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most of us know that although REM sleep lasts only about an hour or so, dreams can last much longer than that. and i've heard of techniques where one actually extends their time in a lucid dream. i recall reading about someone who used to spend years in their dreams.
so has anyone done this? is it possible to live years - day in, day out - in your dream? this is something that really intrigues me...when i actually start lucid dreaming, i definetly want to try it.
dreams that take place over a period of years arent uncommon (there's just a bunch of huge gaps), the question is can someone actually experience a year's worth of events in 'dream time'.... i'd be pretty skeptical of someone who says they can
From LaBerge's "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming":
Dreams happen in the form of conceptual thought, thus, I believe it is possible to experience years worth of existence in a dream simply because you wouldn't actually physically experience it, only mentally.Quote:
You may be wondering, then, how you could have a dream that seems to last for years or lifetimes. I believe this
effect is achieved in dreams by the same stage trick that causes the illusion of the passage of time in the movies
or theater. If, on screen, stage, or dream, we see someone turning out the light as the clock strikes midnight,
and
after a few moments of darkness, we see him turning off an alarm as the bright morning sun shines through the
window, we’ll accept (pretend, without being aware that we are pretending) that many hours have Passed even
though we “know” it was only a few seconds.[/b]
yeah, that's what i'm looking for, actually experiencing the year's worth of time. it seems impossible, but what's impossible to a lucid dreamer?
Actually toward the end of the night the entire sleep cycle lasts for less than 45 minutes, and so the REM Period itself is proportionately much more brief. You should plan on having just a few minutes in your Lucid Dream. It would not be the time to begin reading "War and Peace" or "Moby Dick".Quote:
Originally posted by djaio
most of us know that although REM sleep lasts only about an hour or so, dreams can last much longer than that. and i've heard of techniques where one actually extends their time in a lucid dream. i recall reading about someone who used to spend years in their dreams.
so has anyone done this? is it possible to live years - day in, day out - in your dream? this is something that really intrigues me...when i actually start lucid dreaming, i definetly want to try it.
Yes, we often hear of these people who have heard of people who have had huge extended dreams, but typically these are reports about people who have offered up your same kind of conjecture, and the conjecture was interpretted through inattention to be a claim that the feat was actually accomplished. And then we have Glory Hounds who will fabricate such extraordinary claims in order to make something of a name for themselves. Afterall, to be considered the Best Lucid Dreamer on the Page all that is required is that one should be able to make the most and largest Claims. It is just one of those convenient things about Dreaming that nobody can ask for verification. But still, such people tax our credulity when they ask us to suppose that they have dream skills and capabilities so outside the parameters of the ordinary. Ordinary Dreams last only a few minutes.
why in gods name would it be impossible and why the hell would you be skeptical to a person claiming to have spent a year (in their perception of time) in a lucid dream, it seems like something actually relatively easy to do
considering i (in the right state of mind) can ignore time completely and explore it as i feel the need... this being in the real world it seems like it would be incredibly easy to make time irrelevent in a dream, considering i can do it in the physical world
closed minded people.... tsk.tsk.
It seems to me that the only reason that in most cases people don't use lucid dreams to live through years worth of events (where as it is actually rather common during non lucid dreams) is because upon attaining lucidity one comes to the "usual" state of mind, not used to using conceptual thought.
In fact, I think lucid dreams are a valuable tool for training conceptual thought by will instead of the oh-so-inefficient verbal and image-based thoughts most are used to.
I wouldn't have thought it impossible to seemingly live a week or year or a life-time in a lucid dream. But to me the big brake on such a thing occuring is that evolutionary we are not designed to see the broad sweep of years or lifetimes ie we are designed to pretty much be in the here and now to hunt our food, avoid predators etc.
Sure we can conceive of the years passing but it still catches us off guard when we think "boy that year went quick" or "Shit, am I really turning 30!". We don't really see the year passing in front of us in the same way we don't see the grass growing. So I imagine it would be hard to drag such a conception into a dream. But maybe if you worked on it by writing out your life (real or imaginery) on paper so you can see the years flowing by like in a movie, and committ it to memory, it might help you take that into a lucid dream.
no. i read posts made by someone who reguarly does this.Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont
Yes, we often hear of these people who have heard of people who have had huge extended dreams
what are you talking about? no one gives a shit about being 'the Best Lucid Dreamer on the Page.' this isn't some great medieval hall where the knight who boasts the finest swordsmanship wins the fair lady's heart.Quote:
And then we have Glory Hounds who will fabricate such extraordinary claims in order to make something of a name for themselves. Afterall, to be considered the Best Lucid Dreamer on the Page all that is required is that one should be able to make the most and largest Claims. It is just one of those convenient things about Dreaming that nobody can ask for verification. But still, such people tax our credulity when they ask us to suppose that they have dream skills and capabilities so outside the parameters of the ordinary. Ordinary Dreams last only a few minutes.[/b]
i thought it was common knowledge that dreams can last much longer than the physical REM period. you're the only person i've seen who's said otherwise.
To me, it seems like the person having an extended lucid dream would have to be thinking at an extremely fast rate and also be able to reason and deal with those oncoming thoughts just as fast. thats really the only way I could see it working.
Leberge only talks about extended "dreams", not Lucid dreams. Its a whole different story when the CONSCIOUS mind comes into play.
That's exactly the point. Lucid dreams are on a line between full consciousness and the dream state, allowing one to make actions that would normally only be accessible in dreams but by one's own will.Quote:
Originally posted by StickFigure
Leberge only talks about extended \"dreams\", not Lucid dreams. Its a whole different story when the CONSCIOUS mind comes into play.
We don't literally live through the years or life-times in dreams, we merely construct conceptual thought in large amounts and unlike actual events in real time, such construction takes a short amount of time. Thus, one both feels that he/she has experienced all the events throughout that time and remembers them as well.
That is my view of it from my own experience and analysis.
I don't know about that, but I know that you can have dreams at other points in your sleep and have them sort of meld together as one long memory when you wake up.Quote:
Originally posted by djaio
i thought it was common knowledge that dreams can last much longer than the physical REM period..
I only remember having one dream that seemed to last for a couple of hours, and that happened over two cycles.. I know this because I woke up breifly (literally a couple of seconds) half way through and went back to the same dream.
However, in my experience, dreams always seem to last longer than they physically do.
Once I passed out and dreamed I was eating a picnic on the floor of a supermarket which was carpeted with astroturf and complaining about my ex boyfreind. When I came to I thought I had been passed out for a few minutes, but the dream had happened in the time it took me to hit the floor.
So.. hours, yes. but years seems a bit far fetched.
Well, I do this
Never close my eyes longer then 4 seconds or else i wake up
I constantly yell that im dreaming
I spin every minute or so
perform a RC every minute
Summon a time clock
HAhaha!!! I got it now. thats the shit. Im surprised I didnt think of that myself.Quote:
Originally posted by Merlock
We don't literally live through the years or life-times in dreams, we merely construct conceptual thought in large amounts and unlike actual events in real time, such construction takes a short amount of time. Thus, one both feels that he/she has experienced all the events throughout that time and remembers them as well.
I was waiting for someone to say something like that before I intervened on this interesting topic. Thank you.Quote:
Originally posted by Merlock
We don't literally live through the years or life-times in dreams, we merely construct conceptual thought in large amounts and unlike actual events in real time, such construction takes a short amount of time. Thus, one both feels that he/she has experienced all the events throughout that time and remembers them as well.
We all know our brain is a super-processor, capable of performing several tasks simultaneously in very short periods of time. This is no exception in dream thought, when perception and emotion is fuelled by imagination. The brain is capable of having you perceive and feel legions of conceptual thoughts in minimal time, which would make it quite easy to experience, for example, a year of activity judged by your dream's perception of real-time (or "dream time"), when in true real-time it may have taken place in only 10 minutes.
D
This is a subject that really intrests me, becouse if you could spend years in your dream world while it's actually a few minutes, then the effects on your waking life could be huge (for example, you could learn to juggle, or at least learn to do maths in your head way quicker.)
But there are 2 sides:
-Maybe it is possible, becouse some people have experienced/said to have had such long dreams, and dreams more often look longer then the REM period lasts.
Allso, time is relative, and if you are no longer tied to certain rules of your body and mind, you might alter how you experience time in your dreams.
-On the other hand, your nerve cells just can't work faster. If you would have to do 100 years of thinking in 1 minute. Your brain wouldn't be able to do so.
But slowing down time seems possible. However FEELING like you dream for days is something else, indeed like in movies and such.
Nerve cells don't need to work faster. Constructing conceptual thought in dreams is like building memories, or close; meaning that no actual actions happen; and considering that conceptual thought takes far less time for far more thought than regular thought, well, it really doesn't apply to the nervous system as such. Who knows...if I cared to make guesses I may even have theorized that conceptual thought is only part of one's "mind", and not one's "brain" (considering that I'm sure that the physical body and conscioness are different aspects of one being).
Some make it a point to train conceptual thought in their waking state and such a skill is surely benificial but far from simple. It seems to me that in dreams however, the ability for conceptual thought may be more...free, allowing its use in an easier way than during the waking state. Yet another chance for a simple experiment in a lucid dream (like testing to see if one has both waking and dreaming memory banks) - testing the use of conceptual thought and its ease during a lucid dream.
And the idea of why such long dreams don't have an enormous effect on one's mind/ego is also worth some studying I would suppose...
You can't learn to juggle in a dream. That involves the nervous system which is muted while dreaming, whether you are lucid or not. Maths? Well thats an interesting one, I do question just how conscious we are in lucid dreams and if it is possible to train our intellect as such while lucidly dreaming. Anyway how do we 'learn' maths in a lucid deam. We can't take a book in with us.Quote:
Originally posted by Neruo
This is a subject that really intrests me, becouse if you could spend years in your dream world while it's actually a few minutes, then the effects on your waking life could be huge (for example, you could learn to juggle, or at least learn to do maths in your head way quicker.)
Er...easy, Dearly? In real life we are evolutionary designed to regulate time via physical factors in our world like metabolism, sunrise/sunset etc. To me this is a big restraining factor on how easy it would be to concieve of years or a lifetime passing by you in a single lucid dream. It would be cool though to have a lucid dream where you see your life unfold:Quote:
The brain is capable of having you perceive and feel legions of conceptual thoughts in minimal time, which would make it quite easy to experience, for example, a year of activity judged by your dream's perception of real-time (or \"dream time\"), when in true real-time it may have taken place in only 10 minutes.
[/b]
born into the world screaming, battle acne as a teenager, first sex kicks, marriage, have kiddies, give away yr daughter in marriage, mid-life crisis, divorce, get young sexy blond girlfriend, have first heart-attack, get dumped by young sexy blond girlfriend, move into old-age home, lay on death bed, wonder aobut meaning of life etc
That would be kind of cool to see it all rage in front of you life a river.
If you Could experience years and years in dreams, and have years and years of toughts, you could allso solve 30299^2 by head in 0.0001 second.
Hmmm? In some point in human history some person that had a weird dna-matuation would have had the ability in waking life.
so I don't think it can, maybe just extended, or made to feel like longer.
That's preposterous. Conceptual thought isn't a physical ability. It's logical, thus, I can say with a great degree of certainty that creating long experiences over a short amount of time by such means is possible.Quote:
Originally posted by Neruo
In some point in human history some person that had a weird dna-matuation would have had the ability in waking life.
so I don't think it can, maybe just extended, or made to feel like longer.
On the topic of the effect of dreams upon one's ego: it seems to me that dreams can have emotional effects but not so much effects of learning or critical changing of one's inner self. However, I don't like underestimating emotions for I value them far more than logical thought as the most important part of my ego.
Tought is a physical ability. One what we do not understand fully, yes. Learing Certainly is a physcical ability becouse learning certain things makes the used nerves (lets say juggeling-nerves) thicker.Quote:
Originally posted by Merlock
That's preposterous. Conceptual thought isn't a physical ability. It's logical, thus, I can say with a great degree of certainty that creating long experiences over a short amount of time by such means is possible.
On the topic of the effect of dreams upon one's ego: it seems to me that dreams can have emotional effects but not so much effects of learning or critical changing of one's inner self. However, I don't like underestimating emotions for I value them far more than logical thought as the most important part of my ego.
Infinity in dreams is not possible becouse the brain used electric pulses and transmerence of Ions to work, and they do go fast but not infinitly fast.
Don't be so one-sided. Even taking thought from the aspect of a physical ability, conceptual thought and the usual type of thought most utilize (speech and imagery) are very different. The first much more optimal than the latter in many ways. Analyse the way you yourself think in a serious situation when you don't utilize words and imagery as an imaginary polygon for thought.Quote:
Originally posted by Neruo
Tought is a physical ability. One what we do not understand fully, yes. Learing Certainly is a physcical ability becouse learning certain things makes the used nerves (lets say juggeling-nerves) thicker.
Tought could be explained scienentifically, just not by us. If we were smart enough to understand our brains they would be so simple we couldn't understand anyhing.Quote:
Originally posted by Merlock
Don't be so one-sided. Even taking thought from the aspect of a physical ability, conceptual thought and the usual type of thought most utilize (speech and imagery) are very different. The first much more optimal than the latter in many ways. Analyse the way you yourself think in a serious situation when you don't utilize words and imagery as an imaginary polygon for thought.
However maybe things can feel like infinity as there are about as much ways electric current can take in your brain then there are atoms in the world.
And maybe I am being one sided, but you can't ignore science just becouse we hardly understand it at all.
I apologize. I meant easy for the brain. I wish I could tell you how difficult it would be to get ones brain in that mindset and to "let go" of learned restraints, but unfortunately we have not done much research on this. I am mainly theorizing at the moment with some related evidence. Regardless, once it is achieved, it is "easy" for your brain to do this amount of computing at such level capacity--it is doing it every day without you noticing.Quote:
Originally posted by fluid phil
Er...easy, Dearly? In real life we are evolutionary designed to regulate time via physical factors in our world like metabolism, sunrise/sunset etc. To me this is a big restraining factor on how easy it would be to concieve of years or a lifetime passing by you in a single lucid dream.
D
My point exactly.Quote:
Originally posted by dearly
it is doing it every day without you noticing.
Neruo, you're still not seeing the point it seems. If you yourself say that you don't understand the brain completely then just take some time to realize what conceptual thought is. Analysis of one's own experience is much more effective than any explanation since, as ironic as it is, we communicate through speech, which, compared to conceptual though, is extremely awkward and inefficient, heh.
So you DO understand the brain completely? =) No one does.Quote:
Originally posted by Merlock
My point exactly.
Neruo, you're still not seeing the point it seems. If you yourself say that you don't understand the brain completely then just take some time to realize what conceptual thought is. Analysis of one's own experience is much more effective than any explanation since, as ironic as it is, we communicate through speech, which, compared to conceptual though, is extremely awkward and inefficient, heh.
And I am not talking about speech at all, where did you get that idea?
There is a limit to the amount of thoughts a person can have in 1 second. Maybe it is so big it will never be an obstacle, but one brain couldn't hold all the tought of every person on earth.
So the affect of these dreams on ones ego?
You wake up, you dont know who you are, you dont know where you are, your room is unfamiliar and your scared because everything you know as just been flipped upside down and pulled inside out. You feel the emotions of loved ones lost and family and friends the most.
Everything starts to come into focus and you realise it was a dream and you are then confronted with another set of emotions regarding what is real and what was the point.
The feelings start to fade over time but you dont forget.
You remember some things even with the pasing of time, usualy whatever your life was focused around.
So you have some wonderful memories and experiences but ont he flip side it messes with your head and your heart.
My stance on dreaming because of this is that I consider the experiences I have within the dreaming are real. Just as real as this place.
A memory is a memory and if you look to your own past you will find that there are large gaps you dont remember but obviously time has passed right? So how is it any different from these dream experiences? The things that affect you, you remember, the trivial stuff goes *fwip*
The argument that those dream experiences arent real because they cannot be proven by anyone else other than yourself dosent work for me either.
Prove to me that "you" exist ;) and I dont mean you physically. I mean the narrative voice in your head that is speaking these words, you have to hear that voice to understand this all, but you cannot prove its there.
The dreams are not lucid, as was said its a very fine line. You exist and you react and you live but you dont realise its a dream.
hummm STUFF I duno Im feelin funky too much traveling today Though it is alot nicer here in California, none of that white crap on the ground.