A theory about how the brain makes dreamscenes realistic

I had this idea whilst walking in the woods today. I was looking at the leaves on the ground, and wondering how the brain could create such a level of detail in dreams - Such a high level of detail, in fact, that we do not realise we are dreaming.

And then my mind skipped back to a Biology essay that I had once had to write. It was basically about what are known as 'blind spots'. Look at the image below for a demo.

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ult.../BlindSpot.gif

Close your left eye, and with the right eye, look at the square. Now, move your head closer and closer to the monitor. Did you see it? The circle dissapeared! :)

If you didn't see it, try again. I promise you that it does happen. Make sure that you never look at the circle; Always at the square. You'll see the circle out of the corner of your eye.

Now, this is because of the way that the eye is structured. Take a look at the diagram below:

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ult...ages/E/Eye.gif

See where it says 'blind spot' - where the optic nerve enters the eye? At that point, there is not one light-detecting nerve. It cannot see anything.

So, you may think: How come I never notice this? Surely I should just see a large black spot as I walk around?

Aha. Well, no. In fact, the brain is incredibly clever here. What it does, is it 'patches up' the spot. For example, above, the brain recognised that the red circle was surrounded by white. Therefore, it deduced that the area that it couldn't see - the red circle - would also be white. Neat, huh?

But that's not the end. Oh no. :)

Not only can the brain do this with colours; it can do it with patterns, too. If you're clever, you may be able to tell where this is headed. ;)

If there was a grid around the circle, the brain would patch up the invisible area with a grid. If there were pink and blue alternating squares, it would patch it up with pink and blue alternating squares. And if for example, there were leaves surrounding the red circle... it would, of course, patch the area up with more leaves.

So, what I suggest is this: When the brain, in dreams, is creating patterns, it doesn't create every tiny little 'pixel' of light. It just creates what you may call a 'conceptual' pattern; the little 'patch up' section in your brain goes into overdrive. The only place that it doesn't do this is the direction you happen to be looking at, which, I believe, is the effect that everyone seems to describe in dreams: what you are focused on is crystal, but the things in the corner of your eye are blurry. This way, the brain can still create images realistic enough to trick you, but it also doesn't have to use up tonnes of energy in doing so.

What do you think? :)

I almost said "I agree with it" but I don't want to be to quick since I know very little about the subject. I learned about this blind spot in my psychology class only a few weeks ago. I thought it was neat how the brain fills in the blind spot with details from the surounding spots that it can see.

I think that this is a very realistic possibility. It is hard to imagine that the brain could fill in such a large amount of detail in a dream without using some kind of method to create patterns or images from memory in order to create these details. I have another theory that sort of goes along with this. I learned last week in my psychology class that if something remains in short-term memory for longer than 20 seconds it is committed to long-term memory forever and ever and ever and that long term memory can hold what appears to be an unlimited amount of information. The only reason we as humans have so much trouble remembering things like tests for example is because we have trouble being able to recall these memories. Its sorta like how you study for a test but a week later you've forgotten everything you learned. Assuming you did well on the test but you still forgot later on, the memory of the information is still in long-term memory and always will be. The problem lies in being able to recall this information. I believe that the reason the brain is able to fill in scenes with such great details lies both within your theory of "filling in the gaps" using already known information and that of memories that we've previously learned but aren't able to recall when we are conscience.

Hey,

I say it's plausible for the same reason, I don't have a great understanding on how the brain works. I do believe I remember seeing somewhere that the raw footage entering your brain from the eye is surprisingly grainy and low quality, kind of like a home movie. If I remember right your brain actually takes this footage and fills in all the missing information from previous encounters with what ever you are looking at. This gives you a nice clean image. I think it was something like 80% (don't quote me on that) of what you see is actually the stuff your mind added to make sense of the information coming from your eye. If that is the right percentage then I don't see why your mind couldn't use the same method to creat the scenes in your dreams.

Nick

Another interesting thing about our vision that we don't often realize is that only a small area is actually sharp and clear compared to the rest of it. It's something like a 6 degree cone directly over what we're focused on. The reason we don't usually notice this is that we are rarely focused on one spot for long, and we sort of remember whats in the area we're looking at. Try looking at one word in a paragraph of text, and reading the whole thing. It just can't be done, because our sight isn't sharp enough to make out the words outside of the small cone.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if our vision in dreams was quite similar, only filling in the detail on things we're looking at. Just imagine how much more detailed computer game graphics could be if they only had to detail what you were looking right at; processing power could be stretched a lot farther.

I say there is no such thing as seeing. It’s scanning. I don’t see you I scan you.
Yes the brain fills in the so-called blind spot. But it goes one step farther. It is actually filling in the whole thing. What if you were to turn around and see a textured surface that you have never seen before? Would there be a missing spot because your brain has no memory of this textured surface. The brain is very fast and good at building a model of everything you see. We see with our mind not with the eyes. It’s just like sound. If a tree falls on an island and no one is there, will it make a sound? No, it makes a vibration. The brain interprets it as sound. The same with light. Light is actually radiation and a visible range of radiation is called light. In this spectrum of radiation our eyes transmit these frequencies into a model that works both for waking and sleep images. The difference in waking is the image is stable and proved by other senses such as touch.

I can't say I really know anything about what you're talkinga bout :D, but I said plausible because of that incredibly cool blind spot trick ;).

I must say I have to agree since I've read about this subject before and Xei's explanation covers the matter nicely.

Fact is that you can't see everything, and everything you don't see (including the blind spot and things you only partially see) is filled in by your subconscious, which in it's turn uses your long and short term memory to do so.

A rather uncommon scenario, but still a nice example:
You work at a zoo, and you happen to work a lot with white snakes. When at home you rationally know that you don't own a pet snake, but still, the gymsock that your roommate left lying under the couch can give you quite the start when seeing it from the corner of your eyes, or in the dark. Your brain works incredibly fast. Before you even have time to realize there is actually something lying under the couch, your brain fills in the blurry white shape: "SNAKE!!!" ... and there goes the adrenaline.

When dreaming the subconscious part of your mind goes into overdrive, not only filling in the parts you don't see, but also the parts that you do see. Amazing indeed.

Interesting theory. Thanks.

i agree but i would think a lot of the brains imagination powers control what you think you think your seeing like it may not be so tastey without some salt!

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Originally posted by EmmDoubleEw
I can't say I really know anything about what you're talkinga bout :D, but I said plausible because of that incredibly cool blind spot trick ;).

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same! exactly what i did. :D and then i sat there and giggled at it for like 20 minutes. i moved my hand in front of my face and stuff, but it still wasnt there. koolness. 8)

That was neat! I say yes, but not limited to this. Lucid dreams tend to be highly realistic, but details only get better as you focus. Much like real life sight, but that realism isn't strictly tied to this brain function. I'll look into it some more. Thanks!

I disagree, on the grounds that everything we think is real to our brain. You experience seeing an apple and imagining the same apple exactly the same, it is the super concious that decides what is real and what is not. By allowing the Subconcious take over there is no real and not real there is only what there is.

Anything is possible. Good read. :reading:

Hmmm, nice theory. =) What you see is not really what you see but what your brain makes of it. In dreams your brain just makes up vision, maybe on the same way as your theory ^__^

However, on the other hand, your brain couldn't fill any hole becouse it has nothing to fill.. but I would say the progress is about the same, so that it seems correct to you. Like you don't notice the hole in your sight you don't see your dreams are 'fake'.

I think it's possible that you're brain is patching images together from memory to create dreams.
When I attain lucidity,one of my favourite things to do, is to picture a long corridor with lots of doors.Then I quickly go from door to door,to see what's behind them.I can almost feel the machinery in my head trying to keep up.
Another thing I do is tell myself I'm going to see something fantastic,then jump off a ledge or through a window.The things I see are incredible,but they're not what you would see in every day life.
I guess what I'm saying is,when I'm dreaming of something quite familiar,(ie;my bedroom),it's super clear,when unfamiliar territory,not as clear.I would have to agree with this theory.(Of course what the hell do I know?).

Wow! I'd almost forgotten that I'd made this topic, but I was reminded when some people started using the term 'blind spot' in quite a few other places. Thanks for all of the comments! :)

Here's some odds and ends from this topic that I'd like to respond to:

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Another interesting thing about our vision that we don't often realize is that only a small area is actually sharp and clear compared to the rest of it. It's something like a 6 degree cone directly over what we're focused on. The reason we don't usually notice this is that we are rarely focused on one spot for long, and we sort of remember whats in the area we're looking at. Try looking at one word in a paragraph of text, and reading the whole thing. It just can't be done, because our sight isn't sharp enough to make out the words outside of the small cone.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if our vision in dreams was quite similar, only filling in the detail on things we're looking at. Just imagine how much more detailed computer game graphics could be if they only had to detail what you were looking right at; processing power could be stretched a lot farther.[/b]

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Wow... 6 degrees? When I think about it, I suppose you're right. This shows that a large portion of the brain is used in making what we see more believable...

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What if you were to turn around and see a textured surface that you have never seen before? Would there be a missing spot because your brain has no memory of this textured surface.[/b]

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No, I think you misunderstand. The brain doesn't compile a huge bank of textures from memories over the years and then use them to cover up missing visual data; what it can do is recognise gradients, lines, curves, and repetition etc., and then deduce what should go there.

OK... I think that's all I'd like to say for now. Whenever I have a Lucid Dream, I'll put vision research on my list of priorities. I wonder if it's possible (as there is no real visual input, but instead just a sheer and undisrupted concept of a scene in your head) to take in more than just an 6 degree cone..?

Thanks again for your interest, peeps, and please keep posting your little insights! :)

Great topic!

I think that there used to be a king that would use this trick to "behead" the people in his court for his amusement -- he ended up getting beheaded for real :shock: (for a different reason, I'm sure :laughhard:).

There is a good book about all this cognitive stuff called Phantoms in the Brain by VS Ramachandran. It really has a lot of good stuff about consciousness; it kind of got me interested in the brain.

That's very interesting.

I think that when the brain creates the scenes of a dream, it picks some parts of your memory and put them all together. The part of the ambience + the part of the people + the part of the sounds = the dream. If it is a new place, the brain picks a lot of little parts of your memory like only the memory of how grass is or how rock looks like and put them all together to form a environment. Just like the way you can say a forest is a forest, not all forest are exactly the same but you still know when it is a forest.

Cya, great topic! ;)

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Originally posted by EmmDoubleEw
I can't say I really know anything about what you're talkinga bout :D, but I said plausible because of that incredibly cool blind spot trick ;).

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lol sigged

I remember seeing that picture somewhere before of the eye, where did you get it?

You know, it would be interesting to see what would happen if you did that blind spot trick in a lucid dream. I wonder if it would still work...

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Originally posted by Darkhack
I almost said \"I agree with it\" but I don't want to be to quick since I know very little about the subject. I learned about this blind spot in my psychology class only a few weeks ago. I thought it was neat how the brain fills in the blind spot with details from the surounding spots that it can see.

I think that this is a very realistic possibility. It is hard to imagine that the brain could fill in such a large amount of detail in a dream without using some kind of method to create patterns or images from memory in order to create these details. I have another theory that sort of goes along with this. I learned last week in my psychology class that if something remains in short-term memory for longer than 20 seconds it is committed to long-term memory forever and ever and ever and that long term memory can hold what appears to be an unlimited amount of information. The only reason we as humans have so much trouble remembering things like tests for example is because we have trouble being able to recall these memories. Its sorta like how you study for a test but a week later you've forgotten everything you learned. Assuming you did well on the test but you still forgot later on, the memory of the information is still in long-term memory and always will be. The problem lies in being able to recall this information. I believe that the reason the brain is able to fill in scenes with such great details lies both within your theory of \"filling in the gaps\" using already known information and that of memories that we've previously learned but aren't able to recall when we are conscience.

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I have to go with Dark Hack here, although I beleive the pattern thing is very plausible. Too me this memory thing has a big thing to do with it. When I tried to project to my room during on OBE but turns out to just be a lucid and a "not exact copy" of my bedroom. The brain tries to fill in as much details as it remembers about my bedroom. Then there are flaws like my cabinet looks like a completely different cabinet. The rate that the brain would be creating patterns and processing the information would be so incredibly fast, its hard to imagine. But then again so is just regular SIGHT itself!

;)

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Originally Posted by dreamtamer007

stable and proved by other senses such as touch.

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Yes it is stable because it is real, but in dreams dream objects can almost always be touched and they can feel ultra real,
hopefully you've noticed this. Touch lasts longer than vision in dreams, that is how I can survive the void sometimes by
rubbing my hands together until sight returns usually about 45 seconds give or take

Preception is all in the brain
the Japanese have used functionalMRI
to read images from a persons brain,
the image is the same bunch of patterns
in the brain wether from eyes or the
mind.

This reminds me of my favorite stanza
from my epic poem "The not owed to psychology"

What lies be-tween the brain and mind
those pra-ces-ezz yet un-de-vined
will not from con-tem-pla-tion come
but from ex-pair-ments not yet done
...(favorite)
Twist-ed sen-say-tions they pre-ceive
Their own il-lu-sions they be-lieve
..
What lies it tis Psy-chol-o-gy
Tween brain and mind Bi-ol-o-gy

(too bad I have forgotten the rest
of it, but then I never really finished
it)


In Japan they have been able to make
some crappy movies from Functional
MRI of dreams and they can tell you
what your dreamed about like "a tree"
or whatever with 60-70% accuracy


Watch a brain movie at Berkeley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FsH...ature=youtu.be