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I went through the entire week of prospective memory training given in TWOLD by Stephen LaBerge. I missed 1 target and another just never occurred throughout the day. I personally find the prospective memory exercise to be rather pointless. Has anyone here ever found it beneficial in their lucid dreaming attempts?
Yes I find it really useful, and its the main component in DILD in a sense. Now, in ETWOLD, I find the exercises to be a bit overdone. If you can train yourself, and create your own way of building up your prospective memory it will grow onto you alot easier and also help with your lucid dreaming alot. Find your own way, whether it be simply reminding yourself to do a reality check or anything else. It doesn't have to be done the way the book explains in order to get it.
Try doing the same prospective memory exercise only while you're dreaming. Pick new targets you think will occur often in your dreams.
I found the PM exercises incredibly helpful, but I modified them fairly significantly from what LaBerge writes in ETWOLD. On days where I was very active in PM targets, I frequently got lucid that night.
I found the exercise as stated in ETWOLD had not enough practice. So I modified it:
- I set targets that I was almost 100% certain that I would encounter during the day
- chose targets that varied between: almost right away to a maximum of a few hours away, maybe once in a while set a "end of day" target but not very frequently
- maintained a sliding window of 4-5 targets at all times: when I realized I'd hit or missed one particular target, I immediately chose a new one: in this way I always had 4-5 outstanding active targets mixed between "probably soon" and "definitely later on"
I've gotten away from it and I think I need to return to it. Like I said, on those days I had around 10-12 targets (and was hitting most of them), I'd get lucid pretty reliably.
My personal opinion is that active PM goals keeps the brain's goal center activated, looking for clues to get lucid.
edit: I think it's important to tailor the day's targets to include ones that you're positive that you will encounter. Either that, or make a larger list of targets so that there's a lot of possibilities, so your goal center remains active.
Another important thing is to invest some time in memorizing each target: visualize encountering the target in a variety of possible scenarios, and include sight/sound/hearing/touch, all the senses, while visualizing the target occurring and repeating your mantra to yourself while you do so, e.g., "I'm dreaming"
Remember that Prospective Memory exercises like the ones mentioned by LaBerge don't have any direct impact in lucid dreaming: it doesn't make you lucid, it only improves your PM, and it's up to you to make use of your improved PM in the most beneficial way you can.
While you might not realize, you're already using PM to most/any of your lucid dreaming approaches, even WILD: what LaBerge preaches (certainly not without it's flaws) is a way that you can improve that so you can better apply intention-techniques to your lucid dreaming methods. This means things like dream signs, reality checks, they all are supposed to be "improved", but they are certainly not the only way to go regarding techniques like MILD or any other DILD technique.
In the end, remember that the chances that you can pinpoint exactly the mechanism for your lucidity is almost impossible (because you can't exactly tell the underlying reason that increased your awareness towards the dream) to find in every single lucid dream ;)
^^ Mild (haha) disagreement. I believe partaking in PM exercises helps keep your brain's goal center working in an active, searching state. Yes, you do need to direct it to the goal of lucid dreaming, but I think in and of itself is an important ingredient.
I go with FryingMan, it helps to keep your intention to LD in focus. I would suggest using the following mantra while falling asleep and after each awakening:" the next thing to do is to remember to recognize i'm dreaming". That helps to bring PM and intention together into the dream.
We're probably not disagreeing :P I can see why you'd think like that: you're a great practitioner of PM exercises. Still, like I stated above, things aren't always that clear. I'll give you an example:Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
Those PM exercises LaBerge mentioned? They're all useful and to some point effective, but you're not always engaging primarily in PM memory when you do them. When you state "active, searching state", that's not PM: it's mostly vigilance. You'd think it's the same, but studies like this show that while one is more automatic and related to priming (which might explain why the more you practice MILD, the better you become at it) the other requires a more conscious effort, the so called "active, searching state" that you associated with PM.
At the same time, oversimplifications are dangerous, and while I'm probably one of the biggest advocates of Prospective Memory, I can't stress enough the importance of moderation when determining causal relations on lucid dreaming induction techniques: researchers have yet an hard enough time to point correlates of lucidity (that last study that StephL ended disappointing about about was a great example) much less less-researched areas like MILD, because we can't even pinpoint exactly what's being influenced by PM or not. In the case of LaBerges, there's a HUGE difference between PM exercises and MILD. This is not to say they're not correlated or even cross-wired, but like you've read above, training PM doesn't mean you're using PM. While we're at it, Prospective Memory should always be considered under the assumptions that is a cognitive process that derives from many other cognitive processes: stuff like planning, intention, action, or even juggling several tasks, they all interfere with PM and vice-versa, so you can never pinpoint PM as the main culprit on lucid dreaming inductions: saying PM is an important task by itself is certainly correct, and while a bit stretched (goal is such an umbrella term), it also indeed helps your "brain goal center", but by doing that you have to say that you're entire brain is essential to lucid dreaming, because goal setting is merely a component of lucidity: would you say Sageous goes to bed with the intention of lucid dreaming? I'd argue that PM is virtually much less useful once certain entry-level barriers in lucid dreaming inductions are surpassed and as the frequency increases.
In fact, I think PM will eventually become another umbrella term: yes it's useful, yes a huge percentage of our everday-memories are probably prospective memories, and yes, PM is used on every single lucid dreaming task. But it shadows other just as important concepts: PM exercises will never be as useful as an approach of self-awareness, because with this later one, your scope grows so much farther than using a list of items that you prime yourself into detecting automatically. If you notice, self-awareness also requires PM, so in essence, it's just like the oversimplified concept of techniques for lucid dreaming (since most people are using all the techniques at the same time, even without realizing). Yes PM might be "an efficient portion of the process" granting it more attention than the other components, but the deal is....we still don't know that for sure ^^
Note I did NOT say that PM exercises cause a *conscious* "active, searching state," I agree that would better be characterized as "vigilance." I said PM exercises activate the (subconscious) goal center. The "goal center" becomes "vigilant" perhaps (I think it's better just to say "active" because "vigilance" is sort of implied in its function), but this is below the level of consciousness.
And I haven't done a proper PM day in over a year, I'll do a target here and there, but not like when I started. I'm more into mindfulness/vigilance these days.
PM is very useful for LDing!
I'll give you some examples:
_"I want to remember to turn off the stove after an hour"----after an hour----*lalalala watching TV whatever* *you suddenly remember "or right, it's time to turn off the stove"*
This is time based PM.
For LDing, you can do the same thing: *after a WBTB* "I will do a RC and realize I'm dreaming after a little while, maybe like after half an hour from now "(bcz you know you'll be dreaming after like half an hour)-----after this while----"there was something I wanted to do...of sh*t I'm in a dream!"
The more you train your PM, the easier this will be, and the more it'll work.
Also there is object base PM, which is like "next time I see the store, I'll remember to go get some drawing pens". Same thing but with dreamsigns.
Also the more you train your PM, the better. It's like a muscle. The stronger the PM is, the more effective your intentions will be.
Note: I can't understand this self awareness thing! Is it mindfulness? A sort of state mindfulness maybe? (State as in dreaming and waking state)
Mindfulness is the practice of being self-aware. Of *paying attention* to yourself: thoughts, environment, reactions. When you find that you've "zoned out," just gently bring back your attention to yourself. There is a lot of great guidance in the wonderful book, "Wherever You Go, There You Are: Mindfulness Meditation in Everyday Life".
Can I find it in PDF? ôvôQuote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
Amazon has it in ebook format.
Too poor for dat :( lol I'll Google it if there's a PDF. If not, oh wellQuote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
Edit: I found it in PDF! :D
I'm not sure if this is prospective memory, but I've found it to be very useful. I didn't do PM exercises, but I set PM intentions for my dreams. What I did, was to WBTB, then handwrite "I remember to remember my dreams" and "I remember to remember that I'm dreaming when I'm dreaming" around 15 times each. Then I'd say them out loud whilst sitting in my bed, then I'd go back to sleep, thinking them internally. They have been very successful to me, letting me remember ~3 vivid dreams a night and an occasional LD as well as. This was before I took a break from LD, but now I will try PM exercises in addition to these mantra exercises. But I would advise giving mantras in PM form a try!
Yes these are basically mainly PM. When you use a mantra to convey an intention to do something in the future (eg become lucid), it works using PM mainly.Quote:
Originally Posted by HanZartaC
Thanks for the replies everyone. I won't doubt the prospective memory exercises and will include it in my lucid dreaming practices. Some have mentioned that they modified the exercises so that they can be more effective. Is anyone willing to give me any tips or suggestions? Thanks.
^^ My main modification was to choose targets that I was reasonably sure were going to occur during the day. Also, picking targets likely to be spread out over time (soon, later, much later), and to keep a continuous group of 4-5 targets always active (finish one [hit or miss] target, immediately set another target to replace it) so that in a day I was very active, I could go through 10-12 targets (on such days I tended to have LDs at night!) after a while.
Make sure to set targets by doing visualization of encountering the target, like in a dream, of all senses. This really helps to remember them.
I understood everything you said except the parts in quote. Can you please elaborate on this?Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
Also were the results of your prospective memory training quick and long lasting? By "long lasting" I mean can you go very long periods of time without training and still obtain lucidity on a regular basis?
Also, does training your prospective memory help in other areas of waking life outside of lucid dreaming?
I think PM training is just another way to train mindfulness.
Sure, a simple example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsunami1
Say I have 4 current "targets":
+ hear a car horn
+ see a pink piece of clothing
+ eat something
+ see an animal
And then I see a squirrel. I say "Ping! I'm dreaming!" (which I say when I hit a PM target). I mentally cross off "see an animal" from the list and choose a new one: "hear a phone ring"
Now I have 4 targets again:
+ hear a car horn
+ see a pink piece of clothing
+ eat something
+ hear a phone ring
My PM abilities grew fairly quickly once I really worked on them consistently with the large number of daily targets. I sort of gave it up though because I got lazy and it got harder to choose large numbers new and interesting targets that wouldn't just become habitual. As I said, on those days where I did lots of PM targets (10-12) I tended to have LDs. This happened a handful of times. I'd say it helped LD frequency but isn't a magic bullet.
To make it more challenging and the PM situations more dream-like, I tried to choose targets that would occur when I was likely to be occupied or in a hurry, like stepping on a bus on the way to work. I used to miss this one a LOT even in my very active PM practice times. As a result, to this day I *still* RC every time I see a bus, haha :).
I don't think that PM is the same thing as mindfulness (per Memm's comment). There's not really a sense of self-awareness involved in PM targets, at least to me. But active PM targets help (my theory) to keep your subconscious goal center active and if you work in goals to notice the dream state (the point of the PM targets) as in MILD, then that can aid in lucidity.
I see lots of general life benefits to mindfulness, but not a lot to PM, other than not forgetting the milk at the store :).
I prefer to think of prospective memory as remembering to frequently asked yourself if you might be dreaming.
If you do that correctly and with the right intention then you essentially become good at the thing that matters in the end - to ask yourself during a dream if you are dreaming, and then checking that possibility.
I like this example! In a previous post you mentioned once you recognize a target you swap it out to avoid habituation. Question: How long would you wait before reintroducing that specific target back into your daily list? Would it be days or weeks or until you cycle through all your targets? If it's the last, I can see where it would be beneficial to categorize targets by likelihood of encounter. Don't want to end up with 4 targets on your daily list you don't often encounter.Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan