So I've slowly lost interest in lucid dreaming and haven't posted on this forum for a couple years, mostly because of the lack of a guarantee when it comes to having one, have never had a WILD. Anyway I've got a Psvr now so it got me thinking about LDing again and how it makes it harder to be motivated when you can chuck a headset on and guarantee you'll get something without worrying about your dream collapsing. Sorry to be so grim. I'll have to start a dream journal again.
Well, when VR will be able to simulate other senses than vision then yes, we'll talk about the competition with LD (and it probably wouldn't be in favor of LD because as you said, LD are not guarented and need some work to succeed). But today, the possibilites in LD still far exceed those in VR so I don't think VR could replace LDing for now.
Not at all. VR technology is still too much in its baby stages to compete with lucidty. Hell, not even the movies I have seen can compete so far with lucidity.
^^ That.
Rest assured, Dreamo, that VR still has a long way to go to even compete with dreams, much less surpass them.
Why? Because those VR machines can only offer you a representation of reality, and one that you know is just some imagery in a mask. Dreaming, on the other hand, is just as real, perception-wise, as reality itself (even more real, considering that dreams do not depend on the imperfections of sensory organs for their imagery). To date technology -- and human creativity, in my opinion -- has offered nothing that approaches the perceived reality of a dream.
So keep working on those WILD's; you won't be disappointed!
I think the fact that when you got your PSVR and started thinking about lucid dreaming kinda answers your own question in a way.
VR is cool, but it really cant compare to a lucid dream. Putting all of the tactile/olfactory/other sensory information that VR can't give you, just the lack of mobility (literally) and freedom of choice make LD's the more appealing option. For VR you have to hope that a developer has come up with the idea, and that someone has coded and tested it out and ported it to VR, and on your specific VR system as well. In lucid dreaming you can choose to go anywhere, do anything (or anyone :) wink wink nudge nudge), all at your merest of thoughts.
It does take time and skill to master, but once you do it makes the VR system feel like a crude and infantile parlor trick. Which, to be fair, it really is. Its amazing technology, but its just getting started. Keep working on LD's my dude, it only gets better.
And as a side note, for 98% of people your interest in lucid dreaming is going to fluctuate quite a bit, and quite often. In my case I am just getting back into it for the 100th time since 2004 when I first heard about it from a friend. So I wouldn't stress about always doing LD stuff. If its stressing you out, take a break and don't do it! Good luck to you either way.
I'm going with the same opinion that the majority of the answers here have been. I think VR cannot compete with dreams. There are enough answers on this thread to highlight that point.
In all simplicity though, i don't believe that technological imitations of reality will ever truly stand on the same grounds as our own brains' abilities to create a real-like-simulation out of thin air.
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Originally Posted by FluBB
No only all of this, but dreams include direct ideas, emotions, and memories (some real some false, custom tailored to the dream itself). Also, dreams relate specifically to your own life - they're custom made by your subconscious for you, to provide needed help or just fantasy fun. As FluBB suggested, VR and video games etc, are created by a committee and have their own built-in limits. Someone else has created the imagery and the story, you can only experience whatever they have already programmed into it and nothing beyond that. It's sort of a severely limited and very degraded way of experiencing something dreamlike, but designed for a general audience rather than for you alone. Also dreams are far more interactive.
Yes that's a very good point. Dreams aren't a planned and regimented sequence of events using code as a reference. There is obviously a framework based on our subjective experiences with reality, but you know what I mean. You can learn things about yourself in dreams as it changes in front of your eyes. You can see what your subconscious is thinking, which is a truly unique experience for every single conscious person on the planet!Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatters
To me VR is like a different type of gaming or entertainment experience for me and hardly a replacement for lucid dreaming. Especially after my significant other passed away, hanging out with her in lucid dreams is what keeps me somewhat sane and functional in waking life. Besides as others have pointed out VR is far from simulating other senses besides visuals and sound.
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Thanks man, I will certainly get back into it, there is definently a freedom to Lucid dreaming that you don't get, that said I think you guys are selling VR short. I actually tried a vive for the first time in Salt Lake, wow your a lonnng way away haha. I really want to get my WILDS down, but I've always found them almost impossible, might start doing mindfulness meditation hopefully that helps. I'll get practicing.
I've had an Oculus Rift before. As a gamer, I think it was mega fun and awesome, but these guys are definitely not selling VR short.
VR is a long long way away from competing with LDing. We're still comparing video games to lucid dreams. Apples and oranges.
I mean sure, instant gratification with VR. But that doesn't make up for how much it lacks. You can still feel your buttocks against the chair. Your body movements are still heavily constricted. No sensation apart from sound and crappy vision.
LDing is only limited by your imagination and your ability to stabilize the dream.
The day that VR feels like real life, is the day that LDing is being challenged.
And that will ONLY happen through brain-to-computer interfaces.
And to be honest, it will likely use our existing dreaming-engine in our brain to power the graphics. So it will be more like forced lucid dreams (forced shared dreams for multiplayer), where the dream is half-controlled by a computer.
Although it has already been said here, I'd like to contribute my opinion as a gamer.
I would say that, though similar, VR and lucid dreaming are completely different experiences. As of right now VR is rather limited: While a very cool thing, it is still very early on in its lifetime; you won't find many full games in VR, and, if you do, it will probably be disorienting due to your lack of motion. In lucid dreaming, you aren't limited by programming (except that of your brain) or play area. Until VR communicates directly with your mind, it will never be any match for lucid dreaming.
However, even if this were to come to pass, there would only be two arguments for the superiority of VR: First would be ease of access, which is fair enough if you don't want to put in any effort; Second is polish. While a dream is created by your mind, and can be more chaotic compared to other stories and experiences, a game is created by people, and will generally end up being more consistent and polished. However, the chaos of a dream depends on the individual dreaming it-- some people have strikingly consistent and streamlined dreams, after all.
So, in the end, VR would never be a match for lucid dreaming, except if you can't put in the effort. Though, by the time VR games can communicate with the brain directly and accurately, we will probably have also developed devices that can induce lucid dreams in a similar way, so even then VR<Lucid Dreaming. At this point though, they will become pretty similar things-- maybe it could be possible to enhance lucid dreaming with VR tech. But, I digress.
Edit: I feel like I should include examples of ways that btc interfacing could potentially improve LD's.
It could potentially create actual shared dreams that could be proved to have happened;
It could allow us to induce LD's more easily;
It could allow us to revisit other dreams or continue them;
and, it could automatically record our dreams
Good point SG.
By the time VR is at that stage, LD induction will indeed be a mouse-click away.
And you're right they are two totally different experiences. But I think each has its merits.
Super-VR would be like an LD except with the rules of a video game. For a gamer, that is a truly awesome thing.
Insta-LD comes with all the benefits LDing already comes with. Which are countless.
I think you'd be right in saying that still, VR<LDing.
At first glance, it seems unfair to say that one is better than the other, but you cannot argue with the countless benefits of a LD.
Yeah I think maybe a little bit. I think as others have pointed out, its kinda hard to really compare the two because they are so different. VR is awesome for everything that it does in its own realm. LD's are just so much more complete and malleable if mastered. And that is a very difficult, frustrating, and time consuming "if". If there was a device that would guarantee LD's..... I shudder to think about the amount I would pay for that. Probably literally everything I have in my bank account. Either way hopefully you don't feel attacked by all of us yelling at you about VR xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Dreamo28
I would venture to guess we all more or less agree with each other on different levels.
And how the hell did you try Vive in the SL,UT?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamo28
I agree with this, they're two different things, I never meant for this to become a competition as to which is better lol. I wonder how much you guys have actually used VR? It really depends on what game you play but in some the presence is quite startling. Yer I'd pay a ton for a Lucid Dreaming machine too haha ��
We Aussies like travelling a lot. Was in the US for the first time last year, I had a great time there. Tried it at that virtualities place.