I also found that melatonin (1mg is enough I've found, I took up to 3mg a few times) helps to break through "long bedtime to sleep" cycles and for those times I felt absolutely wired 100% awake at bed time.

Where I am now is that I've actually gotten out of the habit of waking up after every dream, and while I do prefer not waking up during the night, I know this is probably affecting my recall and LD rates. I generally wake up once at around 6 hrs, and at that time have pretty good to excellent recall, but it's still pretty far from where I was when I was getting up 2-4 times before the final waking. I'm actually trying to get back to waking up at least one additional time but I find I'm just not responding to the intention setting, but that's another story.

The key thing with "fixing" MILD and SSILD to not result in insomnia was learning a lot about how I fall asleep. Once I figured out the relaxation approach that worked for me (in essence, relaxation breathing, "sinking into" drowsiness, letting go of all tension mental and physical (*especially the eyes*! This was my breakthrough discovery)), I would carefully monitor my drowsiness level. If I felt I was getting too awake, I would jettison the MILD/SSILD and just concentrate 100% on relaxation. Then I took a more hybrid approach, of doing "relaxed" MILD and "relaxed" SSILD: do the techniques, but stay in a state of relaxation.

I hope that is of some help, if you have any questions about this please don't hesitate to ask!

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Originally Posted by Ginsan

I really really don't like homework and once I start doing it I get sleepy within 5-10 minutes and after 30-45 minutes of it I can be sure that I fall asleep within 10 minutes of laying in bed. Don't you have something like that to bore the crap out of you?

EDIT: I just saw that you're 44, a few years older than my dad. I really have no idea of what would bore the crap out of a 44 year old man.. I'll try to think of something in the coming moments

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Haha... You make me laugh all the time Ginsan. :)

Sir Tygar, I made a considerable effort to help you out. Now please, read on.

First your main problem
You become too alert too quickly after waking up. My solution:
Keep a pen and paper very close to your bed and scribble 2 or 3 words really quickly in a sleepy zombie mode without giving it too much thought and quickly fall back to sleep. You don't need any light, you can decode your handwriting when you wake up :P. As you become better at this, you will be able to figure out the dream from the tag words better, you will chose your tag words better, even though you are in a sleepy zombie mode. This way you can maximize your recall without having to become alert. You can use visualization and autosuggestions like "I will scribble some tag words and quickly continue to sleep". It's just a theory, but it might solve your dilemma.

But what if you still wake up?
1, cool down the bedroom, a scientist said that anything above 68 fahrenheit (20 celsius) will make it harder to sleep. He also said that putting socks on to warm your feet will cool down your body. 2, Don't force your eyes closed. This works really good for me but only in a very dark room. When you are not sleepy, keeping your eyes closed takes effort, is very annoying and keeps you awake, so just ignore your eyes. If the room is very dark you can just open your eyes and let them relax, because the inside of your eye is just as dark as the room and it should make no difference to keep them open or closed. 3, rocking from side to side. Stand up and gently sway from left to right for a few minutes. This is surprisingly relaxing. 4, use your imagination. This one is really obivious but I am still listing it. You could count sheep, build your dreamhouse/perfect room, think about pleasant events, imagine yourself on a swinging chair.5, Hug your wife. Seriously man, if cuddling with your loved one at the end the day, in the comfort of your own bed and loose warm jammies doesn't make you snooze off into dreamland man, I just don't know... I may be wrong, because I haven't had a single girlfriend, let alone sleep with one. But I do imagine it's a really comfortable way to fall asleep.

I really hope you try out my ideas and that this has solved your problem, have a good day, sir :)

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Originally Posted by Sensei

Haha... You make me laugh all the time Ginsan. :)

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Thanks :D I know I'm a funny guy, I like making people laugh at silly jokes and I think making silly jokes out of most things in life lies at the core of my soul. And being told I'm a funny guy is something I enjoy more than almost anything else :movingmrgreen:

@Ginsan. Yeah, some are born with it. I am actually pretty funny when I am in a conversation. Not so much on the computer. I am not "extremely funny" but I am funnier than average. Mostly from study and graphs and things, and above all else, memorization. I am crazy. Haha. The funniest people seem to be born that way.

Tygar! I feel bad. I was supposed to give you some things to get better at falling asleep.

my method
I have heard many people go with "relaxing your body to sleep" way too much thought energy for me, plus if I think about my breathing for one second, I am up for the rest of the night (I now have to forget about that before I get to bed! :/)!
It is similar to that though. It is a type of meditation. I have seen it before, but I have no idea where.
Meditation is pretty much just getting a reign on your mind and trying to think about one thing. Or nothing(depending on type of meditation).
Going to sleep is forgetting about your body (losing consciousness) seems similar to me.
I start with my whole body. Feel everything that is on my body. My wife's leg, my clothes, the sheet, the weight of the comforter, the air on my face. I start at my foot and start "forgetting". I then move up my leg. Then to my other leg. Then arms(starting at hands). Then body. Ending with head. Now it is just my thoughts. Forget about them as well. Forget everything.


Kind of weird! I change it a bit when trying to WILD or during any WBTB.

After I have completely finished forgetting my body I think "I'm dreaming". Then I get further and further apart. If I think of an image I will stay awake, and if I think of " I'm dreaming" as words, that can also make me stay awake. I normally fall asleep like this and then DILD. Sometimes, after about a minute or two, I will realize that my thoughts are just going around in circles and make no sense. At this point I bring my "I'm dreaming" closer and then try to WILD. Sometimes I can trace my entire thought process from laying down to the dream, but still not realize that it is a dream.

Last use for it.
I wake up from a LD (or wake up from a dream and think that I might be able to DEILD). I can automatically tell if it will work. I instantly imagine my body, the one inbed. And I kick away from it. forget the whole thing instantly. Haha.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ginsan

Sir Tygar, I made a considerable effort to help you out. Now please, read on.

First your main problem
You become too alert too quickly after waking up. My solution:
Keep a pen and paper very close to your bed and scribble 2 or 3 words really quickly in a sleepy zombie mode without giving it too much thought and quickly fall back to sleep. You don't need any light, you can decode your handwriting when you wake up :P. As you become better at this, you will be able to figure out the dream from the tag words better, you will chose your tag words better, even though you are in a sleepy zombie mode. This way you can maximize your recall without having to become alert. You can use visualization and autosuggestions like "I will scribble some tag words and quickly continue to sleep". It's just a theory, but it might solve your dilemma.

But what if you still wake up?
1, cool down the bedroom, a scientist said that anything above 68 fahrenheit (20 celsius) will make it harder to sleep. He also said that putting socks on to warm your feet will cool down your body. 2, Don't force your eyes closed. This works really good for me but only in a very dark room. When you are not sleepy, keeping your eyes closed takes effort, is very annoying and keeps you awake, so just ignore your eyes. If the room is very dark you can just open your eyes and let them relax, because the inside of your eye is just as dark as the room and it should make no difference to keep them open or closed. 3, rocking from side to side. Stand up and gently sway from left to right for a few minutes. This is surprisingly relaxing. 4, use your imagination. This one is really obivious but I am still listing it. You could count sheep, build your dreamhouse/perfect room, think about pleasant events, imagine yourself on a swinging chair.5, Hug your wife. Seriously man, if cuddling with your loved one at the end the day, in the comfort of your own bed and loose warm jammies doesn't make you snooze off into dreamland man, I just don't know... I may be wrong, because I haven't had a single girlfriend, let alone sleep with one. But I do imagine it's a really comfortable way to fall asleep.

I really hope you try out my ideas and that this has solved your problem, have a good day, sir :)

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Thank you very much Ginsan. For the key words: I can try that. When I awake from a dream I usually only remember the very end (the last events just before awaking). What keeps me awake is when I start working my way back from the end to the beginning...which is like putting together a puzzle in my mind. If I just jot down a couple of key words from the end of my dream maybe I can work my way back after I wake up.

A cool bedroom is great. Currently I shut the heat off at night (the house will get down to the low 60's which is awesome!). I don't have any issues with having to force my eyes closed. Standing to rock from side to side could be an issue, but I can give it a shot. For me, even a quick trip to the bathroom in complete darkness can kill my sleep. I definitely do need to use my imagination more. I tend to get stuck on recalling the dream, and my mind keeps going back to trying to remember more details (racing mind). Hugging my wife in the middle of the night. This works very well when we first go to bed. But not so much in the middle of the night. It goes back to the cool bedroom point. If I snuggle up close to her we both begin to sweat within 10 min which makes it uncomfortable for both of us. Or, if she was sleeping comfortably, she just growls and elbows me to get me off of her. :huh2:

Thank you very much for your effort and your ideas. Some could definitely help

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Originally Posted by Sensei

@Ginsan. Yeah, some are born with it. I am actually pretty funny when I am in a conversation. Not so much on the computer. I am not "extremely funny" but I am funnier than average. Mostly from study and graphs and things, and above all else, memorization. I am crazy. Haha. The funniest people seem to be born that way.

Tygar! I feel bad. I was supposed to give you some things to get better at falling asleep.

my method
I have heard many people go with "relaxing your body to sleep" way too much thought energy for me, plus if I think about my breathing for one second, I am up for the rest of the night (I now have to forget about that before I get to bed! :/)!
It is similar to that though. It is a type of meditation. I have seen it before, but I have no idea where.
Meditation is pretty much just getting a reign on your mind and trying to think about one thing. Or nothing(depending on type of meditation).
Going to sleep is forgetting about your body (losing consciousness) seems similar to me.
I start with my whole body. Feel everything that is on my body. My wife's leg, my clothes, the sheet, the weight of the comforter, the air on my face. I start at my foot and start "forgetting". I then move up my leg. Then to my other leg. Then arms(starting at hands). Then body. Ending with head. Now it is just my thoughts. Forget about them as well. Forget everything.


Kind of weird! I change it a bit when trying to WILD or during any WBTB.

After I have completely finished forgetting my body I think "I'm dreaming". Then I get further and further apart. If I think of an image I will stay awake, and if I think of " I'm dreaming" as words, that can also make me stay awake. I normally fall asleep like this and then DILD. Sometimes, after about a minute or two, I will realize that my thoughts are just going around in circles and make no sense. At this point I bring my "I'm dreaming" closer and then try to WILD. Sometimes I can trace my entire thought process from laying down to the dream, but still not realize that it is a dream.

Last use for it.
I wake up from a LD (or wake up from a dream and think that I might be able to DEILD). I can automatically tell if it will work. I instantly imagine my body, the one inbed. And I kick away from it. forget the whole thing instantly. Haha.

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I can give this a shot too. I'm going to print this out and review it a few times.