Thread: The truth behind Lucid Dreaming - Experienced Lucid dreamers are needed

hmm over the course of my experiences I have formed various theories of my own and have validated some and some are still under evaluation. It will be a bit heavy to get into here. However, I have experienced things differently from the "norm" quite frequently. For example, mirrors don't act as portal to me by default unless I force such an expectation nor do I have frightening experiences during sleep-paralysis like most people do.

I also want to know why you want to Lucid dream, what's the reason that drives you.

Everyone has their own motivations. In some of us it even changes over time. It used to be a means for me to explore the nature of reality itself and I have always been fascinated by dreams, but since my significant other's passing lucid dreaming has become one of the few ways at my disposal to spend time with her.

Let me get this right... You are saying that while we are dreaming there is something, that for some reason shapes the dream in a way that keeps us acting in a way that it likes... Further, lucid dreaming is this things weakness, but even then it has ways of controlling the dream, thereby tricking us into acting the way that it prefers... amirite?

I don't think you explained why you think that though... seems like you should do that next...

If you don't say why you think what you think, then it's hard to come up with anything valuable to say about it...

I like lucid dreaming because it is fun to experience things that are difficult or impossible for me to experience while I'm awake.

My idea of what dreams are- dreams are the perception of the state of our subjective reality, Lucid dreaming is dreaming while perceiving the dream as being a dream, and we are the ones who are doing the perceiving.

Is perceiving the state of our subjective reality a state of control? This sometimes may be the case, as our subjective reality our dreams are based on definitely has the power to influence or direct our behavior. But then again, if we are satisfied with the state of our subjective reality our dreams are based on, we may see no reason to control it.

Is dreaming while perceiving the dream as being a dream a weapon? This may be the case, as this perception can used as means of gaining an advantage or defending ourselves in a conflict or contest with the dream. But then again, there may be no conflict or contest with the dream to begin with.

Are the ones doing the perceiving the bullets? This may be the case if we are using lucid dreaming to use ourselves to manipulate the dream. But then again, the dream is also coming from ourselves, so it would be shooting bullets as well. Bullets firing at bullets! It's a war! In that way, this makes sense if there is a conflict or a contest. However, as always, there may be no conflict or contest to begin with.

Thus, I think your metaphor is valid in some cases, but not all cases. In order for it to be valid in all cases, we would have to always consciously be in conflict with the state of our subjective reality.

First lucidbunnie,
I can't imagine what you're going through. I'm truly sorry for your loss.

LighrkVader
You're right on spot, but you doesn't really believe in you answer. You must know better than anyone, who is the one that controlling your dream, because it is your other part.

Dolphin maybe the metaphor done more damage than good, it seems I am going to need better way to explain myself

I'm not sure if I must continue with this thread, because the information I can provide, can shake your very core of existence and if I choose the wrong words, I can tear your soul apart, of course I can find some fun in this as well. First you all must agree, for me to proceed!

p.s. And last I really love bunnies especially in 'anime style' Now I'm going to dream all night about dreambunnies

I can't imagine what you're going through. I'm truly sorry for your loss.

I'm coping the best I can, but it's hard. One thing I learned is to be considerate of other's feelings. Just because I lost someone dear to me I don't want them to be all gloomy too. I want people around me to be happy, after all life goes on. I'm just grateful I have mastered a skill like lucid dream that lets me create new memories with my SO.

I'm not sure if I must continue with this thread, because the information I can provide, can shake your very core of existence and if I choose the wrong words, I can tear your soul apart, of course I can find some fun in this as well. First you all must agree, for me to proceed!

I'm on the fence about your metaphor, but I can somewhat see it your way too. I'm looking forward for you to elaborate. :D

Dreams are powered by the subconscious, which pulls information from the unconscious and also puts information into the unconscious. Also spits out information into the conscious.
And in a conscious (lucid) dream, your conscious mind makes the commands but it is the subconscious which does the work.

It sounds like you are considering "the Dream" to be separate from "You". Which is definitely not right, both from a scientific viewpoint and a spiritual viewpoint.

So to change about your metaphor:

Non-lucid:
Conscious = Subject
Subconscious = Control
Unconscious = Object

Lucid:
Conscious = Control
Subconscious = Weapon
Unconscious = Bullets

[EDIT: To be honest I'm not 100% happy with that metaphor setup. But I feel it's getting warmer]

In a lucid, what is the conscious mind fighting? It's fighting unconsciousness (not unconscious mind... just, unconsciousness). And unconsciousness indeed fights back.

I could do a much better job of explaining my meaning, but I'm just rolling with the whole metaphorical thing here, cause it's fun to use metaphors.
Thoughts?


Also don't worry about tearing someone's soul up with words. If someone isn't ready to hear something, it usually just goes right over their head (they simply won't understand it).
The only way someone un-ready could be torn apart with words is if they make the decision to dive into it full-throttle. I tore myself apart by making that very mistake. But it was my own choice, every step of the way, and not at all the fault of the person who said the words. Besides, when I de-fragmented myself I learned my lesson.

Although I suppose you could do the decent thing and put a warning before saying anything you think could be potentially harmful.

Slash112 is getting warmer indeed.
But I must warn you all this can change the ideology of entire forum and all of you. And the extra information I received tonight can change the life as we know it! My Soul is evolving as we speak, next time when I have lucid dream it will be totally different.

If i put the word 'unconscious' in my theory, the puzzle is completely arranged. I will try to translate it into the simplest form I can.

unconscious -> automatic system, core of everything! Machine that creates the dream. (It has other purposes as well)
subconscious -> 'the dream' -> separate in two forms
->Yin(Dark) -> Anti-Guides, hostile DCs | They are
->Yang(Light)->Dream Guides, friendly DCs | both manifestation of yin and yang
They both can control/change 'the dream'
conscious -> 'You' - you can change the dream as well

All of this parts make the 'Soul'. Our body is just an extension of our soul.

Yin is always trying to stop you from getting lucid and yang is trying to help you.
Most of the time Yin is in control of your Dream and hate to loss it.

This is everlasting battle, because our soul is imbalanced!

That was the easy part

Nice one, Shifter! I like it

The only thing I see differently is conscious = "your idea of You".
And soul = the actual "You" (like you said, all the parts make up soul. Which is the complete and true You)
[EDIT: Although, "Spirit" would be better than "soul", because soul is most commonly recognized as just a part of you. And, all is spirit, so soul is just a part of spirit.]

But that's just semantics. I feel where you're coming from.



Also I am very interested to hear about your soul evolution and your new informations. I love that stuff.

By anti-guide, you do not mean a being who does not advise or show the way to others? I disagree with this, as being hostile does not seem to be a trait from one who is refraining from advising or showing the way to others.

Alternatively, by anti-quide, do you mean a guide with bad intentions? I disagree with this as well. Our hostility is generally behind the intention of protecting us from harm, which is a good intention.

Good can be considered bad and bad could be considered good. I assume this is why you noted the Light and Dark parts of the dream and both a manifestation of yin and yang. If this is the case, however, how does one truly tell what is Light and what is Dark? After all, if one adds light to dark it more becomes light and if one takes away light from light it becomes more dark. Because of this, I've had a hostile DC turn into a friendly DC and vice versa.

Something balanced is something that is arranged in good proportions. If a balanced soul is balanced between the Light and Dark parts, how does one differentiate between a good or bad proportion between the Light and Dark parts?

I think the subconscious part of the theory is too open to interpretation to be necessarily valid due to the concepts of Light and Dark being too subjective. I agree with the unconscious and conscious parts, though.

Originally Posted by dolphin

By anti-guide, you do not mean a being who does not advise or show the way to others? I disagree with this, as being hostile does not seem to be a trait from one who is refraining from advising or showing the way to others.

Alternatively, by anti-quide, do you mean a guide with bad intentions? I disagree with this as well. Our hostility is generally behind the intention of protecting us from harm, which is a good intention.

Good can be considered bad and bad could be considered good. I assume this is why you noted the Light and Dark parts of the dream and both a manifestation of yin and yang. If this is the case, however, how does one truly tell what is Light and what is Dark? After all, if one adds light to dark it more becomes light and if one takes away light from light it becomes more dark. Because of this, I've had a hostile DC turn into a friendly DC and vice versa.

Something balanced is something that is arranged in good proportions. If a balanced soul is balanced between the Light and Dark parts, how does one differentiate between a good or bad proportion between the Light and Dark parts?

I think the subconscious part of the theory is too open to interpretation to be necessarily valid due to the concepts of Light and Dark being too subjective. I agree with the unconscious and conscious parts, though.

These are mine terms, sorry for the confusion. By anti-Guide I mean the Nemesis of Guide. You might seen him before, without ever knowing/remembering. He is trying to stop you from getting lucid or gain control. He represent yin, but that doesn't mean he is evil. Look at the yin-yang symbol and you will understand. To get perfect lucidity you must balance 'yourself' between yin and yang.

Originally Posted by slash112

Nice one, Shifter! I like it

The only thing I see differently is conscious = "your idea of You".
And soul = the actual "You" (like you said, all the parts make up soul. Which is the complete and true You)
[EDIT: Although, "Spirit" would be better than "soul", because soul is most commonly recognized as just a part of you. And, all is spirit, so soul is just a part of spirit.]

But that's just semantics. I feel where you're coming from.

Also I am very interested to hear about your soul evolution and your new informations. I love that stuff.

conscious = Your current 'You' (maybe is a little too complicated to understand, sorry)
Yeah 'Soul' is the whole 'YOU'!

There is tons of discussion about soul vs spirit over the internet. But I think spirit is bounded by the body, while the soul can get rid of the body when it dies and it can go to another field of existence.


p.s. But that is only just the top of the iceberg.

What is the Nemesis of Guide?

I can understand how the Nemesis of Guide would not want me to become lucid or gain control. However, it seems to me this would be by default because he would not want me to withdraw all my attention away from what he wants. Therefore, if I could gain lucidity and control without withdrawing all my attention on what the Nemesis of Guide wants, he would not care if I became lucid or had control.

How would one theoretically identify and/or correct this balance of yin and yang? What would be considered a balanced ratio of yin to yang?

Interesting. I know this was mentioned before but i agree that as lucid dreamers we can have similarities and differences when it comes to control or experience so saying that mirrors are used as portals and dream text is not stable doesn't apply to all. However, as I read your post I was reminded that as you grow as a lucid dreamer, if you spend little time on forums, you tend to formulate conclusions based on your experience. The problem with this is that sometimes our conclusions are wrong and hence why comparing it to other experiences helps us see if it was truly possible. Not that it's always wrong though.

I also agree that our dreaming mind sets up things in a controlled/random manner but there is no need to fight back with it for control because your dreaming mind isn't out to get you. Even if a dc attacks you. It is there to help you, sometimes to help you notice things of importance so have a peace of mind. If you feel like it is out to get you, it will happen because your mind set or belief can affect what happens in your dream. This was already said as well, just agreeing with it as my thoughts come up about what you wrote shifter.

In the end, you said we could be free from control so you probably already know that.I like to think that our dreaming mind is working to help us than stopping us from being lucid though. Not that we are always on the same page with our dreaming mind.
Hmm...Maybe It depends on your goal whether the dreaming mind is seeming like a "yin" or "yang" for you too. When I use intent to lucid dream I rely on my mind to help me so if my dream characters try to stop me after I become lucid it is ironic in a way. Still thinking about this but my yin is more of my fear in waking life that I carry on to my non lucid or lucid dreams. So like when my own thoughts and not the dream itself is causing an obstacle.

Since you asked, I lucid dream because ever since I was little lucid dreaming has been like a treasured gem. A secret place where I can uncover more truths about the meaning of life. I uncover truths because you can experience things in dreams you wouldn't be able to experience while awake. It also allows you to appreciate sleep more.

Originally Posted by dolphin

What is the Nemesis of Guide?

I can understand how the Nemesis of Guide would not want me to become lucid or gain control. However, it seems to me this would be by default because he would not want me to withdraw all my attention away from what he wants. Therefore, if I could gain lucidity and control without withdrawing all my attention on what the Nemesis of Guide wants, he would not care if I became lucid or had control.

How would one theoretically identify and/or correct this balance of yin and yang? What would be considered a balanced ratio of yin to yang?

Originally Posted by DawnEye11

Interesting. I know this was mentioned before but i agree that as lucid dreamers we can have similarities and differences when it comes to control or experience so saying that mirrors are used as portals and dream text is not stable doesn't apply to all. However, as I read your post I was reminded that as you grow as a lucid dreamer, if you spend little time on forums, you tend to formulate conclusions based on your experience. The problem with this is that sometimes our conclusions are wrong and hence why comparing it to other experiences helps us see if it was truly possible. Not that it's always wrong though.

I also agree that our dreaming mind sets up things in a controlled/random manner but there is no need to fight back with it for control because your dreaming mind isn't out to get you. Even if a dc attacks you. It is there to help you, sometimes to help you notice things of importance so have a peace of mind. If you feel like it is out to get you, it will happen because your mind set or belief can affect what happens in your dream. This was already said as well, just agreeing with it as my thoughts come up about what you wrote shifter.

In the end, you said we could be free from control so you probably already know that.I like to think that our dreaming mind is working to help us than stopping us from being lucid though. Not that we are always on the same page with our dreaming mind.
Hmm...Maybe It depends on your goal whether the dreaming mind is seeming like a "yin" or "yang" for you too. When I use intent to lucid dream I rely on my mind to help me so if my dream characters try to stop me after I become lucid it is ironic in a way. Still thinking about this but my yin is more of my fear in waking life that I carry on to my non lucid or lucid dreams. So like when my own thoughts and not the dream itself is causing an obstacle.

Since you asked, I lucid dream because ever since I was little lucid dreaming has been like a treasured gem. A secret place where I can uncover more truths about the meaning of life. I uncover truths because you can experience things in dreams you wouldn't be able to experience while awake. It also allows you to appreciate sleep more.

dolphin,DawnEye11
I said, I will only give you the truth, I did not say it would be easy. I can only show you the door, you are the these, that must pass through the it.

DawnEye11, you must reread mine posts more deeply, maybe you will understand more of it.

Dolphin, Nemesis is the other side of the coin. When you are not lucid most of the time he(yin) is in control of what is going on, of course yang is also there to help you. In Lucid Dream you are training your mind to gain control and dream Guide is there for you when you are ready, but his Nemesis won't stay still. He will try to regain control, like trying to prevent your lucidity in the ways I described. When you are already lucid, he will try to wake you up or to make you lose your lucidity. He can take on many forms (animals, vicious creature, monster, even natural disaster). I will give you short example of mine:

I become lucid in the dream(DILD) and started to roam freely and doing stuffs that disturb the natural order of the dream, when a police officer appear and said that he will arrest me for being lucid, and I must wake up now, but second man appeared(my guide) and said, that he guarantee for me. Then both man disappeared and I continue with my lucid dream.

I have many other examples, but they are a little too long.

DawnEye11 nobody is the same, that is why we have different experiences. About the mirrors and the text, some of us just have slightly different 'operating system', I am talking here about deep programing. The unconscious is a system, which is running a virtual reality(hrrr it is too complicated to be explain it with simple words) thanks to the 'operating system', that is just one of it's purpose. But these laws can be broken, like in a video game. When you are ready, there will be no need for you to obey the laws.(think about Neo of the Matrix) [that is an important part for my next post]

In the end both part of your subconscious are trying to help, there is not such thing as good and evil. They both are trying to make you better. I am talking here about evolution of the mankind. I think there is some 'forces' that preventing us to move on or maybe we are just not ready yet.

Edit:
Dolphin you are right here:

Therefore, if I could gain lucidity and control without withdrawing all my attention on what the Nemesis of Guide wants, he would not care if I became lucid or had control.

Because you have a simple desire, he will not care too much for you.

I like lucid dreaming because it is fun to experience things that are difficult or impossible for me to experience while I'm awake.

I did read it deeply. Your not making it easy because my dream characters dont react the same as yours and yet when you speak of it, it seems like your saying it happens that way for everyone. Maybe cause you mentioned laws. I think you should be more specific about what these laws actually are. I know your talking about it in a way of how the dreaming mind operates so...

Thinking about the word "force" you mentioned i do agree that there are obstacles that may stop us from evolving in a way. When i think about this time dilation kind of comes to mind. Mainly because your having a dream of a grander time that might be against what is natural. Hence the weird head feeling you might get when you wake up from a long lucid.

Yeah my DCs don't react like that either.

However, when he started talking about Yin and Yang, that's when I understood where he's coming from and was able to apply it in my mind as almost universal.
There is duality in everything, especially in the human mind. Bad vs good. Unconsciousness vs consciousness. Fight vs peace. These dualities exist in our mind so therefore must exist within dreams.
With any duality, in life or dream, some people experience more of the yin, some experience more of the yang, and some people experience a balance of the two.
But it always exists as a duality. (Example, if someone experiences mostly good stuff, they only know it to be good because it can be compared to the bad. Therefore, it is still a duality.)

Although like I said, it's only almost universal. The reason it's not universal is because some people live in non-duality. But that's rare.

Originally Posted by slash112

Yeah my DCs don't react like that either.

However, when he started talking about Yin and Yang, that's when I understood where he's coming from and was able to apply it in my mind as almost universal.
There is duality in everything, especially in the human mind. Bad vs good. Unconsciousness vs consciousness. Fight vs peace. These dualities exist in our mind so therefore must exist within dreams.
With any duality, in life or dream, some people experience more of the yin, some experience more of the yang, and some people experience a balance of the two.
But it always exists as a duality. (Example, if someone experiences mostly good stuff, they only know it to be good because it can be compared to the bad. Therefore, it is still a duality.)

Although like I said, it's only almost universal. The reason it's not universal is because some people live in non-duality. But that's rare.

Oh,so that's what he meant. I dont disagree with that but since we can have different levels of yin/yang, wouldn't our laws be somewhat different too? Also, what exactly did shifter break free from?

Good question, I just looked back to see if I could figure it out.
Funnily enough, it sounds like he's essentially using non-duality to break free from duality. It looks to me like that's the barebones of what he's talking about.

Non-duality brings freedom in waking life, so I suppose it would be the same for dreams.

He gave this example:

when a police officer appear and said that he will arrest me for being lucid, and I must wake up now, but second man appeared(my guide) and said, that he guarantee for me. Then both man disappeared and I continue with my lucid dream.

So, I can see that yin and yang were both there, but he chose to ignore them both.

The thing is, with non-duality, duality still exists, but you are no longer a slave to it. Essentially you rise above duality. But all that means is, things are no longer good or bad, light or dark... they simply are. They become goodbad. Lightdark. That's where yin vs yang becomes yinyang. (Nonduality. "Not-two"/"One") Without the identification of good vs bad, one is free from the pressures of the internal battle that goes along with it.

His example is interesting because it shows that he was neither repelled by darkness, nor drawn to light. He simply existed and did his own thing.

Originally Posted by slash112

Good question, I just looked back to see if I could figure it out.
Funnily enough, it sounds like he's essentially using non-duality to break free from duality. It looks to me like that's the barebones of what he's talking about.

Non-duality brings freedom in waking life, so I suppose it would be the same for dreams.

He gave this example:



So, I can see that yin and yang were both there, but he chose to ignore them both.

The thing is, with non-duality, duality still exists, but you are no longer a slave to it. Essentially you rise above duality. But all that means is, things are no longer good or bad, light or dark... they simply are.

His example is interesting because it shows that he was neither repelled by darkness, nor drawn to light. He simply existed and did his own thing.

You are wrong and right at the same time.

The example was for dolphin for something else he ask. But you are right for the non-duality part.

White and Dark, they both make me who I am

Originally Posted by RealityShifter

You are wrong and right at the same time.

Another duality, yay!

So, the Nemisis or the yin describes the dream when it is being aggressive and the yang describes the dream when it is being unaggressive? I could relate to that! I'll just use the words aggressive and unaggressive to relate to yin and yang.

The dream is aggressive when it has some sort of important matter behind it that requires the dreamers attention. In contrast, when there is no important matter behind the dream, there is no reason for it to be aggressive, so it is unaggressive.

The dream can turn from aggressive to unaggressive if the important matter behind the aggression is resolved. Dreams can also turn from unaggressive to aggressive if an important matter is remembered or otherwise presents itself.

Important matters can be resolved within the dream. Resolving important matters within the dream is certainly worth talking about.

The first step to resolving important matters that cause a dream to be aggressive is identifying what the important matter is. The next step is to resolve the important matter if needed (some seemingly important matters become unimportant upon identifying what they are). It is difficult to describe how to resolve important matters because there are many different possible important matters that probably can't always be resolved in exactly the same way.

The most direct way to identify an important matter within the dream is probably to ask the dream directly what the matter is.

I don't think categorizing as "aggressive" and "unaggressive" (or rather "complaisant") properly defines it. I have had lucids where DCs gently try to get me to loose my lucidity. For example, in one dream I wake in my bedroom and realize it's a dream. My significant other DC tries to get me to go back to sleep. I try to slip away without bringing up lucidity, but she says if I think it's a lucid dream then I must have messed up reality checks and that it's not a dream. Then adds that if I must go then be it and that she was going back to sleep. It was a gentle and comforting way the dream was trying to get me to give up my lucidity. There was no hostility or aggressiveness in it, it was almost passive.

And now the more interesting part, the truth behind lucid dreams. My concern seems to be unfounded, yet I will tell you in slightly filtered way. This may be a bit like a shock for some of you!

My Dream Guide recently gave me information about the essence of lucid dreaming through a test. By including the information from his previous appearances and my personal knowledge, the "truth" is formed.

What is the purpose of lucid dreaming? Lucid dreaming is a "tool" with ancient roots. Of course this tool has numerous uses: (I do not say I know all of them)
1) Personal space - for training
2) Connection between body and spirit - for healing purposes
3) Shared Dreaming - for exchange of experience
4) Earth Global Network - for Global Communication
5) The Humankind biggest library - for storing information (knowledge, memories, history, feelings). All of which is stored in the "stream".

You ask how is this possible? It is simple, every living creature on earth is emitting bio energy, which serves as a wireless connection and turn us in the biggest network. I am talking about Gaia. Have not you wondered why you can feel things in the dream you never felt alive, that's the answer. Your unconscious mind derives information from this network. And from time to time other intra dimensional beings can connect to it, that is why they often talk to us through the dreams.

Think about it, the possibilities are limitless. This technology that exist within us, can change this world forever. She was conceived by "someone" who is on a very high level, long ago. He has planted the seed for our evolution. But it seems that still most of us are not ready for this.

p.s. damn I totally beaten up now

Truth is everything around you.
It is the essence of you and your mind attempting to comprehend the world. So in a sense, lucidity could be a possible way to create a new truth. A new truth in which we are in control of this truth, everything that is told to us is real. Everything we experience in dreams is a truth. It is a way for us to let go of one singular reality, one single truth. Lucidity is a way to bring in new light, and shed new thoughts upon the world, giving us a place to experiment with our lives, or escape the current reality we all so fondly know of.

In regards to the first post, I disagree. None of these laws you gave were actually applicable to me and I know a lot of other people who don't get them applied to themselves either. Hell, I am agressive towards the dream at all times, so the "dream guides" end up becoming hostile towards me too XD

The one post I can agree with the most, would be the last one. Though I stopped my experiments last time at number 4 since I couldn't collect enough data. If you need someone to collect more data, I'll be more than glad.

p.d.: I don't mean in a "higher" realm, but rather in a personal realm