Self explanatory, is it still wrong to murder/steal/anything immoral in reality in a dream? Does it matter whether or not the dream characters have any objective existence or not?
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Self explanatory, is it still wrong to murder/steal/anything immoral in reality in a dream? Does it matter whether or not the dream characters have any objective existence or not?
Personally I believe you should treat your dream characters with respect since they are projections of your mind, but whether if it's wrong or not I think it's down to you, for any form of reality is how you perceive it to be. But why not focus on all the positive things you could do in a LD rather than worrying about the morality of your actions. YOLTLO (You Only Live This Life Once)😜
Only thing that can come from behaving in a way you would find repulsive yourself in your LDs is - feeling bad about it.
A good argument against doing it - but if you want to experiment on and about the boundaries of your moral compass - find out, how certain things impact on you - go right ahead. They are figments of your imagination. I found, that I am not keen on doing that. I actually tried once - in the spirit of making myself completely aware that nothing I do in a dream has a real consequence. I flew about a group of elderly people with a long stick in my hands - hitting them on the head. A bit.
But I couldn't go on or through with it - they were frightened and a lady asked me in despair, why I would do that.
I didn't have an answer to that and felt ashamed then - so I flew somewhere else.
As they are insentient (as far as we know), I see no problem in doing whatever to them. It may even ensure you don't try it in real life. I wouldn't be a complete dick, but there's a lot of moral leeway.
I've yet to do any immoral things in my dreams, and im reluctant due to the rumors of "dream police".
I still believe in morality in dreams, mainly because you become more like what you practice, and even minor decisions made now can greatly affect the way you view things into the future. It depends on how you view morality-- is it always true, is it flexible? I'd prefer to be consistent with the way I treat people and situations rather than let the power and godlike nature of lucidity overcome me. It might be fun at the time, like many things that don't turn out to be so in the long run (heroin springs to mind), but you may miss out on wonderful things in your own personal life.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power, as sayeth the venerable and most ancient Honest Abe.
I'm going to be the jerk here who confesses that all my sense of morality diminishes the moment I become aware that I'm dreaming.
No, really--I treat my DCs like crap while I'm lucid, the only exception being if I'm involved in a really high-paced or emotional plot in the dream and I'm personally attached to the DCs around me. Otherwise, to me DCs are only in the dream for me to use when I need something done or kill when they're in my way. I can't count the number of times a girl has come to me crying about her ex and I interrupt halfway something like, "Okay, that's all fine and dandy, now can you be my test subject for potion effects in lucid dreams?"
To me, it doesn't matter what DCs think or feel because, well, they don't think or feel in the first place! They're just simulations, in my opinion at least--in reality people are other conscious beings with thoughts and emotions which influence their decisions just like yourself, but in a dream people are just... things that move.
Anyway, my subconscious is a jerk to me too, so it works for the both of us.
However, I think what's important to understand here is that none of us can tell you what's right or wrong in a dream, and the reason being because we can't tell you what's right or wrong in reality, either. Morality by itself doesn't actually exist, human beings are the ones who say what's right or wrong...and, well, whatever we believe is right or wrong is different for everybody. Stealing isn't "wrong" and giving isn't "right," it's us as humans who believe that. You never know, a planet some billions of lightyears away might have aliens who murder each other to show appreciation.
So, really here, you need to think about what you believe. Do you think it's wrong to treat DCs unfairly, or do you think it's okay? If a DC was in front of you right now, do you think it would be fine not to treat them the same way you treat people in real life? In other words: if you think it's right, do it. If you think it's wrong, don't do it. I know it doesn't really answer your question, but the question you asked is something you need to answer yourself, based on your own beliefs. Do you believe treating DCs what's considered immoral in real life isn't wrong?
And remember, nobody should judge you on your morality, since it is your own personal beliefs after all. And not to mention, this is all going to happen in a lucid dream, where you have the whole world to yourself. ;-)
youre not a jerk maxis because its just a dream its not like youre actually committing atrocities
Morality is up to you, in lucid dreaming just as in waking life. You don't have to be a goody two shoes all the time, but be prepared to deal with the consequences. If you violate your own sense of morality in a lucid the dream will probably punish you for it - though of course sometimes dreams punish you for no reason at all, so if you don't mind it turning nightmarish then have at it.
Morality exists because we make it exist and give it value in our waking life, I think that it's key to treat the situations and people the same way you would in real life, not because they deserve it or they have feelings, but because empathy is a skill that can be practiced. Being mean makes you worse at empathizing by putting the focus on YOUR thoughts, YOUR feelings, YOUR desires. Holding yourself to standards is the first step to actually growing up-- not in the way the world sees it, but in a truer, more spiritual sense of maturity. Plus, it's not hard. The payoffs far exceed the minute amount of self-control that it takes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ageofthunder
Um. Was that a joke with the dream police?Quote:
Originally Posted by ageofthunder
If so - pretty easy to miss the irony - esp. without seeing your second post. :wink:
It matters if you want it to be apart of your person in waking life. In dreams we don't make smart decisions all the time. Even if were lucid. But if you end up massacring a large sum of innocent people in the dream because you really wanted to dream of killing innocent people than yes. It's very wrong. : P Taking stuff in dreams isn't wrong cause it belongs to no one.
I always treat DC's in my dreams with respect just because that's how I feel like.. BUT, In hostile situations It happens that I try to beat the crap out of a DC, if I get threatened by them. In one of my (usually) non-lucid dream, I had a really good fight with some DC in a bar that started out of nowhere as I remember, and after I had beaten him down until he finally gave up. Then he said that he was sorry for starting the fight and regreted everything. So the dream took the turn with that we apologized to each other, and it all ended with a friendly hug. The End!
Just to summarize everything. Do what your heart tell you to do. But to be respectful towards DC's is probably always the best and most enjoyable way to go! :cheers:
^ Haha yeah, those DCs that are there only to kick your ass, threaten you, or harass you deserve to be beat down hard! Anything less would be immoral. The dream world is not exactly civilized.
Awake I am a pretty moral guy. If there are dream police I'd be in prison for being a sex predator and guilty of child molestation, violence with intent to kill, and other crimes. But at other times in dreams I am decent. Point is, you can't always be fully in control....at least I cant.
There are some great, balanced answers already, so I can't add much.
I personally find that projecting positive energy generates better results for me.
My dreams often reflect my own feelings. I think most people find this to be true in some ways at least, eg. feeling confident about your lucid powers/abilities will increase your success rate much more than if you're feeling doubtful.
So by this logic, actions that you feel morally comfortable with will probably result in more positive outcomes than morally questionable activities.
Even in situations where DCs are being hostile, I find that remaining friendly and showing them love/empathy usually works much better than trying to fight back. They soon start to reflect my energy, and often become helpful companions.
What we practice, we tend to become better at.
If you practice immoral behaviour, you will become more skillful at it. If you practice moral behaviour, you will become more skillful at that.
Nothing we do in life, whether in waking reality or in dreams, is without consequences.
People of different cultures use lucid dreaming to train for the real life since the beginnings.
I think that the things you do in the lucid dreams affects the way you take decisions in real life.
By the way I respect the people that use LD to have fun, like a videogame (Our brain is a supercomputer), but it could be dangerous depending of the mental strength of the dreamer!!
Personally I'd say it's no more wrong then it is to kill characters in a video game. People have varying degrees of morality though and this subject is not universal it is relative. In my own view point I find having moral issues over something that isn't real is kind of silly. It's kind of killing yourself really I wouldn't say it's moral issue, but I guess one could argue it could harm your own sense of self love and/or respect or if it's so easy to kill these projections of yourself it could signal a lack of self respect in the first place. Just a thought that crossed my mind it may not have anything to do with self love but I'm just trying to give a alternative perspective.
Being in a dream is like watching a movie or reading a story, but more interactive and immersive. One similarity is that it's just a fantasy, a simulation of reality. If you're not lucid then you don't understand it's not real, but at the same time you also have little to no control over your own actions either - you're following the dream script. Terrible things can happen in dreams - to you or things that you do. They don't carry any moral impact, for several reasons. One being that it's all just a fantasy scenario in your own mind, created by your subconscious which as we all know is primitive and has no morality. I mean, it sends predators to hunt you through nightmares, and puts you in terrible situations all the time! It can send hordes of zombies or alien monsters bent on destroying the earth - in a context like that, so bizarre and utterly surreal, how can your actions carry any moral meaning? In fact, if it were a real scenario, your moral responsibility would be to kill as many zombies or monsters as possible, unless of course they turn out not to actually be monsters.
The main difference with a lucid dream is that you have some conscious volition - you can decide on your actions. But you also know that you're in a world entirely created by your subconscious, where there are no other people. Unless of course you believe in shared dreaming or dream telepathy or something similar - like the possibility that there are other entities you can meet there. But even if this is the case (any of the above), it's still just a fantasy simulation, but with other people also sending their dream avatars. I mean, if it is a shared dream, then killing somebody else will have no more effect on them than if they were having a nightmare of their own and being killed by some monster or murderer, right? You wake up and laugh because it was all just a dream. The same would apply to something like rape - I've been sexually molested in dreams in the past and they didn't scar me emotionally or anything. They were just dreams, and that's the way dreams are after all. So yeah, if there is such a thing as shared dreaming then it would be like an MMORPG where you kill people indiscriminately and nobody gets hurt, then you can reboot and do it all again.
Though I can certainly understand where highly moralistic people, the religious or spiritual, would believe that regardless of any real-world consequences or lack thereof, dreams would be a testing ground where you must remain vigilant and exercise discretion.
However, I do think that if you do things in a lucid dream that you don't feel right about then you'll suffer pangs of conscience. Killing hordes of giant rampaging gorillas who are trying to destroy the earth is a good thing, but killing innocent bystanders can make you feel awful, and that can last throughout the day. There really isn't any similar problem with video games, because you fully understand that it's just pixels on a screen, but even though we know dreams are only simulations, we're emotionally tied in to what's going on in there.
I look at it like a video game. Is it arguably wrong to kill someone, no matter who they are? Yes. But do I go out in video games and kill civilians? No. I kill enemies in games and I'd do the same in a lucid dream because it's all fiction and it's not going to keep me up at night.
As for the characters, I think they're just about as real as your daytime fantasies. Highly complex, life-like avatars consciously or unknowingly created by you. And just like fantasies, they're meant to give the impression they're real, and so many people have claimed their DC's were convinced they were real people. If they didn't, it'd be like asking a game character, "You know this is just a video game and you're not real, right?" So maybe they're just doing their job when they say in the dreams that you're crazy and they are real.
Bottom line is I know there aren't real, living human beings inside my head. That said, I don't do in fantasy, what I'd find deplorable in real life. You wouldn't steal candy from a child, so why is a dream an excuse to do it? It's not.