Can you do anything in LD? What about morality?

Hi, all,

I would like to raise the question of morality in lucid dreaming.

Some of us who are advanced in the practise of Lucid Dreaming may wonder about morality and responsiblity in dreams.

If we are lucid, surely, a bad action is a bad action?

What about karma? Isnt killing, and fulfilling bad actions still affecting our psychological development?

I started asking myself the question after the following dream (among others):
I found myself attracted to a young man and being lucid, I tried to force a kiss on him and while pushing me away, he replied that it wasn't because I was "master" of the dream that he should answer to my desires.

And believe me, it wasnt a simple case of enacting some sort of rejection issue, the dream had this special quality, which you visit other planes.
{ For those who know what I'm talking about, those dreams are particularly precise with a recognisalbe richness of the senses: depth of sound, spectrum of colours, stretched sense of time etc.) }

When it is difficult to know when I am in a past life memory, or another plane, or a personal sphere, shouldnt I worry about being righteous at all times?

Or should I let those embarassing memories teach me about my darker side and carry on working on them?

Any thoughts on the subject?

Thanks,

*N*

I see it all like this when I'm in a dream:

it is in my mind, my world and my reality. if I want something i will have it, no mather the obstacle. And since it is in my reality i can decide if it is against MY morals. If I feel murder and rape is okay in my dream then it is, and another i might think, no it's not, so i chill.

I believe people are restricting their fun in dreams if they worry about morals.

Yes, you are right, our mind belongs to us and we do what we want with it,

but what if you ARE SURE that you are not in a place inside your mind, but some place where the people around you are for real (and nor necessarily incarnated on Earth, say)

I always to what I want anyway, but dont you think this is an appropriate question in that case?

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Originally posted by Nedjma
Yes, you are right, our mind belongs to us and we do what we want with it, *

but what if you *ARE SURE that you are not in a place inside your mind, but some place where the people around you are for real (and nor necessarily incarnated on Earth, say)

I always to what I want anyway, but dont you think this is an appropriate question in that case?

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if you mean like a shared dream or something then i might be a bit nicer... if they knew it was a shared dream to, that is... :evil:

I've taken this position a number of times. You might want to do a search on it, there have been a lot of good discussions about it.

My view is that conciousness is conciousness, whether it is waking conciousness or it is lucid conciousness. They are the same, so, therefore, why should you have two sets of morality to which you adhere? One for waking and one for lucid?

Morals are morals and where is the rightiousness if you are doing things in your lucid dreams that you consider immoral during waking life?

Thanks Seeker,

it sounds live a very unified vision of the mind, which I like.

:)

*N*

Well, in the defense of all of the Comic book writers, Action cartoonists, video game developers etc, who sometimes use immoral (sp) scenarios in a story, who may also be the most humble, down-to-earth, benevolent person in "real" life, I will say this:

The distinction between moral and immoral (especially when dealing with dreams) is a matter of perspective. It depends on many more factors than the action itself. It depends on your beliefs on "Reality." Doing something in a lucid dream is only immoral if you believe that dreams are windows to other realms. Even then, it is only immoral if you believe that the DC you are interacting with is a being from one of those other worlds. The existence of these planes are still a matter of debate, and I don't think it's fair to judge anyone as moral or immoral for what actions they take in their dreams without having direct confirmation that they are having some sort of effect on the conscious experience of some separate entity, or that their actions are undeniably placing more negative energy in the cosmos. (Which may very well be true, but who knows this for certain?) However, if negative energy bit is true, then I would figure that the negative energy would only grow if the person doing the act was doing so with negative intentions. If they strongly believed that their actions are having no negative affect in the universe, especially if they are the type that would stop doing the action if they new otherwise, does this still make them immoral?

Granted, I have a very high level of respect for my waking world morals, and I'm not even the type of guy that will commit deeds that I find absolutely evil in a lucid dream (raping, killing children/innocent people for fun, etc) but it is not because I feel that I'd be having some sort of affect on some other astral entity. Maybe my waking world morals have simply developed my distaste for it that carries over into my dreams as well. But I feel there is a definite separation between my imagination and what I think will, somehow, contradict my true morals.

It's a mixed feeling for me.

First off, It's my mind, and I can do with it what I want.

BUT, It's your mind. Killing something in there, who knows, It could be a memory, a feeling, whatever.

It really just depends on your view of things.

Lets imagine someone is having a lucid dream. They take note of every detail. They find a DC and take out a small knife. The DC greets them like an old friend "hi!" they run up to the DC and stab them repeatidly.

The dream is graphic and realistic, the DC is screaming and blood is flying everywhere. The dreamer laughs and finds this excites him..really EXCITES him. The DC is on the floor, nearly dead - but before the DC dies the dreamer decides to have some more fun. The dreamer takes some trophies with him, first the ears, then the eyes, then the tongue and then the intestines. The dream is very realistic, not like a video game.

The dreamer then takes his trophies, and mounts them like a work of art. The dreamer loses control of his lucid dream. But he wakes up smiling, even laughing, and he thinks to himself "That was a lot of fun"

Morality matters in a dream becuase the dream is your head : its your subonscious and your conscious. Whether the dream is lucid, or not, it still reflects you. It would be hypocritical for that dreamer to be against mutilating other human beings, when he DOES enjoy doing it himself.

His dreams reveal that he is NOT against mutilating people, despite whatever he says in waking life.

********************************

Morality is a subjective thing, no one can force you to believe something is morally right or wrong.

Im not saying if you kill someone in a dream that you are going to kill someone in real life :roll: but I am saying what you do in a dream will always reflect YOU.

being moral in a dream IS NOT going to stop you from having fun either :roll: what MOST people concider WRONG, they would not find they had fun doing it in a dream. my friend is vegan, and in a NON lucid dream she found herself eating and tearing apart live frogs. she did not wake up feeling like she had fun.......she did not wake up thinking "I want to have that dream again..YAY!" she felt bad

but thats the point I am trying to make. if you really do concider something morally wrong, even if you do it in a dream, you are NOT going to have fun doing it. you are going to wake up guilt ridden. the dream never fails to reflect you, you will feel guilt if you are against it.

if you have FUN raping an innocent victom in a highly lucid and realistic dream, that doesnt mean you would rape someone in real life..but it does mean..IF you did...IF...and IF you ever did..you would enjoy it. MAYBE LATER YOULL FEEL GUILTY, but in that moment you enjoyed it.

the other thing you have to understand we do a lot of crazy things in our dream that seem to go against our morality. its not really going against our morality, just our social constraints. social constraints have to do with NOW, the culture, and not what mankind will always concider moral. our conscious tells us we shouldn't do these things in the waking world, but our subconscious tells us..were NOT against doing those things either!!

orgies, turning into werewolves gobbling up people, tormenting your teachers, unleashing total chaos at work or school, over throwing the government, even incest for others, acting like a wild animal - the list goes on!!! :banana:

if you feel the same about mutilating/rape/murder etc in dreams as you do in real life... i need to be locked in and never to be let out again :roll:

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Originally posted by Krippe
if you feel the same about mutilating/rape/murder etc in dreams as you do in real life... i need to be locked in and never to be let out again * :roll:

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Hmm....is that maybe a little guilt starting to show through. I wish your adopter was here, O'nus would have fun with this!

I guess juroara nailed it best. If you feel even the slightest hint of guilt or remorse for something you do in a lucid dream, no matter how hard you try to reason it away, then you have most likely violated your morals.

Oneironaut you draw the line at possibly hurting real astral beings as your limits, this is commendable, however, are you hurting your own spirit by doing these things?

One thing I am afraid of is moral erosion. If you do something long enough in a lucid dream, how long is it going to be before you begin to wonder what it would be like to do that thing in waking life? All you guys reading this, I know you've had thoughts of raping someone at some time, most likely because of how the woman has treated you. Does raping in a lucid dream provide an outlet for your anger or does it erode you resolve never to commit a rape?

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Originally posted by Seeker


Hmm....is that maybe a little guilt starting to show through.

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Never! Guilt is for the weak!
*washes himself with sandpaper and gasoline* GO AWAY! GO AWAY!!

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Originally posted by Seeker


Oneironaut you draw the line at possibly hurting real astral beings as your limits, this is commendable, however, are you hurting your own spirit by doing these things? *

One thing I am afraid of is moral erosion. *If you do something long enough in a lucid dream, how long is it going to be before you begin to wonder what it would be like to do that thing in waking life? *All you guys reading this, I know you've had thoughts of raping someone at some time, most likely because of how the woman has treated you. *Does raping in a lucid dream provide an outlet for your anger or does it erode you resolve never to commit a rape?

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As far as my spirit is concerned, I don't believe I'm hurting it. The reason being is because I believe in the harmlessness of my dream actions. Think about it this way: I strongly believe in my ability to separate an experience that I would see only as fictional and an experience that I would see, even in the slightest, as threatening to my morals. It is not that I am slowly eroding away to a negative force, because I honestly believe that there is no negative force in my imaginary actions. There is no guilt because there is no wrong. Stepping on a dog’s foot in waking life makes me feel guilty. Playing Grand Theft Auto does not.
Do I find the concept of peoples’ cars getting stolen and shooting cops fun? Absolutely not. Is it an interesting experience when put into the storyline of a videogame where there is a vast distinction between fantasy and make believe? I think so. Why? Because violence without consequence is not violence. Fighting without a desire to seriously injure the other person is Sparring. It is mutual sport, most professionally, without any negative energy.
When two Shaolin monks are practicing day in and day out, sparring each other for conditioning, does it mean they are “enjoying violence?” No. They are doing what they are doing for self defense and experience. Even if they Love sparring. Even if they eat sleep and breathe martial arts, does this mean that every fighter is more prone to commit acts of violence outside of their morally inconsequential training? I really don’t think so. Of course some of them are, but that is a testament to the morals they had before taking up martial arts, or the views of morality that they developed Outside the scope of martial arts training, itself.
Why is this? Because any disciplined Monk/Martial artist is able to make that distinction between sport and violence. There is a barrier there that only the morally undisciplined (imo) cross. THAT is precisely how I see fighting in my dreams. It is a way to experience something without consequence. It is a way to fulfill (generally) every human’s thirst for action and adventure without breaking any waking world morals to do it. I think the ability to live on two sides of that proverbial fence is but one interpretation of the essence of yin and yang.

As far as the rape analogy goes: I have never, and will never (as far as I’m concerned) thought about rape in any sort of positive light. Not even to the credit of pure curiosity. Even so, I know where you’re coming from. There is always the possibility that someone’s curiosity can get the better of them and they can become more desensitized to the concept of rape, child molestation, etc. etc. but, just like with my martial arts analogy, I think this is unique from person to person, not universal, and stems from moral instabilities that go a little deeper than “exposure to the experience” alone.

In other words, what is dangerous to the morals of some is absolutely benign to others. It depends on their beliefs, background, philosophy, and virtues. Is imagination an outlet for wish-fulfillment or an arena for inconsequential experience? Only the person doing the imagining can say.

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Originally posted by Krippe
if you feel the same about mutilating/rape/murder etc in dreams as you do in real life... i need to be locked in and never to be let out again * :roll:

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ok...male? figures. I hope the only reason why you dream of rape is becuase as a male you just have no clue........

you sound ignorant as to what rape really is. call me a bitch or get me banned from this forum. I dont care. if you really are dreaming of rape and are a-ok about it then you are on your way to becoming a rapist. Rape is easier to commit than murder or killing someone. And unlike killing someone on the spot becuase you became angry and lost control of your emotions, rape is not like that. Its starts in your head. It starts in your fantasies. In your DREAMS. Killing does not.

Rape is not a person forcing themself on another while that other screams. No, sweetheart. Thats not rape. That is not rape. There is nothing short of funny, cute or even sexy about rape.

Do you have any clue how the female body works? Do you really thinks she has to want sex to let you in? Its not like an erection. No desire, absolutely no desire is needed from the body to penetrate a woman. The flesh there is stretchable for child birth. An opening is always present. Do you understand? The biggest myth that ignorant guys buy into is that a woman has to want it to be penetrated.

Lets give you some real rape scenarios if this is still not settling in. A single mother and her daughter come home after eating out. The went out to eat LUNCH. Its day time. The sun is up and shining bright. They share one thing in common with the average rape victom - THEY LIVE ON THE FIRST FLOOR. Thats the only crime a woman has to commit to be an EASY rape victom. The rapists watches them from the window and waits for them to get comfortable. He makes sure they put their purses down, and their cell phones away from their grasp. He makes his entry as quiet as possible.

The mother hears something, paranoid she gets up. But before either the daugher or mother can react he shots the mother. Shes not dead. Still breathing. But its enough to shock her. And its enough to have the daughter lose all sense and control. The rapists commands the daughter to undress. Shes still in shock screaming and doesnt do anything. So the rapist moves to the mother trying to stop the bleeding, and puts the gun to the mothers head instead. And he commands again "Undress"

Mental processes kick in, and the daughter doesn't know how she did it, but she did. Shes naked. The rapist then commands that she undresses her mother now. He moves the gun to the daughters head, and sometimes he presses the gun very harshly into her skin to make it very clear how serious he is. Is he going to shot her in the head? No. But the rapist knows to put a gun to someones head is control.

He commands them both to lay down next to eachother, so that both are in plain view. And he thinks which is sweeter. A mom watching her daughter get raped or a daughter watching her mom get raped? He decides both are just as good so he does both. And when he rapes one he holds the gun at the other. He remains in control and this is what he likes most about rape. Control and controlling a woman.

There is no pleasure for the daughter and mother. No orgasm. Nothing.

The mother passes out. His time is spent. By now the nieghbors must have called the police if theyre smart. He tells the daughter not to move. The daughter is so afraid and out of her mind she can't tell if the rapist has left or if hes right behind her waiting to see if she moves, waiting to kill her.

The mother is rushed to the hospital, shes lives. The police ask the daughter to describe the rapist, but shes tramautized, she can't. The police only want to help and stop the rapist, but sadly, like most victoms she doesnt even want to talk to the police.

The rapist walks away. And he tells himself he did nothing wrong. Its not like he killed anyone, it was never his intention. All he did was have no sex. No harm done right? And he thinks to himself, they probably enjoyed it. He goes home to his own wife and his OWN daughter.

This is reality and this happens all the damn bloody time. Do you REALLY know what rape is like? Have you ever met a homophobic man whos temper rose with the words anal-sex :mad: ? Any guesses as to why? Are your dreams REALLY like this?

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http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art13545.asp
"If you are a man and have recurring dreams of raping someone, please talk to someone. You may have issues that may lead to domestic violence or actual rape."

http://www.dcrcc.org/myths.htm

http://www.dcrcc.org/assault-facts.htm
"51-60% of college men report they would rape a woman if they were certain that they would get away with it. One out of twelve college men surveyed had committed acts that met the legal definition of rape; 84% of these men said what they did was DEFINITELY not rape."

"84% of rapes go unreported"

Thanks for your posts, guys.

I shouldnt worry too much about what one does in dreams:

We live in animal bodies and our brain enacts natural pulsions of construction and (self-)destruction during our sleep. That is sound, and always will be.

I was more thinking of how to behave when you reach other worlds than your own: do our actions count as for good Karma, bad Karma..etc.etc.

I will definitely settle with the idea that you choose to see as"bad" and "good" is subjective to your own development.

Also, to be honest, I was more concerned about not helping myself getting memories that my Waking Self finds difficult to deal with; rather than harming others in dreams.

Seeker, you called it "mental erosion". I would now call it "mental struggle", as we all struggle to make opposites live together in this world.

Thanks again!

*N*

Juroara, Kippe,

You're making me feel uncomfortable talking about those nasty stuff.

As I said, I wouldnt start talking about animal pulsions too much.

This is a rather dark subject to raise and not everyone is ready to understand the human being with all its beauty and horror.

(Remember what this forum is for, ok?)

Cheers,

N

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Originally posted by juroara+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juroara)</div>

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if you feel the same about mutilating/rape/murder etc in dreams as you do in real life... i need to be locked in and never to be let out again * :roll:

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ok...male? figures. I hope the only reason why you dream of rape is becuase as a male you just have no clue........[/b]

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ouch... soft spot?

anyway, I havent raped anyone in my dreams (as i can recall anyway...), the womens in my dreams love me for some reason... either way i dreamed of people being raped (hell i dreamed i was one of the victims...), not by me, i've also dreamed about murdering my own mother that doesnt mean that i want her dead (she's a fantastic mother). I dont like how you rant me because of stuff happening in my dreams! My dreams are often with a dark atmosphere, nothing i can control (atleast not in the non-lucid ones).
Still if I would one night find rape intresting or amusing (on some sick dream logic state) I would set it up (maybe the daughter and mother) in THE DREAM. never IRL. I respect peple's bodies and etc etc <moral stuff>
I find it very disturbing that you are that judgemental about me for the sttuff that i dreamt about. but if it's a sensitive subject for you then i'm sorry.

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Originally posted by Krippe

I find it very disturbing that you are that judgemental about me for the sttuff that i dreamt about.

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great way to use the word disturbing and turn around a situation and completely ignore what I am saying

if you dont dream about raping then dont say you do, and thats partly why I made my post becuase I didnt think you really did. I doubt most guys even think the same thing as females when the word "rape" is even said ...to be raped in a dream is an age old dream theme that tends to mean either 1. you want sex 2. you feel like a victom. do not lump it together with the same as raping.

to actually rape someone in a dream shows a desire that you WANT to rape. Especially if you are lucid. There is no way around this reality. We do in lucid dreams what we desire. that reality and this reality remains : most victoms will always be female, and most rapists will always be male. you are male. I am female

and how can you ask me, a FEMALE, to not be the least disturbed if a MAN
...........................gets turned on by the SLIGHTEST in dreams or in waking by-----rape???

how can I say with comfort "Oh that doesn't mean he will rape, its just a dream" when no one understands the switch between a rapist and a non rapist. rapists ARE NOT INSANE, and they act like normal men outside of rape. the first step to stopping rape is educating MEN why MEN rape. but how can we do that if we carry the attitude "its okay to dream about raping women whenever you want"

:shakehead2:

rapists aren't born. they are taught as whole by OTHER MEN that raping is desirable, cool, sexy and ok. so what do you think the attitude "its ok to rape women in dreams" does??

but whatever, I'm tired :shakehead2:

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Originally posted by juroara+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juroara)</div>

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I find it very disturbing that you are that judgemental about me for the sttuff that i dreamt about.

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great way to use the word disturbing and turn around a situation and completely ignore what I am saying

if you dont dream about raping then dont say you do, and thats partly why I made my post becuase I didnt think you really did. I doubt most guys even think the same thing as females when the word "rape" is even said ...to be raped in a dream is an age old dream theme that tends to mean either 1. you want sex 2. you feel like a victom. do not lump it together with the same as raping.

to actually rape someone in a dream shows a desire that you WANT to rape. Especially if you are lucid. There is no way around this reality. We do in lucid dreams what we desire. that reality and this reality remains : most victoms will always be female, and most rapists will always be male. you are male. I am female

and how can you ask me, a FEMALE, to not be the least disturbed if a MAN
...........................gets turned on by the SLIGHTEST in dreams or in waking by-----rape???

how can I say with comfort "Oh that doesn't mean he will rape, its just a dream" when no one understands the switch between a rapist and a non rapist. rapists ARE NOT INSANE, and they act like normal men outside of rape. the first step to stopping rape is educating MEN why MEN rape. but how can we do that if we carry the attitude "its okay to dream about raping women whenever you want"

:shakehead2:

rapists aren't born. they are taught as whole by OTHER MEN that raping is desirable, cool, sexy and ok. so what do you think the attitude "its ok to rape women in dreams" does??

but whatever, I'm tired :shakehead2:[/b]

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Wtf? I did not try to work it around or anything like that, i just dont like being labeled as an ignorant stupid male fu*k just because of my dreams! and stop lecturing me about raping! i promise oyu I won't rape anyone...


...in the waking world

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if you feel the same about mutilating/rape/murder etc in dreams as you do in real life... i need to be locked in and never to be let out again * :roll:

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ok...male? figures. I hope the only reason why you dream of rape is becuase as a male you just have no clue........

you sound ignorant as to what rape really is. call me a bitch or get me banned from this forum. I dont care. if you really are dreaming of rape and are a-ok about it then you are on your way to becoming a rapist. Rape is easier to commit than murder or killing someone. And unlike killing someone on the spot becuase you became angry and lost control of your emotions, rape is not like that. Its starts in your head. It starts in your fantasies. In your DREAMS. Killing does not.

Rape is not a person forcing themself on another while that other screams. No, sweetheart. Thats not rape. That is not rape. There is nothing short of funny, cute or even sexy about rape.

Do you have any clue how the female body works? Do you really thinks she has to want sex to let you in? Its not like an erection. No desire, absolutely no desire is needed from the body to penetrate a woman. The flesh there is stretchable for child birth. An opening is always present. Do you understand? The biggest myth that ignorant guys buy into is that a woman has to want it to be penetrated.

Lets give you some real rape scenarios if this is still not settling in. A single mother and her daughter come home after eating out. The went out to eat LUNCH. Its day time. The sun is up and shining bright. They share one thing in common with the average rape victom - THEY LIVE ON THE FIRST FLOOR. Thats the only crime a woman has to commit to be an EASY rape victom. The rapists watches them from the window and waits for them to get comfortable. He makes sure they put their purses down, and their cell phones away from their grasp. He makes his entry as quiet as possible.

The mother hears something, paranoid she gets up. But before either the daugher or mother can react he shots the mother. Shes not dead. Still breathing. But its enough to shock her. And its enough to have the daughter lose all sense and control. The rapists commands the daughter to undress. Shes still in shock screaming and doesnt do anything. So the rapist moves to the mother trying to stop the bleeding, and puts the gun to the mothers head instead. And he commands again "Undress"

Mental processes kick in, and the daughter doesn't know how she did it, but she did. Shes naked. The rapist then commands that she undresses her mother now. He moves the gun to the daughters head, and sometimes he presses the gun very harshly into her skin to make it very clear how serious he is. Is he going to shot her in the head? No. But the rapist knows to put a gun to someones head is control.

He commands them both to lay down next to eachother, so that both are in plain view. And he thinks which is sweeter. A mom watching her daughter get raped or a daughter watching her mom get raped? He decides both are just as good so he does both. And when he rapes one he holds the gun at the other. He remains in control and this is what he likes most about rape. Control and controlling a woman.

There is no pleasure for the daughter and mother. No orgasm. Nothing.

The mother passes out. His time is spent. By now the nieghbors must have called the police if theyre smart. He tells the daughter not to move. The daughter is so afraid and out of her mind she can't tell if the rapist has left or if hes right behind her waiting to see if she moves, waiting to kill her.

The mother is rushed to the hospital, shes lives. The police ask the daughter to describe the rapist, but shes tramautized, she can't. The police only want to help and stop the rapist, but sadly, like most victoms she doesnt even want to talk to the police.

The rapist walks away. And he tells himself he did nothing wrong. Its not like he killed anyone, it was never his intention. All he did was have no sex. No harm done right? And he thinks to himself, they probably enjoyed it. He goes home to his own wife and his OWN daughter.

This is reality and this happens all the damn bloody time. Do you REALLY know what rape is like? Have you ever met a homophobic man whos temper rose with the words anal-sex :mad: ? Any guesses as to why? Are your dreams REALLY like this?

[/b]

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:lolxtreme: irony!

Who votes that Nedjma gets her thread back?
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/529...edhgclr5bl.gif

'Ey Jared,
Nice sig. :goodjob2:

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Originally posted by Oneironaut


'Ey Jared, *
Nice sig. :goodjob2:

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haha. i hope you don't mind. I wasn't sure if you made it up or not. I'll add your name if you want.

ha. i like it.

Nah, of course I don't mind. Glad ya like it. :teeth:
And yeah, I made it up for that thread. Heh. You don't have to put my name by it...but it woouuuullld be nice. :wink:

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Originally posted by Oneironaut
Nah, of course I don't mind. Glad ya like it. :teeth:
And yeah, I made it up for that thread. Heh. You don't have to put my name by it...but it woouuuullld be nice. :wink:

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Awesome. I will put your name there, on other forums i always do. I just didnt want to look like a lucid dreaming noob :-P . I figured the phrase might have been tossed around all the time.

morality has absolutely no grounding in dreams.

If I'm in a dream then why should i care about what I do? if I rape someone or mutilate someone (and enjoy it) then who cares (note: I haven't mutilated anyone in my dreams :P) if you do do it and actually enjoy it then its not like your hurting anyone. I personally do all kinds of sick evil things in my dreams/ lucid dreams. Does that make me a bad person? no it doesn't, if I did it in real life or though "man i wish i could rape ___ in real life" then yes, i would be a bad person. you see, in dreams nothing that you could ever do would ever hurt anyone other than yourself, thus if I said to myself within the dream: "I wonder what it would be like to cause a DC intense pain with a razor blade" (I haven't done this and likely wont for a long long time as I find it disgusting) would that make me any less a good person in real life? of course not.
you see lucid dreams and dreams are a gateway to your deepest desires, within them you can do anything you've ever wanted to do but absolutely wouldn't in real life due to its effect on other consciousnesses (raping a women or mutilating a person would scar that person for the rest of their lives. they would always remember that time that guy raped them or tormented them) with a DC though the only thing that you affect is yourself, raping a DC is like thinking about raping someone, it doesn't affect anyone

Your all talking about people becoming desensitized by doing it in your dreams and then committing the act in real life.
does a 17 year old that's playing GTA shooting up cops and prostitutes go out and buy a gun so he can do it in real life? I would have to say no to that, although there are always the people that have already been thinking about buying a gun and going on a killing spree that might play the game and it tips them over the edge.
the same goes for LDs, If I go on a killing spree and mutilate everyone i see with my exacto knife then I'll know that "this is just a dream" within the dream I'm affecting no ones short life experiences" (we only have 75 years, everyone deserves to be able to live without fear from past traumas getting in the way of their experiences) in telling myself that i would proceed to kill everything in sight knowing that it was just an extremely detailed game environment created by my mind.
on the other hand there's the people that were already always thinking about raping women and wanted to do it in real life, but they didn't for the fear of getting caught (they didn't care about what effect it would have on the woman, just what effect it could possibly have on them) since they haven't done it yet for fear of getting caught they decide to just do the next best thing and rape women in their dreams. so they have 10 LDs about rape and in the following days they constantly think about the expressions on the women's faces and the intense pain they were causing to the DCs. then finally, they decide that dreaming about it isn't enough for them, they have to have the real thing. so they go out and rape.

the difference between the above two people is obvious: one was just raping women in his dreams so he would know what it was like (or to fulfill a sexual urge) and the other had been thinking about rape long before he had the dream and he did it in the dream only because he couldn't do it in real life. so what I'm saying is that its only wrong to do bad deeds in dreams if the only reason your doing them is because you cant do them in real life due to laws and chance of imprisonment (although of course its not wrong to drive your car really fast in a dream just because you can, its only wrong if it would hurt another person)

hope you got that.

(although I know anything that I say to you your going to blow off and flame me about it just because I said its fine to rape in dreams under certain circumstances. but I'm sure you'll just blow through the rest/ not read it :))

note that I do not under any circumstances, endorse rape of any kind outside of your head, it destroys lives. remember, when you rape someone your giving them a traumatic stimulation that they'll never forget, rape makes an impact that never goes away. anyone who has raped or rapes women in real life deserves to be held down and ass-raped by another man. I'm sure they'll enjoy it just as much as the women they raped did. :|

You may think I'm disgusting and totally immoral but the way I see it is that life's short, I don't want to limit my experiences just because it would be bad to do it in real life.
in the end all we have is our experiences and memories. so why limit them if building them doesn't hurt anyone in any way?


</huge-rant>

EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is that its not the actual act that's immoral, its the fact that your affecting another person by committing that act (would it be wrong to rape a blow up sex toy? :P) since your in a dream everything your seeing may as well be mindless inanimate objects, thus anything that you do to them will have no affect on them.

i agree that there are morals connected to lucid dreaming, but ultimately in real life these are the things that could hold you back in a way, just as fears do and in dreams you go beyond this and try new things, because there are no concequences to your actions, what i am trying to say is that keep these actions in the dream world, and everything will be fine...for me lately this has presented a particular problem, because i am experimenting with dream invading, i entered someones dream that i knew and i tried to terrorise them, thank god it didnt go through properly, because if it did then i would never forgive myself, because i am good friends with this person, and i dont want to do anything that would make them lose trust in me...

so keep these actions in the dream world, but when experimenting with invading dreams you should limit these actions by a fair amount...

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Originally posted by Seeker


All you guys reading this, I know you've had thoughts of raping someone at some time, most likely because of how the woman has treated you. Does raping in a lucid dream provide an outlet for your anger or does it erode you resolve never to commit a rape?

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I tried to stay out of this 1 but i was most surprised by that 1 and uneasy. I can't believe ud say somthing like. When i come to the idea of rape my mind just forcialbly goes blank. I can say iv never mind settled on the idea of rapeing any one. Its so distrubing i don't see how one can even imagine doing that to some 1 else. But for one to even consider the idea is...well it gives negative vibes?

I had problems with just having sex in general with lucid charecters. But weve already taken are stances on those havn't we ^_^. Back when i was first Ld'ing id ask a dream charecter if they wanted to have sex, and if they said yeh, then well....why not. *rubs back of head* But due to stupid seeker ,I don't think i can even do that anymore at least not on any sort of consciouse level.

Iv had my share scary dreams, but iv also had one where i was raped (by a male). Thats a different kind of scary, let me u lol. The idea of being violated, and so many more thought i wont even go on to explain.

The people that don't consider the feelings of others, even dream charecters. Make me sad : (

they're constructs of your mind, they don't exist. all they are is nerve ending firing off creating an illusion of you seeing a person, they exist on no level other than that of the imagination, and they cease to exist when you wake up. but most of all, they aren't carriers of consciousness, you have to on some level tell them what to do before they can do it, hurting them is merely imagining hurting a person that will die the second you forget about him whether you hurt him or if you don't. it has no consequences other than those that you put upon it. (and those apply only to yourself)

think about that next time your worried about hurting a dream characters feelings :|

yeah but when it comes to rape, even though dreams are supposed to be free and everything, it just seems wrong, because if some people like it, it may give some people thoughts about doing it in real life, but in retrospect, as i said in my previous post as long as these thoughts stay in the dream world then its OK...even though your conscience may eat at you for doing such a thing, even in your dream, but the fact still remains that it never happened, so before you can make a decision you must ask yourself, did things in you dream actually happen, or dont they count... because when it comes to shared dreams, dreams are no longer private, so if you do something to someone in a shared dream which they remember then very complex issues could occur...

shared dreaming and dreaming being on other planes of existence are whole other areas of discussion completely.

if you were sharing the dream with other consciousnesses then yes, you would have to be totally moral just like real life or else it would be the same as doing it in real life

Folks, I guess all of this is just an artifact of my faith. Whatever happened to "Whoever looks upon a woman with lust commits adultary in his heart"?

My concience will not allow me to do anything in a lucid dream that I will not do in waking life. Lucid dreaming is the ultimate litmus test to determine your motivation.

Look inside, do you refrain from doing something in waking life because you know it is wrong or because you are afraid of the consequences?

Lucid dreaming is the ultimate consequence free environment in which to determine this.

Shawndow, I seem to remember the last time I was arguing this point, wasn't it you that told me I had ruined it for you? I cannot remember for sure, it's been at least two years ago.

Quote:

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Originally posted by BillyBob_001
morality has absolutely no grounding in dreams.

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You constantly say this on the grounds that the dream character is nothing, illusionary, imaginary, fictional. I say morality does matter. But it has NOTHING to do with the dream characters. They aren't 'real people'. But morality doesn't disappear in the dreaming.

I am not saying you would actually commit that crime in real life if you like to commit it in a dream. But I am saying, if you are trully morally against something, you will feel GUILT. No guilt of any kind, not now or later, then not against it.

Imagine a homophobic man, completely and utterly against homosexuality. Is he not a hypocrite if he dreams about analing a man in a dream? And enjoys it?

Will he have sex with a man in real life now? Thats not the point. Is having sex with the dream character the issue? The dream character is not a real person, so thats not point either. So how can it be hypocritical for a antihomosexual male to dream about having sex with a male DC, if the DC isn't even real?

Does a homosexual have to have sex to know hes gay? :roll: No

Then it is hypocritical, and against his morality. He ENJOYED the dream experience. Then he WILL enjoy the real thing.

Can a vegan go to Mc Donalds in a dream, and order the fattest beef burger with tripple cheese, and enjoy it without regret?? Eat from a DREAM fast food industry?? Its not like the Mc Donalds was real or the tripple cheesburger, so why does it matter?

Is not having fun sex in a dream a good SUBSTITUTE for the real thing when you need it???? Then the vegan is being hypocritical to their own point of views and what they would concider an immoral pleasure.

Can a devout christian dream about worshipping Satan/Lucifer as their Lord, praising him as God? And wake up being happy about it????? :shakehead2: No, not if they are a devout christian.

So then.....it is NOT possible to dream about something you truly are MORALLY against, without feeling some guilt or regret. Then if a person dreams about raping, a NORMAL rape scene like the one I posted, and if they feel no guilt, no remorse, but instead enjoy it - - - Then they are not TRULY against raping.

*Rape is much more than jumping on top of a person and humping them*


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Ok. I hear you screaming!! "BUT I KILL PEOPLE IN MY DREAMS!! I BLOW UP PEOLE IN MY DREAMS! BUT I WOULDNT KILL IN REAL LIFE".

Maybe you took a knife in a dream and gutted someone open, watched their intestines fall. Maybe you had some oversized gun and blew off a couple of heads. Or maybe you went primal and starting eating people alive. So according to what I said above......or you.....against....Killing humans??

NOOO YOU ARE NOT

I don't mean to burst the bubble, but only the most saintly of human beings are truly against killing.

You must be against drunk driving, capital punishment, you must be against the right to bear arms. You must be against cops bearing guns. You must be against SELF DEFENSE if it means to kill. You must be against DEFENDING a loved one if you have to kill. Against abortion. You must be against any and all weapons a nation holds. You must be against the right for a nation to have soldiers or an army. You must be against any killing that happens in war, from either side, for whatever the reason. You must even be against killing Hitler *if we could*..........And you must be against killing as entertainment - even video games.

Most of us..are not against all of the above. In war, there is no good or evil side. There is only your side and the enemys side. And in war, you kill the enemy. War is been apart of humanity since we first walked the earth. "Killing the enemy" is in our subconsious as much as being a "hunterer" and "gatherer" is. Killing is deeply rooted in the human nature.

What about video games and violent movies? Video games and violent movies MAY not affect us subconsciously. But it does already show that on a subconscious level we are ALREADY NOT AGAINST KILLING. Its a sport, a game, hunting. And all of my male cousins who played violent video games all day long and thought it was the most coolest thing in the world to do, are in the army right now, in Iraq with their own guns and weapons that kill.

Being morally against killing for the most part simply means...you HOPE you never have to do it.

************************************************** *****

So why am I so iffy about dreaming about raping above all other things?

Show me a situation where raping is OK, and I will tell you its OK to dream about it. And since there is no situation, I will remain firm. And if you...ENJOY...raping in a dream. Then you WILL enjoy it in real life.

And if you really are, truthfully against something, like raping..but know you can ENJOY raping. Can that ever be an even bigger problem for yourself!

************************************************** *****

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morality has absolutely no grounding in dreams. [/b]

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you see lucid dreams and dreams are a gateway to your deepest desires, within them you can do anything you've ever wanted to do but absolutely wouldn't in real life[/b]

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Quote:

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so what I'm saying is that its only wrong to do bad deeds in dreams if..[/b]

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billybob, youre funny! :D

you mentioned scenario 1. where a man dreams about raping, just once to see what its like, to see if he enjoys it.
and you mentioned scenario 2. where a man wants to rape but can't, so he dreams about it. but dreams aren't enough so he goes out and rapes anyways

but you didn't mention scenario 3. And scenario 3 is scenario 1, if the man enjoys it and felt no regret, no disgust, no guilt. So scenario 1 keeps dreaming about it. And again......and again......and again....and again.....and again....and again...do you see where I am going with this?

Morality in dreams? Big topic. Okay, my thoughts:

Dreams all happen inside our own head. They're just like conscious thoughts and fantasies and daydreams, except that we don't have as much control over them. Even in lucids, where, though we may control our own actions, and to a limited extent (which varies) the world around us in our dreams. But, the world itself, is a projection of our minds, our subconscious.

Now, I don't believe in morality in the objective sense. I, myself, have strong subjective morals, on a lot of issues. So, I think there are two questions here to be answered.

What reason is there to let our own subjective moral values affect our actions within dreams, considering that our actions within dreams do not have any affect on anyone other than ourselves?

Why should we let society's moral judgements to impact upon what we do in our dreams, considering that, as outside society cannot see into our dreams, what we do in our dreams has no connection whatsoever to society?

My answer to both qestions, is, that there is no reason to act in accordance with morality in our dreams. Either our own moral codes, OR society's. Rather, dreams are a playground for our subconscious desires.

HOWEVER.

What you do in a dream, lucid or otherwise, can tell you a good deal about yourself. If you rape, murder, etc, in your dream... what does that say about you, and your subconscious? I'm no saint. But, for the most part, I find that my dreams are places in which I do not try to hurt anyone else, and in which I have a positive relationship to most dream characters. I think, for me, that's a good sign.

I think the lesson to be learnt, is that moral codes act a lot as chains on the human mind, suppressing the deeper, subconscious urges. In a dream, those chains can, potentially disappear. For some people, the urges let loose are ones that... well... are dark. For others, they are mostly good and harmless.

Should you let your moral codes constrain your actions in a dream? No. If you want to rape a dream character, there is no logical reason why moral codes should stop you. But, I think you should step back, and take a long, hard and critical look at why, in the first place, you have that DESIRE to rape or hurt others, that morality usually suppresses.

Even in the most vivid LDs, your sense of reality is skewed. I have done some things I would never do in real life while in dreams, even in LDs.

I once had an LD where I was just going around killing people. It wasn't graphic or anything, more like a video game, yet in the dream, despite me being lucid, it was logical and made sense. Things seemed different, as if my mind was trapped in a single strain of thought. I didn't actually realize that what I was doing was wrong. Still, I woke up feeling absolutely terrible, in the middle of the night, with an extreme sense of forboding evil.

When you're in a dream, your moral codes are, for the most part, forgotten. Even if you wake and feel absolutely awful about something, in a dream, nothing seems exactly real, including your feelings. Strong feelings and actions can happen in a dream that don't make sense at all and have no real relation to our waking life. It all simply seems harmless, many times.

A single thought or quick memory can become your life in a dream. No matter how you feel about it in waking life, it will seem okay in your dream, sometimes even if you're lucid.

This is something I think about quite often. I adhere to my morals whenever I am concious, and usually when I am not. ( I say usually because I can't think of a situation when I did something bad while not lucid, but I don't remember all of my dreams, so it is possible.) I think it is because, they are actually MY morals. My morals do not come from real life social consequences. Unfortunately, many people's morals do. So I agree, that if you truly enjoy doing something awful in a dream and feel no regret when reflecting on the experience after waking up, then you aren't morally against it. You just are too afraid of the real life consequences to actually do it.

I do beleive that not all dreaming occurs inside your head and that you may not be able to tell if you are interacting with DCs or actual concious entities. No, I can't pull any scientific evidence out of my arse to prove this. Lucky for me, I don't need something to be validated by someone in a lab to beleive it is possible. I prefer to keep an open mind to anything, so even if I did want to try out something in a dream that I'd never do in real life, there is no way that I could because I can not be 100% sure that the person is just a figment of my imagination. Even if I was, I couldn't be sure that I wouldn't be affecting myself in a negative way.

You may think that dreams are just for fun, that they are only in your head, and that no harm will come to you or anyone else because of your actions in a dream, but how can you possibly know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are right? Because humanity hasn't classified and quantified it and given it Humanity's Seal of Existence? Science has discovered how our brains, emotions, and dreams physically function, but how do those discoveries make anything beyond that impossible? We know that everything we feel, see, experience in any way are chemical reactions in the brain, neurotransmissions, etc. But how do we know that everything we experience is "just" that? How does observing a physical reaction make a spiritual cause impossible? This way of thinking, which seems to be pretty prevalent, just completely boggles my mind. Everything that has been proved to be true by science existed before the day we discovered it , studied it, and deemed, "OK, this is real." I don't remember the scientific community, coming forth and saying "Good news, we've discovered everything." One day, science may prove that there are shared dreaming experiences and other planes of existence that we enter when we dream. If you personally beleive that it is even remotely possible that some dreams occur outside of your head, I can't see how you could check your morals at the door. If you don't beleive this is possible and go around raping and torturing people for fun, I hope that you are right and also hope that I never meet you in real life, especially on the day that you are no longer afraid of social consequences.

yes, certainly.

it is my contention that the primary use of Lucid Dreaming is to bring some sense of Integration and Synthesis between the Civilized Waking Consciousness and the more Primitive Dream Persona.

Many people can hardly fail to notice that their Dream Personas are not so highly atoned to the finer moral distinctions as our Waking Selves. There are less inhabitions regarding both sexual and violent activities. This is because the uninstructed and elementary Dream Persona is simply more Primitive then our waking selves. Lucid Dreaming can be used to correct this. But, remember, Lucid Dreaming is of rather recent invention, for most of us. Before there was Lucid Dreaming, there was Dream Work which focussed largely on Auto Suggestion. One would reflect on one's dream actions and resolve to behave in a more moral and civilized manner and throughout the day one would go over such resolutions again and again. and one would find that one's dreams would moralize and then spiritualize, turning into something of a Spiritual Quest.

When one once decides to climb out of the bottoms of depravity, then one is then put on a journey to the Top.

In one of my first Visionary Dreams, the Goddess Oracle had told me "Only those at the bottom cannot go to the Top" and She pointed off into the distance at this steep tiered Tower Mountain.

Anyway, such Moral Resolutions will help you attain spontaneous Lucid Dreams. As you encounter these moments of Moral Choice of which you have made the object of your waking resolutions then there will be that spark of Waking Intrusion into the contemplations of your Dream Persona which will trigger Lucidity.

Also, as your impulse control improves at the level of your Dream Persona, I can't help but to think your Waking Impulse Control will improve. We may suppose our Waking Selves are bulwarks of restrained and wise decision making, but how often do people even while awake get into silly but destructive fights or end up with the most inappropriate and mismatched of sexual partners? As one trains one's Dream Persona to be less prone to instinctive and primitive urge and impulse, so it is that our Waking Personalities may also be more manageable.

yet, it is the belief of many Lucid Dreamers that the domain of their Lucid Dreams should be an arena for unrestrained violence and sloppy sex. Well, how can we suppose that such moral decadance does not run over into the fabric of one's waking life? yes, while it hardly matters what school children think and do -- the little savages -- but children seamlessly grow into adults, and then what was once just considered good fun becomes the substance of perversion, abuse and crime. Moral Decadance comes out in the end.

so, yes, forget all the fun that Evil can be, and resolve to become a better person.

We dont like to rape in real life because most people care about people too much to hurt them and thats where our conscious comes in. But in lucid dreams, that factor becomes nonexistent. Meaning there is no real person, so there is no person to hurt. Thats why some people would like to rape in their dreams. And of course people would like to rape if it wasnt hurting anyone. Its just having sex without the other person wanting it and everybody likes sex. Same goes for stealing, killing, and all that. I think we can do it in dreams and not be uncomfortable cause we know its not hurting anyone. We can do it in videogames cause we know its not hurting anyone. I mean the only reason our conscious comes up at all is because we know that its a real person, with real feelings, and a real life. If its not a real person then its the equivalent of killing or stealing from a statue. :lol: Now would you feel guilty if you did that? Nope.
And juroara, i think you need a therapist.

I am beginning to pick up on two schools of thought here that are subtly different.

#1 - It is OK to do what you want in your lucid dreams because it is not hurting anyone, but you need to be careful just in case your lucid dream is actually transporting you to another astral realm, or the DCs appearing in your dream are real astral beings. In other words, if there are no consequences to your actions, and no penalties, then it is OK.

#2 - You should adhere to your moral code always, whether your conciousness is currently focussed on the waking world or in the lucid world. This is the code you have chosen to live with and as long as you are concious, there are no loopholes. You follow this code wilingly because you believe in it. Thoughts of punishment are not a factor.

The first school of thought is based on a somewhat constrained sense of anarchy and has been adopted by many groups including the Libritarian party. This is also echoed in one of the tennents of Wicca - Do as you will, but hurt no one.
One writing of the apostle Paul seems to point to this as well. In his writings about the old covenant, he taught that all things are allowed to believer, BUT, not all things are profitable.

The second school of thought here, and one I feel requires more from the person that adheres to it, is that you have choosen the moral code you will live by and refuse to deviate from that moral code, whether your conciousness resides in waking or lucid awareness. This is the life I have chosen for myself, to adhere to such a moral code.

May I ask the question though, if something is considered immoral by the tennents of your faith, but hurts no-one, have you violated your moral code if you do this thing while your conciousness resides in the waking awareness?

If you answer that it is a violation of your waking morals then why is it OK to do it when your conciousness resides in the lucid awareness?

One last thought and I will shut up about it. If your moral code says, "I will not rape, murder, or harm anyone in any manner, no matter where my conciousness resides" and you use lucid dreaming as a loophole to get around this moral, then you have committed an immoral act.

If your moral code states, "I will no rape, murder, or harm anyone when I my conciousness resides in the waking realm.", then it is NOT immoral for you to commit these acts when lucid.

I may not agree with your choice of morals, but, once you have defined your moral code, deviating from it constitutes an immoral act on your part,

So, with all that said, how many of you lucid dreamers are violating your morals? I would also kind of like to know everyones age, sex, and where they stand on the issue. It is a proven fact that most peoples moral standards evolve as they age.

Me, 44, male, my morals apply whenever I am consious

Quote:

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Originally posted by kungpow chicken
And juroara, i think you need a therapist.

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you didnt even read my post

that comment is really demeaning to the people I care about who have needed to see a therapist

I will add my point of view.

I think that what people do...whether in dreams or in reality defines who they are. If you want to kill someone then you are a killer.

I cant remember the exact verse but in the bible it says that he who even looks at his neighbour with hate has committed murder. So I tend to think that if i lust/hate/murder in dreams i am not being who i want to be in life in general.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Seeker
I am beginning to pick up on two schools of thought here that are subtly different.

#1 - It is OK to do what you want in your lucid dreams because it is not hurting anyone, but you need to be careful just in case your lucid dream is actually transporting you to another astral realm, or the DCs appearing in your dream are real astral beings. In other words, if there are no consequences to your actions, and no penalties, then it is OK.

#2 - You should adhere to your moral code always, whether your conciousness is currently focussed on the waking world or in the lucid world. This is the code you have chosen to live with and as long as you are concious, there are no loopholes. You follow this code wilingly because you believe in it. Thoughts of punishment are not a factor.

The first school of thought is based on a somewhat constrained sense of anarchy and has been adopted by many groups including the Libritarian party. This is also echoed in one of the tennents of Wicca - Do as you will, but hurt no one.
One writing of the apostle Paul seems to point to this as well. In his writings about the old covenant, he taught that all things are allowed to believer, BUT, not all things are profitable.

The second school of thought here, and one I feel requires more from the person that adheres to it, is that you have choosen the moral code you will live by and refuse to deviate from that moral code, whether your conciousness resides in waking or lucid awareness. This is the life I have chosen for myself, to adhere to such a moral code.

May I ask the question though, if something is considered immoral by the tennents of your faith, but hurts no-one, have you violated your moral code if you do this thing while your conciousness resides in the waking awareness?

If you answer that it is a violation of your waking morals then why is it OK to do it when your conciousness resides in the lucid awareness?

One last thought and I will shut up about it. If your moral code says, "I will not rape, murder, or harm anyone in any manner, no matter where my conciousness resides" and you use lucid dreaming as a loophole to get around this moral, then you have committed an immoral act.

If your moral code states, "I will no rape, murder, or harm anyone when I my conciousness resides in the waking realm.", then it is NOT immoral for you to commit these acts when lucid.

I may not agree with your choice of morals, but, once you have defined your moral code, deviating from it constitutes an immoral act on your part,

So, with all that said, how many of you lucid dreamers are violating your morals? I would also kind of like to know everyones age, sex, and where they stand on the issue. It is a proven fact that most peoples moral standards evolve as they age.

Me, 44, male, my morals apply whenever I am consious

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Seeker, the only reason you have these morals is because you dont want to harm, in any way, a real person, right? Wouldnt it be silly to have strict morals set out for not killing or stealing from a lifesize blow up doll? Well, thats pretty much how it is when you look at a dc and say, "I cant harm him". Society has cast rape and killing in a bad light because it hurts other people, thats where morals evolves from. My point is, I believe in morals just as much as the next person, but the only reason anybody in the world has these morals is because they care about REAL people. And yes, a lot of people would like to do all the aforementioned things if it wasnt hurting anyone, even those who have strict morals set against it in real life. The high selling shooting videogames and murder movies proves that nicely.

I'm 18, male, and i believe you are free to do as you wish in a lucid dream.

I've decided to stay out of this from here on in.

the reason? No matter whats said here no ones gonna suddenly disown their own moral code, as we have seen with juroara, they will just read the posts not looking at what its saying but trying to pick out every flaw that the poster makes.

this thread is pointless other than to state what your morals are, you cant change peoples opinions on this because of many factors:

1) religion (of course doing stuff that's bad in your dreams are wrong if your a christian, we aren't talking about religion we're talking about your personal values)
2) Peoples morals aren't changed easily, its gonna take a whole lot more than a simple post or two stating every logical reason why your post is correct to pursued anyone to follow in your morals
3) people keep bringing up other consciousnesses as being one of the main reasons why we should be moral. The fact is: theres never going to be any way to prove if we're going to other planes when dreaming, and if we were having dreams with other humans they're going to forget them as soon as they wake up.

juroara, you should really think about making your posts free from anger and hate towards the people your posting at. it really shows through when you do this and makes your posts seem really ignorant and blind. like you6 have no real reason why you follow your beliefs you just do because that's what mom taught you

in conclusion this post is only going to cause useless fighting. I'm sure if you all do a search for "morality" you'll find plenty of views on the subject without having to worry about fighting about it

(don't flame me I don't plan to look back at this thread, all it is is a bunch of anger fueled rants at each other)

have fun :|

Quote:

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Originally posted by kungpow chicken


Seeker, the only reason you have these morals is because you dont want to harm, in any way, a real person, right? Wouldnt it be silly to have strict morals set out for not killing or stealing from a lifesize blow up doll? Well, thats pretty much how it is when you look at a dc and say, "I cant harm him". Society has cast rape and killing in a bad light because it hurts other people, thats where morals evolves from. My point is, I believe in morals just as much as the next person, but the only reason anybody in the world has these morals is because they care about REAL people. And yes, a lot of people would like to do all the aforementioned things if it wasnt hurting anyone, even those who have strict morals set against it in real life. The high selling shooting videogames and murder movies proves that nicely.

I'm 18, male, and i believe you are free to do as you wish in a lucid dream.

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PS: dude you used like two of my examples lol :P

Firstly, Seeker, breaking this matter down into two "schools of thought" is pretty artificial. I, myself, don't fit in either of those schools of thought, and I imagine, neither do others here. I understand a good part of the reason for your post is to clear up the debate, clarify things, and prevent a good deal of the anger-fueled debate going on here... and while I think that "schools of thought" can be identified in some issues, and that this is productive, I just don't think that is the case in this debate.

For the purposes of this post, I'm gonna take a freudian approach to demonstrate my point. And, I know a lot of people don't agree with freud, but for the purposes of this debate, I think his ideas are VERY VALUABLE.

The human, under freud's philosophy, has three levels. The "superego", the "ego", and the "id".

The "id" is our most basic desires, our animal instincts, and what operates, largely, at a subconscious level. Our wants, desires, etc.

The "ego" mediates between the id, our unconscious, animal desires, and the reality of the real world. The ego identifies that in some cases, pusuing our own satisfaction and following the id may be harmful for us in the long run.

The "superego" performs a different role. The superego is different from the ego, as the superego serves to regulate our actions through our moral codes, etc. Our superego is formed by the various moral and ethical rulkes that we impose upon ourselve.



So, what is the point of all this? In a dream, the NEED for the EGO disappears. Nothing can hurt us in the long run, and the ege should have no role. (In reality, of course, we often find ourselves regulating our conduct within dreams, but, it is theory I am talking about here, not reality).

So, in a dream, we are left with the id, and the superego. The question then becomes: Should we retain any part of our superego in dreams?

If not, then, there seems no reason why dreams should not become the id's playground, a stage for our subconscious, animal, instinctive desires, our deepest subconscious thoughts, etc.

Myself, I see there to be no reason why we should logically retain the supergo in dreams. In a dream, therefore, there is no reason why we should try to be anything more than just the id.

If we are to do so, we shall fuind that the "id" unleashed varies from person to person. In my opinion, the id is one's core nature. The ego and superego only serve to REPRESS that core nature. For myself, I like to believe that I have a good core nature. I do not, could not, and would not rape anyone, or murder anyone, or hurt someone, in my dreams. Or at least, I would not take pleasure from it. This is NOT because my superego or ego regulates my actions... it is NOT a result of the moral chains I put upon myself. For in a dream, I believe, those chains should be gone.

Rather, it is a result of the fact that my id, my core nature, does not tend towards those actions, and I have no desire, and get no pleasure, from them.

So? My MAIN POINT:

If one is to accept this view, we are left with the following thought:

Humans restrict their actions and suppress their id, their core nature, through use of moral codes and the like. For some people, the id is good, and mostly harmless. For others, it is more dark and dangerous.

We should NOT be talking about the superego and the moral chains we place upon ourselves. We should be talking about the id, that is, we should be talking about why some people WANT to do such things as rape and murder in the first place.

Interesting way to look at it Meanie. I hadn't thought to bring Freud into this, but, isn't it the ultimate goal of mental and spiritual evolution to bring the id, ego, and super ego into harmony? If I am recalling my Frued correctly, all three of these are in constant conflict with each other and it is partly this conflict that brings about mental illness?

I quess I can concede the point that lucid dreaming may help some people bring these into harmonization. Perhaps this is why I seem to be at odds with most of you in this matter, I feel my id, ego, and super ego are pretty much at peace with each other.

BillyBob, you said:

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religion (of course doing stuff that's bad in your dreams are wrong if your a christian, we aren't talking about religion we're talking about your personal values) [/b]

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To me, these are one and the same, my religioin and personal values are one and the same.

kungpow, you said:

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Wouldnt it be silly to have strict morals set out for not killing or stealing from a lifesize blow up doll? Well, thats pretty much how it is when you look at a dc and say, "I cant harm him". [/b]

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In my opinion, the lifesized blowup doll is only a surregate. The anger, emotion and thoughts still remain, all you have done is to redirect it to something that is imaginary. How can anyone feel good about directing such actions against a living being or it's surregate?

billybob, I wasnt even angry at you :shakehead2:

I wasn't forcing morality on anyone, but giving examples how people can not go against their own morality in a dream. this is my understanding of the human mind, not my opinion. I am trying to keep as close as possible to the books here!

seeker, I fit neither in category 1 or 2..how about a number 3?

3. your own moral code doesn't matter in the dreaming, unless you want it to matter. a moral code is shaped by society, laws, government, peers and religion, and of course yourself. And since dream characters aren't real, CAN you do whatever you want in the dreaming? Yes, and technically you can do whatever you want in the waking world too..........But morality still applies in the dreaming in that your morality is reflected by your emotions over your own actions. Not a moral code. Not the action itself. But how you feel about that action.

Do you feel SATISFACTION, do you feel ENJOYMENT, or DISGUST, or ANGER, or GUILT, or NOTHING at all if you ripped apart human flesh in the dreaming, your own or someone elses? Emotions are real. At all times. And your emotions reflect how you FEEL about something. You may be lucid in the dream and even know that Dream Characters aren't real. But your emotions are tied to the subconscious. If you disagree with that, try telling everyone who is clinically depressed or has BPD that they consciously control their emotions.....

We have a lot of names for emotions, but we can easily stuff them into three categories. Postive. Negative. And Neutral.

ok..

still with me?

Whats another word for positive and negative? Good and Bad. Do you feel GOOD or BAD or NEUTRAL when you rip apart human flesh in a dream?

there is a loophole if you do want to shut me up so badly. but to post the loophole you first have to understand what I am saying :mrgreen:

Me, I like killing things. I just like it. Maybe I'm just screwed up. I DO NOT like causing pain to any other living things. In reality, I don't even kill ants, bees, even MOSQUITOES!

But in a dream, nobody is going to be hurt by those. If I kill a DC, will the DC's family be screwed up forever? Maybe, but it's not real and my dreams are too linear to think about the person's family.

I think, that if you kill in a non-lucid dream, and you don't feel guilty, then you must like killing in real life. However, if you will only kill people in lucid dreams, and you don't feel guilty, I don't see what the problem with it is. If you truly do not want to harm any living being or thing, yet what you do is "fun" to you when you don't have to worry about harming anyone else, then do it in a lucid dream.

NOTE: I've never actually killed anything in a dream before. Not even in lucids ones, but thats just because I haven't had enough lucids or control to kill anything (yes, that means if I could I would kill a DC while lucid). It is 3rd on my to do list in lucid dreams (fly, eat candy, kill).

Those were really good points blue meanie, and I agree with them all except one. I dont think it has to be buried deep in your subconscious for you to enjoy these things. I think the reasons are more simple. Like, you like killing in your dream because you "shouldnt" be doing it and you get a rush from it. You enjoy stealing because of the same reasons. Now, if in a dream, you take a dc, rip him open with a knife, watch the blood spill from his veins and get a certain satisfaction from that, then I think you should take a look inside. But if its more simple like going on a shooting rampage, stealing things from stores, with adrenaline flowing through your veins, then I think its harmless and its exactly what lucid dreaming was intended for. Doing things that you cant do in real life, without repercussions or consequences.

kungpow chicken, I agree. "video-game"-esque shootouts, stealing, etc, in dreams, are all just outlets of a desire to do something "naughty", that we couldn't really do in real life. I really don't think, however, that your point comes into conflict with my own, nor do I think there needs to be any disagreement over the point you raised - I agree with it entirely.

The desire to do something "naughty" is just another part of the id, in my opinion. There is a distinction between "naughty" and "nasty", and I think you made it quite well in the example of ripping open a dc, versus a more hartmless video-game-esque killing spree. The former is a more personal, malicious violence, whereas the second is, supposedly, just adrenaline and excitement... the harm caused to other dcs is is sort of irrelevent to the dream, and is not the object, nor the source of satisfaction.

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Originally posted by Shawndow
Woah ..woah..woah............woah. I think we just stepped over the line there. Bringing games into this. So I'm fraggin pwning n00bs, getting a few head shots here and there. But i can tell you with ut-most certainty have no desire to hurt anyone and it is in no form as an outlet except to relax, entertain, and show-off. *

Video games are just the evolved form of jump rope, and unless the kids holding the rope intend on tripping the jumper, it is not an outlet to do something naughty. A bat can be used as an outlet for anger, almost anything tangiable can.

Its clear you don’t game much, and seeing so we’ll let this off with a warning and i'll delete this post once uv read it.

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Actually, I do game quite a bit, but, not fps. Mainly strategy and roleplaying.

But that's pretty much beside the point. The point which I think I'm trying to get across... is, what prevents us from re-enacting video-game type violence in real-life is... well... the obvious. We'd actually being killing people. Which is bad. Right?

Now, what I was TRYING to do with the whole "naughty" thing, was to differentiate more harmless types of dream-action, like video-game type violence, stealing, etc, from the much more up close and malicious types of violence... rape, murder, etc. Now, okay, fine, for a lot of people, the satisfaction gained from video-game, fps-type violence won't be the whole naughty thing, but, just adrenaline, excitement, etc. But still, this is sort of by-the-way. Whether naughty or just exciting, video-game type violence is a WHOLE different thing from rape, murder, etc. That was the point I was trying to make.

wa?

I get rejected by girls in my dream regularly...and yes, I rape them...hahaha. I don't care if i'm in a dream and I wanna have sex i'm gonna have sex. I'm not gonna let a figment of my imagination ruin my fun lol.

Let me break this down. Do you have a choice? Yes, it is a lucid dream. Part of lucid dreaming is giving you the ability to manipulate the dream to your will. That means you have a choice, most of the time. From what I understand the dream sometimes conforms to your will as you become lucid. The question then is, is morality subjective? or dependent of perspective?

I can tell you that that morality is neither subjective nor based on perspective. There is nothing I can tell you that will convince you in such a short space that this is so without getting off topic. So you will have to learn that on your own.

However, consider this. What would you think of a person who does nothing but think of murder all day? You would say that it’s a bit creepy but as long as he doesn’t act on it, why should I care? What if you were that person, what if it was you you were looking on, and found out that your head was full of murderous thoughts? Is that you?

The problem I see with a lot of talk on here is that a lot of people believe that it isn’t immoral or wrong as long as it isn’t hurting other people. But what about the one person it is affecting? Actions can be immoral yes, but immorality is also a state of being. There is such a thing as corruption of the soul.