Better way to set intent (?) | Taking Lucidity For Granted

Couple of disclaimers:

Im fairly certain that this topic hasn’t been thoroughly discussed on dreamviews yet, but correct me if I’m wrong.
I was going to post this in “attaining lucidity” but I didn’t really find a sub forum fit for this post. So it’s being posted here in general lucid discussion.
Keep in mind that this enhancement for intention setting is experimental, and should not be used reliably yet. I have not even begun testing this, refining this, and figuring out how to explain this to the less experienced.
This thread assumes you know about MILD (Mnemonic Induction of Lucid Dreams), as well as intention setting. If you don’t know what those are, please read the links below or you will possibly have no idea what is being talked about in this thread:
MILD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing
INTENTION SETTING: https://docs.google.com/file/d/1FwMZ...iletype=msword


Recently (by that I mean an hour ago at the time of writing this), I posted my first Mnemonic induced lucid dream (I had the lucid dream at age 7). I had induced the lucid dream whilst in an attempt to practice waking up on demand.
(I am not 7 years old right now, this event of which this lucid dream occurred was back in the winter/spring of 2015 and 2016).

The lucid dream proposed an idea — While I was discussing with myself what I should do to wake up on demand, I completely ignored the lucidity aspect. I was focused on a goal from after becoming lucid (which is waking up on demand).
In Hukif’s words:
“That’s because you took lucidity for granted. What you did, was set up intention to do a task after becoming lucid. So your brain was like ‘Yes, I will be lucid 100%, just gotta remember to open eyes.’”

That’s why the thread’s title is “taking lucidity for granted.” This enhancement aims to keep the amount of overthinking & stress of intention setting at a minimum (or even out of the way completely), through the near-complete ignoring of the goal of lucidity, and instead having the main goal in mind be something you want to do in the dream.

To put things more understandable for hands-on learners, I am going to talk more about the dream I had in winter-through-spring of 2015-2016, this time in a first-person perspective.
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I crawled in bed, I was planning out how I wanted to wake up on demand. It went something like this:
“I wanna practice waking up on demand. In order to do that, I have to open my eyes while dreaming. Alright, I’ll go to bed and practice waking up on demand when I’m in a dream.”
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As you can clearly see, this coincidentally goes exactly in-line with intention setting for MILD. Except, one thing is different—I did not have the intention to comprehend the dreamstate, I instead had the intention to do something ONCE I comprehended the dreamstate.

Im gonna begin testing on this enhancement tonight.

It’s a very small difference, but is it powerful?
Let’s all discuss that.

To me it seems impossible to have the intent to achieve a goal after becoming lucid without an intent to become lucid. I know what you're trying to say, but by default the intent to become lucid is already going to be there if you have an intent to achieve goals after becoming lucid. Even if you're main focus is the in dream goals.

But yeah, a lot of people find it easier to achieve lucidity when they have a specific in dream goal they are focused on achieving.

I don't need that so much because I just love the feeling of being in a dream lucid, and the freedom of it, whether I'm doing anything specific or not. But having said that, it doesn't mean I don't have things I want to achieve and work on that are important to me.

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Originally Posted by Caradon

To me it seems impossible to have the intent to achieve a goal after becoming lucid without an intent to become lucid. I know what you're trying to say, but by default the intent to become lucid is already going to be there if you have an intent to achieve goals after becoming lucid. Even if you're main focus is the in dream goals.

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Yes, but as you said, by default the intent to become lucid is gonna be there.
That was kind of the point to this. The main focus is something else, so you take the intent to become lucid a for-granted thing.

Your thread is a nice coincidence after my thread about semi-lucidity. Because one idea I had to overcome my problems was to use MILD to remember to do something just after becoming lucid (basically, to snap me out of semi-lucidity). It makes sense to me.

I also remember a dream I had as a kid. I was wondering (I was 6 or 7) if it is possible to control dreams. I said to myself "next time I am dreaming, I have to try". I wasn't bothered by becoming lucid because I didn't know the difference, in fact, I didn't even know that lucidity is something special. And a couple of days later, I did it, I tried to steer the plot of my dream. Unfortunately, after a couple of more experiments, I made the conclusion that too radical control wakes me up and stayed with little things only.

The problem is, that this could possibly work for natural lucid dreamers only. I don't like the term "natural lucid dreamer" because it means something different for everyone and people often imagine someone almost omnilucid. In this context, I mean someone with higher baseline awareness or natural understanding of the dream state, even if it results in occasional lucid dreams only.
I don't call myself natural but the fact is I still can't relate to most of the other people's stories and experiences. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that different people dream differently.

Another possible problem with your idea could be that it could lead to doing the intended goal non-lucidly. If your goal is about some experience (flying, eating food, going to Mars), it probably doesn't matter that much, lucid or not, you experience what you wanted. But if it is something more complex, it would be a problem.

I think I'll try it because I think it could work for me.
I am not sure it would work universally.

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Originally Posted by IndigoRose

Your thread is a nice coincidence after my thread about semi-lucidity. Because one idea I had to overcome my problems was to use MILD to remember to do something just after becoming lucid (basically, to snap me out of semi-lucidity). It makes sense to me.

I also remember a dream I had as a kid. I was wondering (I was 6 or 7) if it is possible to control dreams. I said to myself "next time I am dreaming, I have to try". I wasn't bothered by becoming lucid because I didn't know the difference, in fact, I didn't even know that lucidity is something special. And a couple of days later, I did it, I tried to steer the plot of my dream. Unfortunately, after a couple of more experiments, I made the conclusion that too radical control wakes me up and stayed with little things only.

The problem is, that this could possibly work for natural lucid dreamers only. I don't like the term "natural lucid dreamer" because it means something different for everyone and people often imagine someone almost omnilucid. In this context, I mean someone with higher baseline awareness or natural understanding of the dream state, even if it results in occasional lucid dreams only.
I don't call myself natural but the fact is I still can't relate to most of the other people's stories and experiences. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that different people dream differently.

Another possible problem with your idea could be that it could lead to doing the intended goal non-lucidly. If your goal is about some experience (flying, eating food, going to Mars), it probably doesn't matter that much, lucid or not, you experience what you wanted. But if it is something more complex, it would be a problem.

I think I'll try it because I think it could work for me.
I am not sure it would work universally.

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Awesome!

I understand the problem with natural lucid dreamers. If you aren’t able to remember to carry out a set of steps just by naming the main goal, then it’s unlikely you’ll be able to do it in a dream. This shouldn’t be a problem for most though. Most people can say “I’m going to use the computer,” then immediately know that they have to press the power button on both the PC and monitor. The main goal isn’t to press the buttons, the main goal is to just use the computer. If you say “I’m going to press the power button on both the monitor and computer, then sit down,” this enhancement proposes that's the equivalent of saying “I will remember to recognize I’m dreaming tonight.”
Of course, this all assumes that your purpose of lucid dreaming is to control the dream, unlike Caradon above who mainly likes lucid dreaming because lucidity feels great to have.

The unintended goal of non-lucidity through this can appear, because you might not have mental associations between your dream control goals and the idea of lucidity. There’s always a chance it can happen. I’m still figuring out how to explain this to the lesser experienced without them getting the wrong idea, aswell as solving all of the problems with this, I’m nowhere near finished, as I explained in the disclaimers. Can’t afford to overestimate the readers ;/

I’m currently testing this out too, and it seems very hopeful.
I’m gonna be posting more about this enhancement soon, probably in a few weeks from now, and I’ll gather what I’ve got.

My intent setting has also become more about the “lucid goal” than lucidity itself these days and it does help I think. That said, I do enjoy casual lucid dreaming with no real goal as Caradon also mentioned. I think either can work as long as the intention is strong enough. When we start out our intention for just getting lucid is very strong and is all that is required to get that first lucid. The enthusiasm for this goal alone does wear off eventually though and that’s why focusing on another goal is then useful. I also find it easier to visualise a more interesting goal (e.g. flying, manifesting) when performing MILD whereas I find trying to visualise “being lucid” or “becoming lucid” a little more vague and therefore difficult to do.

It’s also effective to have a problem to solve or experiment to carry out as well. For example I was struggling with flying so I spent a few minutes trying to figure out a new way of achieving it before bed and came up with an experiment. That same night I became lucid with no real effort and carried out the experiment in the dream. I’ve found this has worked on more than one occasion. Our day to day problems often pop up in our dreams and it’s believed that dreams may function as a problem solving simulator of sorts so it makes sense that focusing on a dream control problem or experiment would bring that subject into the dream.

I would also add that no matter what the goal is I would always make sure you’re first task upon getting lucid is always to interact with your environment and engage your senses to stabilise before attempting the main goal.

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Originally Posted by IndigoRose

Another possible problem with your idea could be that it could lead to doing the intended goal non-lucidly. If your goal is about some experience (flying, eating food, going to Mars), it probably doesn't matter that much, lucid or not, you experience what you wanted. But if it is something more complex, it would be a problem.

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This. Most actions do not require lucidity to perform in a dream. Therefore, if you set the intention to perform a said action, you're more likely to have an induced non-lucid dream.

Waking yourself up is an exception because you wouldn't do that non-lucidly. However, it's also not a very useful one, because most of us want to stay in the dream. I think it would require a lot of creativity to think of other actions that must be done lucidly, without actually setting an intention to become lucid. You might see some success with becoming lucid after doing the intended action, by way of realizing you must be dreaming if you did the action.

I don't think it's a bad practice, I just think it's not likely to pan out the way you want it to most of the time. That, and I'm not sure it is going to be any more effective than just intending to become lucid in the first place. Maybe I'm wrong? I do hope you find success with it. :) Good luck.

I've had a good amount of success in the past inducing lucid dreams by simply reminding myself of my dream goal before going to sleep (a few or more per week on average but not every night)

The technique you propose is closely related to a technique known as autosuggestion because it involves noneffortful suggestion rather than effortful intention. Laberge shares the autosuggestion technique in his book Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming:

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While remaining deeply relaxed [when going to sleep], suggest to yourself that you are going to have a lucid dream, either later the same night or on some other night in the near future. Avoid putting intentional effort into your suggestion. Do not strongly insist with statements like “Tonight I will have a lucid dream!” You might find that if you don’t succeed after a night or two following such misplaced certainty, you will rapidly lose faith in yourself. Instead, attempt to put yourself in the frame of mind of genuinely expecting that you will have a lucid dream tonight or sometime soon. Let yourself think expectantly about the lucid dream you are about to have. Look forward to it, but be willing to let it happen all in good time.

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Laberge shares commentary on autosuggestion:

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The distinction between effortful intention and noneffortful suggestion is interesting and perhaps explains some of my early experiences with trying to induce lucid dreams on demand. The first several times I tried to have lucid dreams in the laboratory, I was using autosuggestion and I found that trying too hard (effortful intention) was counterproductive. This was frustrating for me because I was required to have a lucid dream that very night, while sleeping in the laboratory. It was not enough to have the several lucid dreams a week that autosuggestion produced; I needed to have them on the nights I was in the laboratory. However, after I developed the MILD technique, I found I could try hard and always succeed. This was because MILD involves effortful intention. With autosuggestion I had had a lucid dream on only one out of six nights in the lab; with MILD I had one or more lucid dreams on twenty out of twenty-one nights spent in the sleep laboratory. It should be clear from this that (for me, at least) auto-suggestion is less effective than some other lucid dream induction techniques, such as MILD. However, due to its noneffortful nature, it may offer modest advantages for anyone willing to accept a relatively low yield of lucid dreams in exchange for a relatively undemanding and effortless method.

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Laberge shares what he learned about memory, which lead to his development of MILD. It is useful to know more about memory when trying to improve memory.

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Once I knew that I was trying to remember to do something (that is, become lucid) at a later time (that is, when next I’m dreaming), I was able to devise a technique to help me accomplish that. How can we manage to remember to do something in a dream? Perhaps we should start with a simpler question: How do we remember to do things in ordinary life? In everyday life we remember most things we have to do by using some sort of external mnemonic or memory aid (a grocery list, phone pad, string around the finger, memo by the door, etc. ). But how do we remember future intentions (this is called prospective memory) without relying on external reminders? Motivation plays an important role. You are less likely to forget to do something that you really want to do. When you set yourself the goal to remember to do something, you have made the goal one of your current concerns and thereby have activated a goal-seeking brain system that will stay partially activated until you have achieved it. If the goal is very important to you, the system stays highly activated and you keep checking to see if it’s time to do it, until it is time. It never becomes fully unconscious. But the more typical case is when, for example, you decide to buy some tacks the next time you go to the store. This is hardly important enough to keep on the front page of your mind, so you go to the store and forget about your intention. That is, unless while at the store you just happen to notice a box of tacks, or even a hammer which brings up tacks by association. This reveals the other major factor involved in remembering to do things: association. When facing the challenge of remembering to do something, we can increase the likelihood of success by (1) being strongly motivated to remember and (2) forming mental associations between what we want to remember to do and the future circumstances in which we intend to do it. These associations are greatly strengthened by the mnemonic (memory aid) of visualizing yourself doing what you intend to remember. Thinking of lucid dream induction as a problem of prospective memory, I developed a technique designed to increase my chances of remembering my intention to be lucid: the Mnemonic Induction of Lucid Dreams procedure, (MILD).

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This process of making a memory easier to remember by associating what we want to remember with other things is known as elaborative rehearsal. If the goal is to make a technique as effective as MILD while requiring less effort, then it should have a form of elaborative rehearsal. A constant circumstance in our dreams is our existence. Maybe we could associate our dream goal with our existence somehow as an easier form of elaborative rehearsal. That way, when we notice our existence during our dream it's more likely to remind us of our dream goal. May as well, since remembering our dream goal during our dream wouldn't be as useful if we didn't notice our existence, since this would imply a lack of lucidity.

Thinking about it a little bit more, LaBerge's MILD also takes lucidity for granted, to some extent, or some very low level of lucidity (or to be specific, some level of awareness).
The affirmation/intention is "The next time I am dreaming, I will remember to realize that I am dreaming" (or however it's worded). The trigger is "the next time I am dreaming" which requires at least a hint of awareness (gained from doing a WBTB or daytime practice). Without awareness, MILD leads to non-lucid dreams about lucid dreaming (ask me how I know).

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Originally Posted by dolphin

If the goal is to make a technique as effective as MILD while requiring less effort, then it should have a form of elaborative rehearsal.

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This raises a good point. What's the goal?
To make MILD more effective? LaBerge was able to have a ton of lucid dreams just with MILD.
To troubleshoot/tweak MILD for people who don't get results from it?
To make MILD more effortless?

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Originally Posted by dolphin

This process of making a memory easier to remember by associating what we want to remember with other things is known as elaborative rehearsal. If the goal is to make a technique as effective as MILD while requiring less effort, then it should have a form of elaborative rehearsal. A constant circumstance in our dreams is our existence. Maybe we could associate our dream goal with our existence somehow as an easier form of elaborative rehearsal. That way, when we notice our existence during our dream it's more likely to remind us of our dream goal. May as well, since remembering our dream goal during our dream wouldn't be as useful if we didn't notice our existence, since this would imply a lack of lucidity.

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Very informative. I had read ETWOLD chapter 3, but hadn’t really taken in much from the chapter because of the amount of info being thrown out at me. All I really took in much was MILD.

But elaborative rehearsal seems hopeful to explain this technique.
Rather than having existence remind us of our dream goal though, our dream goal has to remind us of our existence, otherwise that will beat one of the purposes of the technique; Not forgetting something you really want to do. Most people want to get lucid because of the fantasies they get to live out. They want to live those fantasies (far) more than becoming lucid.

Something to note is that many people already mentally associate these things. If you wanted to say, remember to go to a persistent realm, that’s already a lucid dreaming term that will associate lucidity with the goal.
It’s definitely possible to not associate a goal with lucidity. I’m not going to deny this. I’m saying there’s an easy fix.

Some other thing to note is that existence isn’t a universal circumstance in dreams. Several people report not even existing in their dreams, and just a movie playing out completely unrelated. It’d be better (in my opinion) to have the circumstance be chosen by the user of the technique, not the creators.
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The goal of this?
There’s multiple goals.
-To make MILD less effortful while maintaining the same effectiveness (as dolphin said)
-To boost prospective memory through the fact that you are less likely to forget things you really want to do.
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Originally Posted by IndigoRose

Thinking about it a little bit more, LaBerge's MILD also takes lucidity for granted, to some extent, or some very low level of lucidity (or to be specific, some level of awareness).
The affirmation/intention is "The next time I am dreaming, I will remember to realize that I am dreaming" (or however it's worded). The trigger is "the next time I am dreaming" which requires at least a hint of awareness (gained from doing a WBTB or daytime practice). Without awareness, MILD leads to non-lucid dreams about lucid dreaming (ask me how I know).
This raises a good point. What's the goal?
To make MILD more effective? LaBerge was able to have a ton of lucid dreams just with MILD.
To troubleshoot/tweak MILD for people who don't get results from it?
To make MILD more effortless?

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(I said the goals in my post above, to answer one of your questions)
Exactly. The affirmation that LaBerge used in his MILD practice makes you require some daytime awareness. Probably. there’d be some way(s) to fix this? Not that I know of currently, but I’ll figure it out.