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Has anyone else ever had completely non-lucid dreams about having lucid dreams?
I have had quite a few dreams in which I will do a reality check and/or think to myself that I am in a dream and then proceed to do something with the lucidity. All of this is non-lucid though. Just the other night I dreamt that I woke up and re-entered a dream, seemingly lucid in the non-lucid dream plot.
I've been dream journaling for years now and have never had a lucid dream. Anyone ever experienced this?
I certainly have had dreams about being lucid, many times... and I think such a thing is very common:
I have a feeling that many of the dreams we remember as lucid are actually dreams about lucidity, in which a sense of self-awareness was never present. The trouble is we remember being lucid upon waking, and don't take a moment to really examine what we remember... it's much cooler (and satisfying, given the work so many of us put into this stuff) to quickly conclude that the dream was lucid and ignore the signals that maybe we weren't lucid at all, like that the dream is rapidly fading from memory. The ability to know the difference, which it seems you have, is crucial to successfully developing your actual LD'ing ability -- and ultimately enjoying the benefits of true lucidity.
You might be interested in a thread I started long ago that is essentially about this subject, called a Treatise on Proof.
Interesting thread; thank you Sageous. After reading, I think it may be that I am wanting to have a lucid dream so much that my mind is crafting one for me in the form of a dream. That and actual awareness are two separate things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
I once had a dream where I was at school signing up for a lucid dream class. There was even a sign outside the classroom that said "Lucid Dreaming" on it. Interestingly letters on the sign stayed consistent throughout the dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by rshort1202
Another dream had me googling about lucid dreaming.
When I woke up from those dreams I was so frustrated and annoyed with myself for missing such obvious dream clues.
I really enjoyed the thread "Treatise on Proof" After reading this thread and then the one you posted a link to, I am questioning myself more on whether the last three dreams I have considered lucid were, indeed, lucid. Being new (very new as in less than a month of experience) I could easily make this mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
For my first experience I think of as intentional lucidity, I had a dream where I had a moment of awareness and thought, this is a dream! I felt truly excited. I thought, well, what should I do? I stood from where I was sitting and attempted to yell loudly to get the attention of others around me for the sake of reaction since I felt I knew it was a dream. No one really reacted and this destabalized my dream. I also felt I wasn't able to make much noise with my yell.
Recognizing that visually the dream was fading, I remembered to try the spinning technique from Stephen Laberge's book in an attempt to create a new dream scene. First I spun slowly and thought to myself, this is too slow. I then sped up the spinning. Everything turned black and eventually a light grew until I ended up in a hallway with a door, but upon opening the door I awoke. I think I awoke from excitement. One thing that makes me question my lucidity is how the dream didn't seem incredibly vivid in a sensory way, at least visually and audibly.
I think I know what you mean, rshort1202, because I've had an experience like that too. I've also had a dream recently where I realized it was a dream, lost vision and walked in darkness for 15 seconds or so, and when my dream vision returned I no longer knew it was a dream and my ephemeral lucidity was lost. So I don't suppose I really count that as a lucid dream.
Also, you said you've been journaling for years now but have never experienced a lucid dream. Have you been attempting to have lucid dreams for all the years you've been dream journaling, or is that a more recent endeavor?
Thanks for reading. I hope my reply isn't too long!
Thanks for the reply, Zelcrow. It wasn't too long at all. Your experience is interesting, too; I don't think I've heard of an account quite like that. I've had similar dreams, albeit non-lucid ones, in which I'll be lying down with my eyes closed (attempting to sleep or to re-enter a dream) and experience some sort of sleeping awareness. It seems the difference between these experiences is that yours are lucid while mine are not. It is interesting the variability between individuals. Anyways, through all of my dream journaling years I have had the intention of experiencing lucidity. There are periods where I will practice techniques more ardently and periods where I will sort of put the intent of lucidity aside to see what ensues. I've noticed that during periods of intentionally practicing techniques my dream recall will actually lessen. Just as well, the vividness of my dreams sort of independently comes and goes, leaving me a little stymied on how to go about lucid dreaming.
The "sleeping awareness" is interesting and I'm curious to know a little more. How would you further describe that and would you be able to elaborate?
And I agree about the variability with individuals!
I think that some of the issues you've experienced over time might be over my head now as I am quite new and don't know the best answer. I would like to ask what all induction methods have you tried over time, and have any felt they were working better than others?
What has significantly increased my dream recall is being able to wake up as each dream is ending, write it down, and then go back to sleep. Sometimes I've done that two or three times throughout the night. And, of course, that is anecdotal and is what has worked for me. I'm not sure of what you have incorporated into your dream regimen.
As far as the vividness, have you tried to target that specifically with any daytime practices? I felt my dreams were not vivid enough (still aren't as I'd like them to be), but I've noticed a considerable improvement since I've been attempting to pay closer attention to each of my senses, and even have been taking some set aside moments to focus on each sense for a moment or two at least every other day or so.
I don't know what all you have tried or not, but I thought some of these things were worth mentioning. I'm interested to know more, though.
*edit fixing grammatical mistake*
Last night I had a weird dream that kind of fits into this discussion.
I dreamed I was with a friend at some building. I walked home to get something with the intention of returning.
I got home much faster than I expected and got what I needed.
But then I got upset because I knew it would be hard to find my friend again because
the streets would have totally changed for my walk back because that's what streets do in dreams.
Despite that realization, that was not enough to make me go lucid.
Frustrating.
Zelcrow,
I think what I meant there by 'sleeping awareness', was my dream self experiencing lucidity, be it through out of body experience, WILD, or DILD. So the dream self was experiencing lucidity in a non-lucid dream of mine.
As far as induction methods go, I've tried damn near everything. I think the ones that I have practiced most are WILDs and daily reality checks. DILDs seem far fetched as of now due to the vividness issue and the topic of this thread - failed reality checks (or dreams of lucid dreams). The WILD method seems the most likely to work, though it hasn't panned out just yet.
I can absolutely see that boosting your recall; it has worked for me as well. My recall is pretty solid - it's still just the vividness that is lacking.
I probably used to not spend enough time on each method, moving too quickly into trying another one. For a while, I set aside time to do what you were describing with the mindfulness of senses. During this time, my dream recall significantly lessened. I don't understand how it works well for others, yet has that effect on me.
Also, how did your first lucid dream come about?
Ah, okay. I think I understand more so now. I have had that happen to me a couple of times now. It is a strange happening to have false lucids.
I wonder if the vividness aspect of your dreams would be remedied if you were able to attain lucidity. I have read multiple accounts of vividity increasing astronomically upon becoming lucid and after stabilization. A lot of my non-LDs are not the most vivid either. At peak levels and on average, how would you describe your level of vividness or detail in dreams?
From what I understand, WILDs are more difficult to successfully execute for most than DILDs.
I recently read Stephen Laberge's Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming and Robert Waggoner's Luicd Dreaming, Plain and Simple.
Laberge wrote about using autosuggestion that, "I recalled an average of five lucid dreams per month." Compared to the MILD technique he developed and writes,"I gradually observed a psychological factor that correlated with the occurrence of my lucid dreams: the presleep intention to remember to recognize I was dreaming. Once I knew how I was trying to induce lucid dreams, it became much easier to focus my efforts. This clarification of intention was followed by an immediate increase in the monthly frequency of my lucid dreams. Further practice and refinements led to a method whereby I could reliably induce lucid dreams. With this new method, I had as many as four lucid dreams in one night and as many as twenty-six in one month."
Waggoner writes, "I had been lucid dreaming for more than six years when I first heard of this technique. When I began to use it, my lucid dreams doubled in frequency."
Also, according the the Lucidity Institute, using WBTB with induction methods increases your chances of having a lucid dream by five to ten times.
Of course, different techniques work better or worse for different people, and I know not of your experience with MILD or other techniques and how they mesh with you. I wouldn't want you to miss out on a DILD technique because of the lack of vividness, though, if it could have some success to offer you.
It's possible that you could develop other ways to realize the difference between your waking and dreaming state that does not depend on higher levels of vividness, which I can attempt to elaborate on, but others may be better with that that have more experience.
I have tried a few techniques so far (WILD, MILD, SSILD with WBTB), and MILD has worked the best so far in my experience. I think the key to MILD is working on prospective memory(among other things, of course), which you might already be familiar with. There are ways to work this part of your mind. The intent to remember to recognize or become aware that you are dreaming seems to play a big role in the success with lucidity I've had. I had my fourth LD two nights ago and there was no big apparent dreamsign during the moment I became aware. I think it was due to trying to remember to be aware in my dreams. Falling asleep with that intent to remember and keeping the instructions in mind has really helped me so far.
I've also read in three books now - Dream Yoga: Illuminating Your Life Through Lucid Dreaming and the Tibetan Yogas of Sleep being the third - that it is best to stick with each induction method for at least a month or several weeks to really develop a sense for it.
When you were working on the mindfulness and your dream recall seemed to diminish during that time, is it possible that your lessened dream recall could have been caused by some other factor? Does it seem recurring issue?
My first LD came about one morning when I combined WBTB with MILD. In the dream I was sitting in a church my father had me go to with him as a child. He made a joke, laughed at it, and then rested his head on my shoulder and head. It made me feel uncomfortable and strange and I started to feel hot. I looked down at my body and realized I was shirtless during a church service. That caused me to realize I was dreaming. I felt really excited. I wanted to do something but I didn't know what to do. I stood up and walked into the aisle of the church and yelled to get the attention of the dream characters. This seemed to destabilize the dream. When I noticed it fading, I decided to try the spinning technique to take me somewhere else. I spun around in total darkness for several seconds and then I ended up in a hallway with a door. I opened the door but lost the dream at that point.
Another long reply. I just realized how long I have been typing for. A lot of this or all you may already know, but I hope some of it can be useful; maybe discussion helps in itself somehow. I'm really hoping you can have some lucid dreams, though!
No worries at all about the length of your reply. It seems this is something you're really passionate about, as am I.
I'm also sure that the vividity would increase if I reached lucidity. My dreams just seem more like memories to me. I wake up and am flooded with an account of what had happened, often very detailed. It hardly feels like I was just experiencing the dream. There are exceptions though, where it felt more so like I was experiencing the dream. When this happens, lucidity feels much more achievable. In fact, in one of these more realistic dreams, I was questioning the authenticity of something in the dream... right before I woke up. It seems like these more realistic dreams occurred more frequently in the past, i.e. before school and working full time, etc. It seems like when I had more time to focus on my dreaming and lucidity techniques, the dreams' vividness would increase.
I too understand that DILDs have a higher success rate, though I think that may not end up being the case for me. Come to think of it, there was an instance where I awoke and still felt half asleep. Without moving or opening my eyes, I recalled the dream I was in and attempted to place myself back in it. It started to work, and I think I almost consciously reentered it, before the sensations stopped and I was simply laying in my bed again. This technique felt very promising, though I very rarely awake into that half asleep state. Perhaps I could remind myself to intend for this to happen, as you and LaBerge mention.
As far as the period of working on mindfulness, I cannot think of anything that would've been causing the lessened dream recall, other than possibly me trying too hard, i.e. thinking too much about it, causing an opposite effect. I think the underlying problem may be me not committing to a technique for long enough, combined with the lack of time I have to focus on my dreams as opposed to the past.
After reading your reply and first lucid dream account, I am inspired to start practicing a WBTB with MILD method and really stick with it for a while:lol:
I've definitely been bitten by the bug. It's nice to be among people with similar cares.
I do think I understand when you say a lot of your dreams seem like memories to you. I feel that way about mine fairly frequently. One thing I started thinking recently with doing RCCs and incorporating memory into them is that my waking memories remind me more and more of my dreaming memories insofar as the level of detail I can recall as I mentally run back through my prior actions, especially when it comes to environmental details.
That's certainly a positive sign that the vividness of your dreams increased when you would focus on dreaming and the induction techniques. I don't know the specifics of what your situation schedule-wise, but I hope you're able to fit in some sort of routine. Are you able to sleep enough hours each night usually?
It's interesting that you had that experience where it felt like you were close to having a DEILD. The same thing has happened to me a few times. I have yet to be able to enter a dream that way. I end up just feeling like I'm too awake for it to happen. Even with WBTB I seem to wake back up if my body starts experiencing vibrations or "noise." It seems easier to fall asleep before any of that starts happening, and then I can realize I'm dreaming. I really do hope to be able to execute WILD and DILD at some point.
Best of luck to you with working on WBTB with MILD! I'm hoping to hear some updates as to how things are going at some point.