Lucid Dreaming and Sleepwalking

Here's another anomaly which has made me wonder about the level of lucidity people have in dreams.
When we're sleeping, our brains release neurochemicals which paralyse our bodies. This stops us from acting out our dreams and prevents us from damaging ourselves and others. If people were truly in a wakeful state while dreaming, shouldn't their brain then stop releasing the chemical responsible for paralysis, such that lucid dreamers should also be sleepwalkers?
I'm no neurologist so I don't know the science behind it, but it was just something that crossed my mind. I really want to believe that one can attain a true state of wakefulness while dreaming, but there's this small part of me that wonders if what everyone thinks are lucid dreams are in fact, just extremely vivid dreams.
From what I've seen on this and many other forums, there are plenty of posts about intense and vivid dream experiences, even those where people have control, but I think that a person used to being in control during wakefulness could have control in their dreams without being conscious. Purely out of habit the subconscious mind has control because the person has good self-control when they're awake. Or if they're telling themselves they're going to be able to control their dreams as a means of lucid dream induction, their subconscious may well be able to exert some control in dreams, but that still doesn't mean it's on a conscious level.
No matter how vivid and real a dream may seem, there is still a massive gap between "vivid" and "lucid", no matter how vivid it is. I'm not sure many people are recognising that. We all want to believe we're lucid dreaming, but I'm seeing more evidence of vividness than I am of true lucidity.
Maybe I'm over-rationalising it all. Perhaps true wakefulness in dreams is possible. I really want it to believe it's true, so please try and understand that I'm not here to pay out on lucid dreaming. I just feel that there's a lot of optimism, which is a great thing, but it can cloud peoples' judgement on whether not they truly are lucid dreaming. I'm just trying to determine whether or not I'm wasting my time trying to get "lucid" if all I'm going to get is "extremely vivid". I already have vivid, which is really great, but it's not the same as being awake while dreaming.
Again, any comments are welcome. If you think I'm completely wrong, please tell me. I'm not trying to discredit lucid dreaming, and as I said - I'm continuing with the techniques myself, but I'm just trying to be very realistic about it all. There seem to be fundamental flaws in the whole concept that I just can't find anwsers for.
If I do manage to get truly lucid though, I'll be the first to tell me to shut up!
Cheers.

Ok, I think you're wrong :wink: And welcome to DV, btw.

As one who has done all three of the things you mentioned - sleepwalked, experienced vivid dreams, and experienced lucid dreams – I can tell you emphatically that there is a difference.

Until I was about 12 years old, I would sleepwalk several times per week (going so far as to act out my dreams in some cases), and like you, my dreams have always been incredibly vivid. Some of my first memories of my life are memories of dreams. They've always been in full color, always with surround-sound and solid tactile sensations, etc. But they’re not the same as lucid dreams. Lucidity is the awareness of the dream-state while experiencing it. Even in my most vivid dreams, I accept the world as it seems, reacting to DC’s and situations according to that blind dream logic, not aware that it’s all just a mental illusion. I'm really not very good at WILD or LD induction techniques in general, to be honest, because since spontaneously starting to LD as a teenager (a few years after I stopped sleepwalking), the vast majority of my LD’s have been dream-initiated. There is a very real, often tactile, transition between a vivid dream and a lucid dream.

I'll be dreaming and then suddenly will be hit by a realization like an epiphany that everything I'm seeing, hearing, and feeling is just a dream - an illusion played out in my head. It is, for me, a spontaneous knowing, sometimes initiated by some irrational occurrence in the dream, but not necessarily. Usually, but not always, this realization is accompanied by some sort of electric tingle all down my (dream) body - excitement, probably - but I don't know whether anyone else gets this or not. The dream before the realization is vivid, but after the realization it is lucid. It no longer feels like a dream – the world around you is as solid and detailed as in waking life, yet you know that it is illusion and you have absolute freedom to do whatever you wish. Instead of simply reacting as if everything were real and as it seems as you do in a non-lucid dream (no matter how vivid), you act in LD’s, making conscious decisions while aware that you are dreaming.

I don’t think that any amount of anecdotal evidence will convince someone who hasn’t experienced it, but research has been done on lucid dreaming, most notably by Dr. Stephen LaBerge. Here’s a research summary with a bibliography of some of LaBerge’s peer-reviewed publications at the end: LaBerge LD Research Summary. Google for more info, if you're interested.

Anyway, you should keep trying. It is absolutely worth it.

I think the problem might be that you see lucid dreams as complete wakefulness in your dreams. Even though this is what it feels like, it's only partially true. When you're dreaming, your mind is partially concious. It doesn't get any sensory input like sight, smell or hearing, but it's still perceiving the environment. Seeing as it doesn't receive sensory input though, it will have to rely on other factors like expectation. That's to say, not all of your brain in functioning properly during dreams (this is also the reason reading is often difficult of impossible in lucid dreams), and therefore you're not completely awake. Lucid dreaming is simply realizing that you're dreaming, which can make you feel as concious as in the real world and as such, (usually) gives you control over the dream.

The moral of the story? You're not wasting your time, be patient and keep trying. :D

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Originally posted by dark side of the sun


.... If people were truly in a wakeful state while dreaming, shouldn't their brain then stop releasing the chemical responsible for paralysis, such that lucid dreamers should also be sleepwalkers?....

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No! People are not in a 'wakeful state' when they are Lucid Dreaming. They are 'dreaming'.

People who are sleep walking, or in drunken blackouts, which are the same thing, are not 'dreaming'. They are not 'asleep', not technically. They are conscious and awake except that they will not remember what they are doing -- sleep walkers and drunken blackouts NEVER remember what they were doing -- and apparently whatever part of their brain is active, guiding behavior, is not entirely operating at the same level of ordinary judgement. Sleep Walkers behavior is often bizaar or unusual, so that loved ones can typically know when the subject is 'sleep walking' or 'blacked out'.

But a Lucid Dreamer is not awake. Indeed, Lucid Dreamers who purposefully wake themselves up, to escape nightmares will often come up through that very sleep paralysis which would prevent sleep walking.

As far as I've read from research done on the topic, sleepwalking occurs during quiet sleep rather than during REM sleep. Thus, lucid dreamers shouldn't really be sleep walkers, and that's besides what Leo noted.

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Originally posted by Merlock
As far as I've read from research done on the topic, sleepwalking occurs during quiet sleep rather than during REM sleep. Thus, lucid dreamers shouldn't really be sleep walkers, and that's besides what Leo noted.

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Yes, this is true. Often Sleep Walking occurs with people who have been aroused from short naps. My brother would sometimes take a short nap after school and when we would wake him for dinner, he would get up and scream his lungs out for us all to shut up and quit bothering him. Finally, when he would truly awake, he would not remember having shouted us all down.

Also, there was a time when I had taken a short nap, and my mother afterward asked to whom I spoke with my phone call. What phonecall? Apparently I had fielded a phone call during an instance of sleep walking. The next day I learned that Donna Richardson had calle and asked me about a homework assignment. Thank God I responded appropriately.

Anyway, now that I think about it... perhaps it is wise, when one is very fatigued, or drunk, to assure that one will not be disturbed when finally one begins to take one's rest. Particularly, if you have been drinking, and still have any presence of mind left, do not fold your arms and rest your head for a moment. Once one surrenders Waking Consciousness, one may be inviting that Sleep Walking Black Out state.

Some sleepwalking does occur during REM. The majority of my sleep-walks were completely unremembered (and most likely did not occur during REM), but in several notable cases, I acted out the dreams I was experiencing at the time. I was (obviously) living at home at the time, and was usually awakened by my parents who confirmed my actions. Of course, the time I awakened from a dream of taking a shower to find myself soaking wet, standing fully clothed in my PJs in the bathroom with my parents pounding on the locked door, I didn't need much confirmation of what had happened.

^^^ well, that is certainly reason to believe that some sleepwalking does occur while dreaming. however, it seems impossible to tell whether it was specifically REM sleep that was occuring while the shower incident occured (which is pretty funny by the way).

there seems to be a case for some dreaming occuring within non-REM stages of sleep (though quite rare).

it is obviously just a guess, but i would suspect that it was not REM sleep in which you sleepwalked, as normally your body should be paralyzed during this phase of sleep, should it not?

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Originally posted by Peregrinus
Some sleepwalking does occur during REM. The majority of my sleep-walks were completely unremembered (and most likely did not occur during REM), but in several notable cases, I acted out the dreams I was experiencing at the time. I was (obviously) living at home at the time, and was usually awakened by my parents who confirmed my actions. Of course, the time I awakened from a dream of taking a shower to find myself soaking wet, standing fully clothed in my PJs in the bathroom with my parents pounding on the locked door, I didn't need much confirmation of what had happened.

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Oh... Okay. We must take this into consideration. If you had indeed dreamt of taking a shower and then were awoken in the bathroom, in jets of hot water... then I must retract my earlier hypothesis... that there must exist the aborrant condition of being able to Dream without the benefit of Sleep Paralysis.... a dangerous condition.

Perhaps it happens more with young people then old, but perhaps it is only easier for young people to be caught at it... by parents, siblings and such. When one lives alone one can only guess how much activity occurs unconsciously in ambulatory Dreams.

I recently saw on the News that they are having some problems with some of the newest pharmaceuticals regarding Sleep Walking -- ingesting even the slightest bit of alcohol along with them leaves one extremely prone to sleep walking, even sleep 'driving', which people are not apparently very good at... people have been having multiple accidents, and then when approached by the police, they 'run for it' until they have managed to entirely incapacitate their autos. they wake up wondering where they are, why their car is wrecked, and why they are hurt and bleeding... and why the police have no sense of humor about it all.

But, still, yes, in most cases people remark that they can remember nothing, no, not even a dream. But with these recent Posts, we now must concede that it can and does sometimes occur... it is no longer to be considered impossible.

is the author of this topic trying to prove Lucid Dreaming wrong? or what is he actually getting at? Lucid Dreaming is possible, its a proven fact..if you want to get alot of information about it, pick up Stephen Laberge's EWOLD--Exploring the World Of Lucid Dreaming--it will pretty much tell yah to "shut up" lol :)


no offence, but maybe the way you are thinking about all this, is making you not have Lucid Dreams.........just a thought


thanks

dj jones

if i didn't already know lucid dreaming was possible, i'd be pretty skeptical too--even with all of the anecdotal evidence

That's a good point - thanks for your reply.
I also wondered if over-analysing lucid dreaming might affect whether or not I'm able to have lucid dreams, but I don't think so. Anything legitimate should be able to hold up to scrutiny and discussion. I'm not so much skeptical as I am realistic. I've read heaps of books on the subject and while many of the authors claim to be doctors, very very few of the experiments have been completely unbiased. They've been made by "enthusiasts" who are trying to prove the existence of lucid dreaming, as opposed to true scientists who
will, in most cases at least, try to disprove a theory until results show otherwise. Otherwise results are very often biased toward positive results. I'm not saying all authors of lucid dreaming do this, but some of them quite obviously do. Lucid dreaming is still, for the most part a "fringe phenomenon" and while this no way determines whether or not it's legitimate, it has an aura to it which attracts people who are less than impartial when it comes to analysis.
I'm just putting these posts up to try and hear from people first hand, so I might get a better idea of what I might be able to expect, and whether it's worth my trying to induce lucid dreaming if I've already gone as close toward lucidity as is possible.
Raising questions doesn't necessarily mean being negative - it's more about trying to get the opinions of non-biased people, which can be difficult when everyone wants to believe they're a lucid dreamer. Like I said - optimism and self-belief are great, but if you want a valid discussion we need to be impartial and subjective. It's a great thing to be able to believe, but if you believe something simply because others say you should and you'll give it a go because you're optimistic, without impartial evidence, you really don't know what you might be up for.
But I do appeciate your comment - it's a good point.

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Originally posted by dark side of the sun
That's a good point - thanks for your reply.
I also wondered if over-analysing lucid dreaming might affect whether or not I'm able to have lucid dreams, but I don't think so. Anything legitimate should be able to hold up to scrutiny and discussion. I'm not so much skeptical as I am realistic. I've read heaps of books on the subject and while many of the authors claim to be doctors, very very few of the experiments have been completely unbiased. They've been made by "enthusiasts" who are trying to prove the existence of lucid dreaming, as opposed to true scientists who
will, in most cases at least, try to disprove a theory until results show otherwise. Otherwise results are very often biased toward positive results. I'm not saying all authors of lucid dreaming do this, but some of them quite obviously do. Lucid dreaming is still, for the most part a "fringe phenomenon" and while this no way determines whether or not it's legitimate, it has an aura to it which attracts people who are less than impartial when it comes to analysis.
I'm just putting these posts up to try and hear from people first hand, so I might get a better idea of what I might be able to expect, and whether it's worth my trying to induce lucid dreaming if I've already gone as close toward lucidity as is possible.
Raising questions doesn't necessarily mean being negative - it's more about trying to get the opinions of non-biased people, which can be difficult when everyone wants to believe they're a lucid dreamer. Like I said - optimism and self-belief are great, but if you want a valid discussion we need to be impartial and subjective. It's a great thing to be able to believe, but if you believe something simply because others say you should and you'll give it a go because you're optimistic, without impartial evidence, you really don't know what you might be up for.
But I do appeciate your comment - it's a good point.

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try not to think of lucid dreaming as some kind of magical thing. it's simply a dream in which you, for whatever reason and for however long, realize that you are dreaming. i think it happens naturally to most people at least once in their lives (a lot of times as children suffering from nightmares). i assume you would agree that it is possible to dream about anything, so a dream about realizing you're dreaming is not too far-fetched. and whether the dream (in which you dream that you're dreaming) is just a really vivid dream with more possibility of interaction than normal or it is the magical "lucid dream", shouldn't make any difference--the outcome is the same: potentially absolute control.

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Originally posted by mongreloctopus


try not to think of lucid dreaming as some kind of magical thing. it's simply a dream in which you, for whatever reason and for however long, realize that you are dreaming. i think it happens naturally to most people at least once in their lives (a lot of times as children suffering from nightmares). i assume you would agree that it is possible to dream about anything, so a dream about realizing you're dreaming is not too far-fetched. and whether the dream (in which you dream that you're dreaming) is just a really vivid dream with more possibility of interaction than normal or it is the magical "lucid dream", shouldn't make any difference--the outcome is the same: potentially absolute control.

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There we go. There's nothing to be skeptical about. Why would it be impossible to know you're dreaming (or at least to think so)?
One other thing btw, is that trying to learn to lucid dream is worth your time either way. It's not just because you'll learn to have lucid dreams, but even if you wouldn't (which is what you seem to be afraid of), it's still fun to remember a lot of your dreams and see what recurring themes you get for instance.
Plus, you say you've already read tons of books on the subject. Isn't it a bit late to try and find out learning to lucid dream is wasting your time?

I certainly don't see lucid dreaming as some magical thing. In fact it's for the opposite reason I'm raising the questions.
From everything I've read, I am beginning to think my experiences in the past have actually been lucid dreams, it's just that I expected more. I expected "wakeful dreams" in which the level of consciousness I attained in dreams would be the same I had while awake, but instead while they were no doubt lucid to a degree, were not as lucid as wakefulness.
Maybe this is why:
When we ride on a bus while we're awake, we'll remember having done so the next day.
When we ride on a bus while we're lucid dreaming, we won't necessarily remember having done so the next day.
Why is there a difference?
Obviously our brains aren't functioning in exactly the same way while we're dreaming, as when we're awake. There's something going on with the part of our brains responsible for memory which is working differently when we're asleep.
That much surely is indisuputible.
Given that, and given how integral memory is to our sense of self-awareness, how it helps us shape our view of the external world and ourselves and how essential it is to our sense of individuality, can we say that lucid dreaming, in which our memory is not functioning as well as it does while we're awake, is a true state of wakefulness?
While lucid one may be to a great degree, is one truly "awake"?
That's my question.

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Originally posted by mongreloctopus
i assume you would agree that it is possible to dream about anything, so a dream about realizing you're dreaming is not too far-fetched. and whether the dream (in which you dream that you're dreaming) is just a really vivid dream with more possibility of interaction than normal or it is the magical "lucid dream", shouldn't make any difference--the outcome is the same: potentially absolute control.

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Lucid dreaming isn't a dream about realizing you're awake, that's dreaming about lucid dreaming which you're describing. A lucid dream is simply a dream in which you are aware that you are dreaming. Of course, maybe that's what you meant and I'm just being a grammar Nazi... but it could be potentially confusing.

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Originally posted by dark side of the sun
Given that, and given how integral memory is to our sense of self-awareness, how it helps us shape our view of the external world and ourselves and how essential it is to our sense of individuality, can we say that lucid dreaming, in which our memory is not functioning as well as it does while we're awake, is a true state of wakefulness? While lucid one may be to a great degree, is one truly "awake"? That's my question.

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Of course lucid dreaming isn't the same as a normal state of wakefulness. You're surrounded by a fully-rendered 3D world that doesn't actually exist except in your mind. Now, unless total waking hallucinations are the norm for you, lucid dreaming won't be the same as being awake. It's not a state of wakefulness. It's an awareness of your dream qua dream. I can't speak for anyone else, but when I'm fully lucid within a dream, I seem to have my waking cognitive functions. Now, I've never tested the extent of those functions by attempting to solve differential equations or writing an essay on Nietzsche, but my reasoning capacity and ability for critical thought are certainly present. These conscious functions will fade if the dream retakes you before you awaken, but while lucid, they are generally available to you. Does that answer your question (or part of it)?

Also, you should absolutely be skeptical about LDing if you've never experienced it before. Skepticism is always a positive trait. Always. Too many people confuse skepticism with professed disbelief and it is to the detriment of all involved. Critical discussions are necessary for the elucidation and further understanding of any topic, and such discussions are not possible if those involved do not take a skeptical perspective. If I hadn't personally experienced LDing, I'm not sure whether I would believe it possible, either. And naturally, there is quite a gulf between believing and knowing.

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They've been made by "enthusiasts" who are trying to prove the existence of lucid dreaming, as opposed to true scientists who
will, in most cases at least, try to disprove a theory until results show otherwise. Otherwise results are very often biased toward positive results[/b]

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. I

scientists are no less 'enthusiasts' who are trying to validate various hypotheses, and hopefully construct a theoretical framework which agrees with their interpetation of reality.
i would argue that scientists ultimately attempt to prove a theory (with controls of course if they are worthy of their title), rather than disprove it. in instances where they are trying to disprove a theory, it is without fail another individual's theory which clashes with their own. meaning they are still trying to prove their own theory, and only secondarily disprove another.

science is a tool used by subjective humans, and thus every scientist is seeking ultimately to validate their own subjective over-arching theory of life it-self.

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'm not saying all authors of lucid dreaming do this, but some of them quite obviously do. Lucid dreaming is still, for the most part a "fringe phenomenon" and while this no way determines whether or not it's legitimate, it has an aura to it which attracts people who are less than impartial when it comes to analysis.
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i certainly agree to some extent. however, i find it important to note that tibetan buddhists were some of the earliest proponents and refiners of the art of lucid dreaming. buddhists as a whole strike me as being just as objective as western scientists, and perhaps even more so. because they fully realize that each individual is subjective, and has no self which is unchanging. therefore, in order to experience objective, unchanging 'reality', they must perceive with an objective, unchanging mode of perception.

buddha was 'awake', and nothing more. he was awareness itself.

there are different degrees of lucidity in waking life, as well as dreamscape. the same mind creates them both. i personally have experienced greater awareness while in a lucid dream than i have in waking life. the memory is more vivid and clear than any waking memory.

in this particular lucid i was as aware and 'in the moment' as i am now, even moreso. i could easily remember everything about my waking self and could have easily recited my name, birthday, address, childhood memories, the square root of 1 000 000, the seven characteristics of biological life, and my opinions and ideals.

i had complete awareness that my physical body was asleep in bed, awash in paralyzing chemicals, and i was aware within a dream. i knew that everything around me (which equalled the vividness and stability of waking life) was created by my mind..the same mind which interpets anything i have EVER perceived, whether waking or asleep.


how do you know you are 'awake' right now? because you are aware.

awake, aware, conscious, lucid...they are all the same thing. IMO awareness, or 'wakefullness', is not restricted by whether one's physical body is paralyzed or not. it is a re-cognition that all is mind.

everything you are experiencing this moment, and will ever experience, is a result of being lucid. unless one is aware of this fact, i would not define them as awake, regardless of what physiological state their body is in.

physiology is what limits our psychology. psychology is limited by our purity of awareness.

:P i'm rather murky today, so i didn't put that as clearly as i would have liked, but i hope you get my point.

one definition of our subject of discussion is - "Dreaming is the subjective experience of imaginary images, sounds/voices, words, thoughts or sensations during sleep, usually involuntarily"

the key word is imaginary. images. the reality you and i perceive, and western scientists seek to explain, is not absolute. it is imaginary/conceptual.
consciousness of that fact is true lucidity, and i can personally vouch for the fact that this 'wakefullness' is possible whenever one realizes they are in a dream.

everything is a dream, regardless of physiological state. to 'perceive' anything is to experience it as external, and outside our 'self'. true objectivity can only happen when one is the 'object'.
true objectivity is the totality of all existence, to the point where nothing is external. All That Is can be the only 'object' that is truly real, and not an imaginary dream.

and there is no way of 'proving' that objective reality.

ultimately one can only know, not prove. and i know that at different times i have been completely awake while physically asleep, and completely asleep while physically awake. :)

i hope you practice lucid dreaming until you know this for yourself. it is very liberating, and changes the way one views reality as a whole. i believe in a more objective, aware manner.

Lucidity is awareness in dreams; enlightenment is awareness in life :wink:

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Originally posted by Peregrinus
Lucidity is awareness in dreams; enlightenment is awareness in life :wink:

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*laughs* or that ^ would have been a whole lot more succinct...

Do a research paper search -- all the proof you need. No need to trust a bunch of us nuts on this forum.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=lucid+...=en&btnG=Search

Thanks for all your replies.
I was pleasantly surprised and to be honest, wasn't expecting such intelligent feedback as you've all given.
I was afraid I might come away a little disappointed, but am in fact looking forward to and striving toward the lucid experience as much as ever.
Cheers to all who commented.

glad you're continuing in your personal experiments with lucid dreaming. be sure to keep us posted once you succeed :wink: