I took about 8mg of melatonin last night and I still can't recall my dreams. Melatonin has only helped me about 2 times, then stopped. Could've I gotten immune (or something) to it?
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I took about 8mg of melatonin last night and I still can't recall my dreams. Melatonin has only helped me about 2 times, then stopped. Could've I gotten immune (or something) to it?
Melatonin does not necessarily promote recall, though it is supposed to create a REM rebound effect in the morning (which CAN promote recall). If melatonin is helping you fall asleep, then I suspect it is doing its job. If you've only used it a few times, it will be difficult to determine what it does and does not do for you.
Also, don't take it on a WBTB! The REM-suppressing qualities could impede morning recall.
Females should be careful with too high a dose of Melatonin, it will cause menstrual problems, it can cause spotty bleeding, and even shorten menstrual cycle, even cause spontaneous abortion. (In older women it may slow the onset of menopause tho). I take huge amounts of it for vividness and triggering but then I'm male (in males it can cause lower sperm count, and motility loss tho). You definitely want to keep it at no more than 10mg if you're a young female, and watch out for short cycle (like 2.5weeks) or random bleeding, Melatonin can certainly cause these things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooleymd
lies.
everyone produces melatonin in their brains. Melatonin does not have any of the side effects you claim.
OP get the natrol melatonin 10 MG dissolves best ones
Dosage matters. Everyone produces melatonin, yes, but at the pico-gram and micro-gram levels, not multi-milligram levels!Quote:
Originally Posted by pressure
1mg is enough for me to promote sleep, and 3mg usually suppresses early REM (certainly early recall is almost zero with 3mg at bedtime). If you take enough you could potentially be suppressing REM through the whole night, which would lead to less recall, not more.
With supplements, always start with minimal doses, and slooooooowwwwwllly work your way up if the smallest doses are ineffective. Make sure you make several attempts before concluding anything about a particular dosage, and give yourself several days of rest between supplement use so your body can recover.
I think I read somewhere that melatonin in high doses can be used as birth controlQuote:
Originally Posted by pressure
Yes I have read this too, but at some doses and ages of females it can be used in perimenopausal women to stabilize cycle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiny
I just think young women should be aware of risk of bleeding (and read your bottle, it clearly says not to use if pregnant or nursing)
People on here are always talking about using for sleep tho, I don't use it for sleep, I typically take at least 40mg and sometimes as much as like 100+ but I take it for vividness.
Tonight and tomorrow I am testing not using it to see if I still wake after every cycle and for effect on vividness. I have taken only 100mg 5HTP about 2 hours before initial sleep , I have still been waking after every dream but dreams do seem a bit less vivid. Interestingly I seem to have a bit of insomnia atm, but high serotonin following 5HTP can also cause this. Most nights on Melatonin I get at least some insomnia. I hope to get back to sleep at least one more time to see if the last dream is vivid. But I also haven't taken any B6 tonight so maybe I'm just not recalling as much dreaming. (my recall is always better on weekends, when I am more relaxed, and that is almost always when I become lucid)
If taken for sleep the proper dose is .3mg for young people, 1mg for a bit older, 1.5mg for middle aged, and 3mg for older people
High dose for lucid dreaming is like 50mg but I never take it all at once, I take it like 10 or 20 mg every cycle thru the night and I use Melatonin pills that are 5mg fast acting / 5mg slow release w/ 10mg b6.
The lack of toxicity is true, but it does have side effects, even now I notice less sadness, usually it makes me sad and on the way to work I cry a bit. It is known to act as a depressant. But a bit of crying and insomnia is all I notice.
It doesn't suppress rem in high dose, it causes vividness. Don't assume one dose's effects are going to be the same as another or that effects are linear.
For instance take 5HTP: I decided to have bit of fun one week and up the dose from 100 or 200 to much higher what do you think the effect would be. I usually take 100 or 200 for actual REM suppression. What does this dose do, it all but eliminates REM at the end of the first cycle and causes me to sleep thru the first 2 cycles. So what did 300 do, make me sleep more, no a bit less I woke up after less then 3 hours not more. And what did 500mg do I awoke after the first cycle with very intense dream. Why? Because 5HTP is transported to the brain, and then converted into Serotonin which causes intense dreams and at this level this effect prevailed. So don't assume that the effect of one dose will be the same as another. At low dose Melatonin causes sleep cycle adjustment and treats insomnia, at High dose it promotes sleep disruption and insomnia, its effects are not linear. I can only tell you for sure in me that at a high enough dose it promotes dream like hallucinations even while awake and can cause very vivid dreams.
All drugs work a bit different in different people the most common side effect of high dose Melatonin is supposedly headache, but I wouldn't know as I haven't have a real headache since like 1990 and am all but totally immune to them. But just because Melatonin is not toxic doesn't mean it doesn't have side effects of course it does. And the advice to start slow and build up is good advice. I would think young females would want to be aware of this specific risk in case they always have rock solid cycle and suddenly it goes haywire after taking Melatonin
Everyone also produces testosterone naturally in the body, but we know that injecting large amounts into the body is unwise, and can lead to many health problems. The long term effects of Melatonin are still being determined, but in the short term, it seems to be relatively safe, even in high amounts. However:Quote:
everyone produces melatonin in their brains.
WebMD seems to correlate with some of cooley's info. Best to be safe when using supps, s'what I always say! :eh:Quote:
Special Precautions & Warnings:
Pregnancy and breast-feeding: Melatonin is POSSIBLY UNSAFE to use during pregnancy. Do not use it. Melatonin might also interfere with ovulation, making it more difficult to become pregnant.
Not enough is known about the safety of using melatonin when breast-feeding. It is best not to use it.
Infants and children: Melatonin should not be used in most children. It is POSSIBLY UNSAFE. Because of its effects on other hormones, melatonin might interfere with development during adolescence.
Bleeding disorders: Melatonin might make bleeding worse in people with bleeding disorders.
High blood pressure: Melatonin can raise blood pressure in people who are taking certain medications to control blood pressure. Avoid using it.
Diabetes: Melatonin might increase blood sugar in people with diabetes. Monitor your blood sugar carefully, if you have diabetes and take melatonin.
Depression: Melatonin can make symptoms of depression worse.
Seizure disorders: Using melatonin might increase the risk of having a seizure.
Transplant recipients: Melatonin can increase immune function and might interfere with immunosuppressive therapy used by people receiving transplants.
I would agree at least that Natrol is one of the best brands, maybe if they made a 10mg 100% slow release without B6 or with only 5mg then I would buy some.
Last night after 100mg 5HTP and no melatonin or B6 my dreams did seem less vivid
also I still had insomnia (Serotonin from 5HTP can cause this)
Tonight I took 200mg 5HTP and late tonight I will take some B6 (like 50mg) to see if I can have enough recall to determine if they are really less vivid, assuming I get back to sleep. Sleep disruption is a side effect of Melatonin but I don't consider it one, all the better to remember more dreams by waking up, tho I did wake after every cycle I went to sleep for last night.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThreeCat
Yeah testosterone is known to cause health issues if taken in massive does. This is known.
But melatonin is non toxic and shooting up yourself with insane amounts or eating insane amounts will only straighten your immune system in the long run
I would think most of the information on melatonin would be suppressed by big pharma
if melatonin could kill ebola, which is the worlds most dangerous virus, what else could it do ?
the side effect of eating melatonin is getting sleepy. but it has another effects on your body
the real reason people get cancer is because the pineal glands become calcified and hard and wont produce melatonin to fight off the cancer
A new report published in the Journal of Pineal Research states that an over-the-counter supplement might be one of our best defenses against the Ebola virus. Widely known as a remedy that encourages normal sleep-wake cycles, melatonin is readily available for purchase online or at local drug stores. And yet, researchers have long recognized that melatonin is far more than just a simple aid for sleep -- it's also a potent antioxidant and treatment for sepsis, a condition associated with Ebola virus infections. The supplement also targets other Ebola symptoms such as endothelial disruption, disseminated intravascular coagulation and multiple organ hemorrhage.
Unexpected benefits of melatonin
Melatonin is synthesized not only by the pineal gland but also by other organs in tiny amounts -- like the retina, thymus, gastrointestinal tract and bone marrow. The hormone plays a crucial role in sleep and circadian rhythms, scavenging free radicals, antioxidant functions, immunity, reproduction and mood regulation. Melatonin is known to combat bacterial and viral infections as well. Examples include chlamydial infections and Mycobacterium tuberculosis, among others. According to a review published in the journal Recent Patents on Endocrine, Metabolic & Immune Drug Discovery:
"Melatonin's protective action against sepsis is suggested to be due to its antioxidant, immunomodulating and inhibitory actions against the production and activation of pro-inflammatory mediators. Use of melatonin has been beneficial in treating premature infants suffering from severe respiratory distress syndrome and septic shock. It has a potential therapeutic value in treating septic shock and associated multi organ failure in critically ill patients in addition to its antimicrobial and antiviral actions."
Although septic shock is normally linked with gram-negative bacteria, researches believe Ebola virus infections share a similar characteristic -- namely, extreme lymphocyte apoptosis (white blood cell death).
Moreover, the deadly nature of an Ebola infection is, more or less, attributed to the destruction of the endothelial lining of blood vessels. The damage isn't caused directly by the virus, but rather from a surge of immune and inflammatory responses. "Theoretically, if available treatments had the capacity to stop or reduce this excessive immuno-inflammatory cascade of reactions, it would provide some protection against the disruption of the endothelium and the coagulation abnormality caused by the Ebola virus; therefore, it would likely reduce the death rate," noted scientists at the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio and the Gulhane Medical School in Ankara, Turkey. The team believes that melatonin could stop this sequence, thereby helping maintain the stability of blood vessels.
"Melatonin is a potent free radical scavenger and an anti-inflammatory agent. It would predictably limit the oxidative stress and inflammatory injury that occurs in the infected endothelial cells and preserve their integrity. The ability of melatonin to protect the integrity of the endothelium of blood vessels was observed decades ago when melatonin reduced vascular permeability and inhibited the plasma leakage from capillaries caused by ischemia/reperfusion damage; this action has been reaffirmed many times subsequently."
Researchers at Saint Louis University School of Medicine agree:
Small Pox is the worlds most dangerous virus, it just isn't out in the wild anymore
(fortunately I'm vaccinated against it)
Ebola is a good half-billion plus kills away from catching up to it.
Tonight I'll be taking 50 - 80 mg of Melatonin So I guess I'll be Ebola proof, I'm totally gonna be ready for a zombie Apocalypse too.
Wow! Thanx pressure
Your post made me go a Googling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pressure
Pineapples, Bananas, Barley, Oats, Sweet corn, Rice, Tomatoes.
The researchers found pineapples, bananas, and oranges were able to increase melatonin presence significantly. Pineapples increased the presence of aMT6s over 266% while bananas increased levels by 180%. Oranges were able to increase melatonin by approximately 47%.
I found that here
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8 Foods to Naturally Increase Melatonin for Better Sleep : Conscious Life News
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Get enough melatonin-boosting foods in your daily diet.
By increasing melatonin through food, you can naturally increase the production of our anti-aging and fat burning hormones.
Good food choices include
oats, corn, rice, barley, ginger, tomatoes and bananas. Calcium and magnesium are also involved in melatonin production.
Found here
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Five Ways to Boost Your Melatonin | Jamieson
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Wow! long ago, I remember a powerful lucid dreamer swearing by " Tart Cherries" . Look what I just found while Googling "boost melatonin".
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Foods With Natural Melatonin | NutritionFacts.org
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(...)
They found that participants did in fact sleep a little better on the cherry juice. The effect was modest, but significant. Some, for example, fell to sleep a few minutes faster and had 17 fewer minutes of waking after sleep onset (waking up in the middle of the night). It was no insomnia cure, but it helped—without side effects.
How do we know it was the melatonin, though? They repeated the*study, this time measuring the melatonin levels, and indeed saw a boost in circulating melatonin levels after the cherry juice, but not after the Kool-Aid. Similar results were found in people eating the actual cherries—seven different varieties boosted melatonin levels and actual sleep times. The effects of all the other phytonutrients in cherries can’t be precluded—maybe they helped too—but if it*is*the melatonin, there are more potent sources than cherries.
(...)
Sweet cherries have 50 times less melatonin than tart ones; dried cherries appear to have none.
Orange bell peppers have a lot,
as do walnuts —and
a tablespoon of flaxseeds has about as much as a tomato.*
A few spices are pretty potent:
just a teaspoon of fenugreek or mustard seeds has as much as a few tomatoes. *The bronze and silver go to almonds and raspberries, though. And the gold goes to gojis. Goji berries were just off the charts.
Aren’t goji berries really expensive, though? Not if you buy them as lycium berries (from an Asian store).*
This page (below) is great, but looks hard to copy
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Heal Yourself At Home
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I'll try to copy it (cross-fingers)
EAT FOODS RICH IN TRYPTOPHAN AND MELATONIN
*
♦******Tryptophan-rich foods:
*
√*********Protein*-*turkey, chicken, fish, pheasant, partridge, cottage cheese, eggs, nuts, milk, cheese.
*
√*********Non-Protein*-bananas, wheat germ, avocados, and the legumes (beans, peas, pulses, soy)
*
♦******MELATONIN-rich foods:
√*********Tart cherries:*Montmorency cherries (~13 ng/g) - one cherry =~10ng, equiv. to amount of MELATONIN in blood;**Balaton cherries (~2 ng/g)
Walnuts –**~3.5 ng/g*(approx. 1/2 of a walnut half / 1 g* i.e a walnut half = 7 ngMELATONIN)
√*********Sunflower seeds*(29 ng/g),*Celery*(7ng/g),Bananas*(236 pg/mg)
EXERCISE BOOSTSMELATONIN
♦******Study demonstrates that exercise boostsMELATONIN*–*a*study involving 7 healthy women demonstrated that 1 hour of exercise on a stationary bicycle could double or triple*MELATONIN*levels. Other studies have also demonstrated that physical exercise can boost MELATONIN*levels. However, do not exercise right before bed, which has a stimulating effect;
DAYTIME SUNLIGHT EXPOSURE
*
♦******Go out in the sun –several studies*confirm that natural sunlight exposure increases*MELATONINlevels. This is not surprising, since bright light is known to increaseSEROTONIN*production, preventing depression.
Sunlight – Let there be Light!
AVOID LIGHT AT NIGHT
*
♦******Reduce light exposure in the evening -*artificial light sources and excessive light exposure after darkness onset in modern societies*can lower MELAONIN production by desynchronizing your biological clock, making your body think it’s still daytime;
Thanx again pressure.
Melatonin sure is interesting, to add something to the positive list:
Melatonin for Drug-Induced Metabolic Syndrome - NEJM Journal Watch
New to me that it's antidepressive, but that's an extra bonus when taken with mood-stabilizers and antipsychotics like they are testing it.Quote:
In an early study, melatonin seems to decrease the weight gain that occurs with atypical antipsychotics. [and mood-stabilizers]
it says the word antipsychotic not that it's an antidepressiveQuote:
Originally Posted by StephL
(says it lessens some side effects of people on atypical antipsychotic meds)
Inexperienced dreamers always wonder what would happen if they just stopped running from their monsters in dreams...
Perhaps its time for a real life experiment, we put you into a corridor with two psych patients at the end of it, one is depressed they keep screaming at you "I'm gonna kill myself, I'm gonna kill myself" as you watch them they seem to be sitting there doing pretty much nothing at all they don't even seem to have the will to get up. The other patient suffers from psychosis, they seem to be very busy fashioning some sort of weapon from whatever they can find, and then they begin to scream "I'm gonna kill you, I'm gonna kill you". You have to decide which one to run from...
You said it would be antidepressive, not the article of course:Quote:
Originally Posted by cooleymd
Or was that about another substance? If so - soz.Quote:
The lack of toxicity is true, but it does have side effects, even now I notice less sadness, usually it makes me sad and on the way to work I cry a bit. It is known to act as a depressant. But a bit of crying and insomnia is all I notice.
:wtf: WTF?Quote:
Inexperienced dreamers always wonder what would happen if they just stopped running from their monsters in dreams...
Perhaps its time for a real life experiment, we put you into a corridor with two psych patients at the end of it, one is depressed they keep screaming at you "I'm gonna kill myself, I'm gonna kill myself" as you watch them they seem to be sitting there doing pretty much nothing at all they don't even seem to have the will to get up. The other patient suffers from psychosis, they seem to be very busy fashioning some sort of weapon from whatever they can find, and then they begin to scream "I'm gonna kill you, I'm gonna kill you". You have to decide which one to run from...
I had stopped taking the melatonin to see what effect it would have on vividness
I took 0mg of the stuff for 2 days (but continued with 5HTP 100mg then 200mg)
taking approx 60mg of B6 on the second night to better remember the dreams
to see if they really were less vivid
They did seem a bit less vivid to me, (Melatonin makes them more vivid, but after taking huge dose I do notice depressive effects)
Funny part is that when I woke up for the last time on the second day, it was from a dream where there were 3 other people in the room all sorting out white pills based on their supposed side effects.
Was just seeing if you could tell the difference between psychosis and depression, Some patients in that study had bipolar so maybe its more a matter of knowing when to run...
I ended up taking 110mg of melatonin since first waking last night. Lots of dreams but none lucid. In any case I have clearly staved off any y2k15 zombie apocalypse, we won't know for another 3 weeks if I've staved off Ebola have to wait out the incubation period...
Oh dear - I was about to edit, but I guess I better post again - I misunderstood you and sorry for that:
So are you saying Melatonin makes you depressive, cooleymd?Quote:
Originally Posted by cooleymd
That would be completely new to me, as the opposite would have been - unfortunate that you feel this way.
But I would like to know what your sources are to say it would be a "known depressant" - that would surely be a contraindication for alleviating side-effects for bipolar people with it then, wouldn't it? But they do give it in that study.
It just make me feel a bit sad, crying is a side effect that is sometimes seen.
some of its depressive effect may be from disrupting circadian rhythm
I started taking it at like 5 or 10 mg and just kept increasing the dose
then I tried spreading the dose through the night since I wake up after every cycle
eventually I reached doses that caused waking hallucinations (visual)
the best one was of a flip book, I was lying in bed eyes closed and suddenly among the hallucinations came a flip book with the face of a girl hand drawn on each page, the book was flipping and I realized my right (?dream?) hand was flipping it, I could only see part of the image immediately upon realizing this, my left (?dream?) hand came up and stopped the book flipping it back and opening it wider. Then I could see the full flip book image of the ink drawn girl as the book flipped, I tried to exert control as if it were a dream trying to directly control the dream hands, but guess they were just hallucination hands and I immediately lost the image.
I have had other cool hallucinations, once I was standing next to a conveyor belt and boxes and things were going by on it, they were ultra detailed, they looked completely real.
I don't try to take a huge dose at bed time, usually I start with 5HTP then after 3 hrs sleep awake and begin taking like 10Mg (5fast 5slow w/10mg of B6), then after one more round of 10mg, in the latter cycles I switch to 20mg (2 pills). The 5HTP turns into Serotonin which gives clarity and focus to dreams, the B6 helps with recall, and the Melatonin causes vividness. Sometimes I toss in DHEA which causes bizzareness in hopes of increase likeliness of triggering
Melatonin - Prevention.com
This article is talking about normal does .3 - 5 mg
if you look for high dose you will see people reporting crying
Precautions: Side effects include drowsiness, decreased attention, and balance problems 6 hours after taking it, so make sure you can get full night's rest; melatonin can also cause stomach pain and headaches. When used with certain antidepressants, melatonin can cause depression and other mental health concerns.
I have seen other references to depressive effects it is a sedative after all
http://www.livescience.com/42066-mel...ent-facts.html
...melatonin may cause side effects including headache, daytime sleepiness, short-lived depression symptoms, stomach cramps, dizziness and irritability.
elsewhere in the article:
...Melatonin also regulates the start of menstruation, the length of ovulation cycles and menopause, according to the University of Maryland Medical Center.
this is the reason I brought up the side effects related to high dose for the OP
I'm not too worried for myself obviously (I probably should watch my blood sugar more closely tho)
LOL....damnQuote:
Originally Posted by cooleymd
Riight - thank you for the sources - very interesting! :)
You've been taking about twice as much as is given to cancer-patients, no wonder you warn of side-effects, surely justified when talking more than 50 mg...
So there are some studies which point towards benefits against depression and others which rather found the opposite:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveScience
Anyway - what a fascinating little molecule!Quote:
Originally Posted by Prevention
Edit: I take 3 - 6 mg at bedtime and it helps me enormously against my falling asleep problems, which I had in the past at times battled with red wine. That was definitely a bad idea, while I do not notice anything at all in terms of side effects from Melatonin at that low a dose.
Taking 15 mg once did seem to bring me more vivid dreams, and I believe I also got lucid, but with day-time work at the side and it was only one trial, says nothing, really.
I was very tired the next day, guessing 15 mg would have been too much. Not enough data by far to say anything about Melatonin and my dreaming, but I'm happy with having it just to find into sleep.
Sleeping too much has actually been shown to worsen depression on it's own, so in that light, a connection seems likely...
Yes the effect of help depression vs cause depression is probably one of stabilize circadian rhythm vs disrupt rhythm. If you take it for sleep it should help stabilize you, but if you take it for lucid dreaming (high dose) it might make you have symptoms of depression, for me it makes me cry a bit :morecrying:
But it can cause many symptoms like upset stomach, headache, irritability everyone will be different
I usually only take 50 to 80mg
last night I took 80mg and I did trigger just at the time I normally wake up, I had an epic fight for stability in the VOID, I paralyzed and unparalyzed many times, for perhaps more than 3 minutes (I will post about this epic battle with emptiness elsewhere)
Until that is proven true, I would suggest against that lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Tiny