Dream Journaling Pointless For Lucid Dreaming?

I am beginning to think there is no actual need for a dream journal to increase the odds of a person becoming lucid in any case and I only think it solely help with recall and nothing but it. In my own experience I have not record my non lucid dreams for 5 months now, with in those months my recall isn't anywhere it was at when I did journal non lucid dreams but it didn't decrease my odds on getting lucid. When I do get an LD I remember it with no problem even if my non lucid dreams frequently have been fragments. Because recall when conscious is always great in the moment.

I am now looking at dream journaling non lucid dreams only helps people who are not able to get lucid and remain unaware in their dreams to help recall them, but plays no relation to conscious recall. That's why to me it seems to be a waste of effort if someone reason for dream journaling is to have lucid dreams thinking that with better recall we'll make you more aware in your dreams. People have stated that they have had very vivid non lucid dreams that point/show dream signs at every corner and yet they still didn't realize even though they can recall it all and how the sensation felt.
Another example for why recall plays no benefit to lucidity is try right now to think about majority of the things you've done in the pass five days. If you're anything like my memory recall you'll have trouble remembering all the decision and actions you've made and yet you were still conscious then and you're still conscious now. You're more aware right now than you are in non lucid dreams recalling majority of it.
So is it really necessary to journal non lucid dreams in the hopes of it helping others obtain lucidity or is it truly not needed in someone goal to obtain a lucid dream?

Works for me

Keeps you focused on dreams and LDing more so it helps.

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Originally Posted by ViIe

I am beginning to think there is no actual need for a dream journal to increase the odds of a person becoming lucid in any case and I only think it solely help with recall and nothing but it. In my own experience I have not record my non lucid dreams for 5 months now, with in those months my recall isn't anywhere it was at when I did journal non lucid dreams but it didn't decrease my odds on getting lucid. When I do get an LD I remember it with no problem even if my non lucid dreams frequently have been fragments. Because recall when conscious is always great in the moment.

I am now looking at dream journaling non lucid dreams only helps people who are not able to get lucid and remain unaware in their dreams to help recall them, but plays no relation to conscious recall. That's why to me it seems to be a waste of effort if someone reason for dream journaling is to have lucid dreams thinking that with better recall we'll make you more aware in your dreams. People have stated that they have had very vivid non lucid dreams that point/show dream signs at every corner and yet they still didn't realize even though they can recall it all and how the sensation felt.
Another example for why recall plays no benefit to lucidity is try right now to think about majority of the things you've done in the pass five days. If you're anything like my memory recall you'll have trouble remembering all the decision and actions you've made and yet you were still conscious then and you're still conscious now. You're more aware right now than you are in non lucid dreams recalling majority of it.
So is it really necessary to journal non lucid dreams in the hopes of it helping others obtain lucidity or is it truly not needed in someone goal to obtain a lucid dream?

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It is true that lucid dreams in which we maintain lucidity, or do not continue on into the next dream period are easy to remember. On the other hand, those in which we lose lucidity, or those from which we fail to wake up--those dreams are at risk of being lost forever.

I think DJing everything is not always feasible. I know that when I have the time, I DJ everything, and when I don't have the time, I don't. But it's important to remember that recall is linked to lucidity--we tend to remember the things we become fully aware of, and awareness leads directly to lucidity. So I would argue that someone who has very vivid dreams has a much better chance of becoming lucid (and obviously for remembering lucid dreams) than someone who only has fragmented recall.

That being said, if you don't feel like you need the DJ anymore, maybe you don't. I know that I have had several slips (a few lately) where I've almost forgotten low-level lucid dreams due to shoddy recall. We've all probably forgotten a few amazing LDs in the course of our lives and practice as well. But the DJ certainly hurts nothing, and can only help.

Personally I have found that reading over my dream journal before falling asleep (especially the LDs) greatly increases my chance of having a LD. While I don't write down every single dream, I do write many of the non-lucid ones which are particularly amusing/interesting/important. Feel free to do what works for you though.

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Originally Posted by ThreeCat

It is true that lucid dreams in which we maintain lucidity, or do not continue on into the next dream period are easy to remember. On the other hand, those in which we lose lucidity, or those from which we fail to wake up--those dreams are at risk of being lost forever.

I think DJing everything is not always feasible. I know that when I have the time, I DJ everything, and when I don't have the time, I don't. But it's important to remember that recall is linked to lucidity--we tend to remember the things we become fully aware of, and awareness leads directly to lucidity. So I would argue that someone who has very vivid dreams has a much better chance of becoming lucid (and obviously for remembering lucid dreams) than someone who only has fragmented recall.

That being said, if you don't feel like you need the DJ anymore, maybe you don't. I know that I have had several slips (a few lately) where I've almost forgotten low-level lucid dreams due to shoddy recall. We've all probably forgotten a few amazing LDs in the course of our lives and practice as well. But the DJ certainly hurts nothing, and can only help.

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If that was the case then the people who can recall 3-5 or all their dreams should have gotten lucid during it. There shouldn't be an incident where someone can recall so much of their dream and not become conscious during it all. I do see some of the points that people have posted on how dream journaling can make a person more focus on the dreaming environment but due to being able to recall so much of the dream and not be able to get lucid makes me question that statement of yours. I've stated conscious recall as when you gain more conscious you will be more alert to the environment. Being able to react to things that normally the dream wouldn't have suspected you to react to.
The same can be said about nightmares, you can get vivid nightmares (which most nightmares are vivid) repeatedly and not realize it was dream unless they start teaching themselves to be more aware but that doesn't mean recall has help change the way they would have react to the situation, being conscious does.
I can get fragments all the time but if I am always more aware in the situation I will react differently in it despite me not knowing what has led me there to begin with. Can't say this can fully help with my statement but I am going to throw it out there anyway that some people get lucid randomly for no apparent reason, isn't that how all natural LD dreamers ( The naturals that discover lucid dreaming before knowing about it) start up as without relying on Dream journaling?

I agree that dream journaling can never hurt ( If someone is dream journaling just for the fun of it) but I want to make sure that it's worth the while of someone's effort and not hindering their lucid capacity.
Maybe it does vary for people on how they perceive being in a dream since others find it easier with journaling non lucid dreams but I also don't rule out the possibility that it could just be their mind set feeling good about thinking/doing more things about dreaming that can help them, meaning that could be the real cause and not the journaling.

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Originally Posted by ViIe

If that was the case then the people who can recall 3-5 or all their dreams should have gotten lucid during it. There shouldn't be an incident where someone can recall so much of their dream and not become conscious during it all.

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Lucidity is a complex phenomenon. We really only can talk about possibilities and probabilities, not certainties. I think it is much more likely for someone who recalls a lot of their dreams *and* sets intention to get lucid, than someone who recalls few dreams and intends to get lucid. Of course, someone setting strong intention to notice they're in a dream probably will get increased recall along for the ride on that intention.

Sensei formulates it in a way that makes sense to me: he says that lucidity requires both dream awareness (generally, recall) and state awareness (are you dreaming or not).

Who knows, maybe your LD rate would be increasing if you continued to journal? Don't underestimate the power of the subconscious -- if you show that the recall is not important to you (by not journaling it), overall dream awareness can fall and make lucidity stagnant or even decrease.

I'm personally of the opinion that high recall means your mind is "closer" to the process of dreaming, and that you are closer to getting lucid. Almost all of my high lucidity periods are proceeded by periods of increasing dream recall, in both dream length, detail, and vividness.

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If that was the case then the people who can recall 3-5 or all their dreams should have gotten lucid during it. There shouldn't be an incident where someone can recall so much of their dream and not become conscious during it all. I do see some of the points that people have posted on how dream journaling can make a person more focus on the dreaming environment but due to being able to recall so much of the dream and not be able to get lucid makes me question that statement of yours.

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Fair enough, but keep in mind, I did not say that recall = lucidity; I just think that someone who recalls lots of dreams is much more likely to have a lucid dream than someone whose recall is poor. This may be due to lucidity being lost with fragmented recall; but it may also be due to fragmented recall being a side effect of overall lack of dream awareness--not just in the dream, but upon waking as well. Either of these (and maybe both of them) lead to someone to not having as many lucid dreams as they might otherwise. I think a dream journal helps minimize these issues.

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Sensei formulates it in a way that makes sense to me: he says that lucidity requires both dream awareness (generally, recall) and state awareness (are you dreaming or not).

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This is basically what I was getting at, in a much more succinct formula.

You can definitely have LDs without DJing, but I strongly feel that it increases your chances of becoming lucid and in turn your frequency. I have made connections (that made me lucid) many times to previous dreams the same night or different nights...in addition to the traditional dream sign awareness that is aided by journaling. DJing is highly recommended for a reason, but if it is too tedious, it is better to keep up your other practices than to stop LD practices all together. The non-lucids can be a lot of fun to read down the road as well. Try to make it fun if you can.

I skimmed this and not sure if anybody already said this, but DJing isn't really supposed to make you lucid. It probably does help, but the main point is to increase recall. What good is it to have a lucid dream if you don't remember it? And of course journalling also helps in many other ways, like making it easier to spot dream signs.

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Originally Posted by fogelbise

You can definitely have LDs without DJing, but I strongly feel that it increases your chances of becoming lucid and in turn your frequency. I have made connections (that made me lucid) many times to previous dreams the same night or different nights...in addition to the traditional dream sign awareness that is aided by journaling. DJing is highly recommended for a reason, but if it is too tedious, it is better to keep up your other practices than to stop LD practices all together. The non-lucids can be a lot of fun to read down the road as well. Try to make it fun if you can.

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Really like this about not adding stress to the practice. I also remember reading in Dreaming Yourself Awake that Alan Wallace does not record all of his dreams--just those that are memorable to him. He also says, however, that your recall should already be very high if you choose to do this.

I do that too theses days, but as a result my recall has plummeted and now most days I just remember 1 frag.

It is possible to have a lot of lucid dreams without journaling. (I've been doing it for the past year or so). It's because total LD count = lucidity rate X number of opportunities. So, one of the best ways to have more lucid dreams is to have more opportunities. That means waking up more often each night. And dream journaling is one technique to improve opportunity count. Consider 3 different dreamers:

Dreamer A: 20% lucid rate X 1 opportunities/night X 7 nights/week = 1.40 LDs/week
Dreamer B: 15% lucid rate X 1 opportunities/night X 7 nights/week = 1.05 LDs/week
Dreamer C: 10% lucid rate X 3 opportunities/night X 7 nights/week = 2.10 LDs/week

Dreamer C has most the lucids per week even though their success rate is lowest because they have more opportunities. Dreamers A and B have the same number of opportunities per week. Dreamer A has more lucids because their rate is higher, but the difference of just 0.35 LDs per week might be hard to notice unless you track it over a long time. And obviously, these are idealized models. With a more realistic experience where lucidity rate rises and falls based on many other factors, it would be even harder to detect and measure the difference.

I didn't even consider the effect of dream journalling on lucidity rate, but let's assume it is small. Everything else being equal, a small change in lucidity rate (less than 5%) might be unnoticeable to casual observation. However, journaling can have a big and obvious impact on the number of opportunities per night.

My point is that dream journaling is a very good way to train yourself to wake up more often and have many good opportunities for MILD/SSILD/WILD/DEILD induction every night. Of course it's not the only way. And once you've developed the habit of waking up, you might not need to actually write in a journal to keep it up. So for someone looking to increase their number of lucids, they should first look at their number of opportunities. If it's only 1-2 per night, then it can definitely get better and journaling is an effective way to improve that. If their wake-per-night count is already high (3+) with or without journaling, then you need to look at lucidity rate. For that, journaling alone might not be the biggest factor. Nonetheless, journaling may be a supporting factor to other techniques like dreamsigns, intention, and discipline.

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Originally Posted by ThreeCat

Really like this about not adding stress to the practice. I also remember reading in Dreaming Yourself Awake that Alan Wallace does not record all of his dreams--just those that are memorable to him. He also says, however, that your recall should already be very high if you choose to do this.

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Definitely! (ThreeCat, I found out, is well-read in lucid dreaming books by the way.) Other things that you can do that may not add stress to your practice and are easier to maintain include using brief tags written down (or memorized=most useful for same night connections between dreams to make you lucid) and using a voice to text app on your phone or computer.

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Originally Posted by ThreeCat

Fair enough, but keep in mind, I did not say that recall = lucidity; I just think that someone who recalls lots of dreams is much more likely to have a lucid dream than someone whose recall is poor. This may be due to lucidity being lost with fragmented recall; but it may also be due to fragmented recall being a side effect of overall lack of dream awareness--not just in the dream, but upon waking as well. Either of these (and maybe both of them) lead to someone to not having as many lucid dreams as they might otherwise. I think a dream journal helps minimize these issues.

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Ok I see/experience fully on what you were implying there. I almost completely forgot my LD despite me knowing in the dream for a short time period that I was lucid however an FA occurred which resulted me in losing lucidity and I stay in a non lucid dream for a little while till I woke up. At first I couldn't remember why I knew/felt like I was in a lucid dream in till after 4 minutes the experience came back to me, I also agree with you that waking up from a dream is an issue that dream journaling can fix in both cases for non lucid dreaming and lucid dreaming. I understand a little more now but back when I journal my non lucid dreams my recall was really great but my lucidity rarely/never occur like it does now. Now that I only focus my intention on awareness instead of recall I assume that may have played a factor to all this and I wanted to make sure dream journaling isn't making a person only focus on being unconscious in the dream so that they can recall better.
But you're also right Fryingman there is no certainties in these possibility so I guess it relies on to the person experience with dream journaling or not. Thanks to all for helping me get a better understanding about dream recall and how it effects with dream journaling any type of dreams.