Sacrificing Lucidity For Memory

My last few dream journal entries have inspired me to make this post.

In short...I'm finding that sometimes at night my lucids are so long...have so many storylines, turns of events, and different dreamscapes that by the time I wake up I've forgotten most of what I saw and did and said.

I've perfected a way for me to remain lucid...so that when I am lucid and it begins to fade, I need only stop and look closely at my hands and examine them in detail. I look at the tiny wrinkles and little hairs...and suddenly when I look up again the lucid has come back with more vividness and realness than even before.

Now, the problem with this...is that I can do it over and over again...many times...extending my lucids for very long periods of time. Whenever I feel it's fading I can bring it back very easily.

The downside is that even while I'm lucid I realize that I am doing so many things and spending so much time being lucid that it will be very hard to remember it. By the time it comes that I actually do wake up...I usually only remember the last several minutes of my lucid and only snipits and vague recollections of the rest of the past few hours that I was lucid.

I guess I'm being greedy. I want to spend as much time as I can at night being lucid. But by morning most of it is forgotten. I could easily wake up after my lucid and remember it clearly...but I choose to force it to continue on.

So then, I ask. What is the point in having accomplished something if you cannot remember it? What proof do we have that we have actually done something other than our own memories?

Should I force myself to wake up after a really amazing lucid so that I can remember it even though that would mean the possibility of sacrificing much more time being lucid.

Well, if you start with the basic recalling techniques, I think you might make your recalling even better. Everytime stuff starts to fade, then wake up. Write down everything and start to dream again. Do it everytime. Someday, you might only need to do it each second time, then each third time, and then suddently, you want need to do that anymore, and your recalling skill will be better than ever, and you can lucid dream as much as you want.

I haven't really tried this, since I've never had an LD myself, but I believe it will work :=)

And aside from that, it's goddamn depressive to have a long lucid dream, but not being able to recall it :lol:

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Originally posted by Aquanina
Should I force myself to wake up after a really amazing lucid so that I can remember it even though that would mean the possibility of sacrificing much more time being lucid?

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NO!

I know a memory technique that may solve your problem. I've never had a lucid dream that long that it's warranted using it in the dream, but it works so unbelievably well in waking life that I don't see why it shouldn't also work in a lucid dream. I'd be very interested to see if it did work!

I can remember LOTS of things, in and out of order. For example, if you ask me what is number 43?[e.g. after I memorised a list of 100 things] I could tell you almost instantaneously. It's done by linking/associating the numbers with pictures. You then link those number-pictures with whatever you want to remember, using visualisation/imagination.

Say I'd already remembered 20 things and I see something else I want to remember [which would be the 21st thing]which happened to be a flying pink elephant. Number 21 is NeT [a mental image of a net - in my system]. So in my mind I link the image of a net with a flying pink elephant. The first thing that comes to mind is imagining catching the elephant in a net. That’s an obvious example. The more surreal, fantastical, exaggerated you make the association in your head, the better you remember it.

So, you have to memorise all the pictures for the numbers first. It sounds like a hassle but it’s not really, it’s quite easy to do because each number corresponds to a letter. The phonetic alphabet is also easy to learn.

1 = T or D (T looks like 1)
2 = N (N looks like 2 on it's side)
3 = M (M looks like 3 on it's side)
4 = R
5 = L
6 = SH or CH
7 = K or hard C (7 looks a bit like K)
8 = V or F or PH (8 looks like F a bit...)
9 = B or P (9 looks like back to front P)
0 = S or Z (sounds like the Z in zero)

Vowels do not count and neither do the consonants W, H or Y. (e.g. mouse = 30, lion = 52)

You can make up your own words using this system. Here is what I use for 1-20:

1 = Tie
2 = Noah
3 = Ma
4 = Rye
5 = Law
6 = SHoe
7 = Cow
8 = iVy
9 = Bee
10 = ToeS

11 = ToT
12 = Tin
13 = ToMb (REMEMBER - its a PHONETIC alphabet - its the SOUND that matters)
14 = TyRe
15 = DoLL
16 = DiSH
17 = TaCK
18 = DoVe
19 = TuB
20 = NoSe

and so on. If the first thing you wanted to remember was....an old woman riding a bicycle, you could picture wearing a bicycle around your neck like a tie, or an old woman riding a bicycle made completely out of ties. Anything but make sure it’s weird, not ordinary.

Then when you wake up you think and imagine a tie...a tie...a tie....aha! the old woman on the bike! and so on. [it just pops into your head after memorising it once only, even days later]

If you don’t follow me or are interested I highly recommend the book called The Memory Book by Harry Lorayne which is only £3.79 or $9.97.

It’s well worth the money and effort to learn this, I think they should teach it in schools! Honestly, show off to someone and they’ll be deadly serious when they ask you if you’re a genius!

Hope this helps, let us know if you try it and it works. (that would be so awesome! :mrgreen: )

I have a couple of suggestions. First, every time you feel the dream fading, why don't you look at your hands, then recall everything you have done in the dream? Then either think of a person, an event, an emotion, something that can let you recall each clip at a later time. Images definately work better than words, I think.

Other than that, how about doing memory exercises? For example, I have a book of Su Doku puzzles, which I would simply stare at. Each time I would solve a space, I would put it in my memory, instead of writing it down. I found that I could solve about 7 of the 9 boxes. My problem was when I would have to consider only what elements are missing from a row/square/column. Then, I would fill everything in and solve it from there.

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Originally posted by Distant Clone
My problem was when I would have to consider only what elements are missing from a row/square/column.

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I'm not sure how Su Doku works but I think I know what you could do. I'll tell you what I do with cards, I think it's the same principle but I might be wrong.

I give someone a pack of cards. They take out and hide as many or as few cards as they want. They give me the pack back. I look through the cards, a second or two per card, putting them face down somewhere, or back in the packet. I can then say exactly which cards were taken out of the pack.

It works similar to my other post. I have a picture for each card already memorised using the same phonectic alphabet method. As I look at each card I mutilate the image in my head. When I've gone through all the cards given back to me I run through the the whole 52 card deck mentally. Whichever card/s are not mutilated are the ones which were taken out.

Could you use the same mutilation method?

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Originally posted by Distant Clone
I have a couple of suggestions. First, every time you feel the dream fading, why don't you look at your hands, then recall everything you have done in the dream? Then either think of a person, an event, an emotion, something that can let you recall each clip at a later time.

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I do do this. ALOT. In my dream. I look at my hands and think about what just happened and promise myself I will remember it. Even while I'm lucid I spend time recalling my dream. But it doesn't work...because by the time I'm ready to wake up I'm having to remember so many things that it all just becomes a huge blur.

I also know that there's a reason why people cannot remember alot of their dreams if they do not write them down immediately afterwards. It has to do with some brain functionality and the processing of memory but I'm not very informed about that.

And I have to be totally honest Jess...about your memory thing. I have no clue what the heck you are talking about. Maybe I'll just have to read the book.

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Originally posted by Aquanina
And I have to be totally honest Jess...about your memory thing. I have no clue what the heck you are talking about. Maybe I'll just have to read the book.

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Oh bolloks. :(

Well I found this in wikipedia which explains it. It's different to my version. Please take my word for it and get the book, or try to make sense of what I wrote :lol: it's so worth it. You seem amazing at lucid dreaming and I think it would be really really useful for you.

EDIT:
[If you don't understand try doing this:
1-Write a list of 10 things
2-Link those things to the corresponding picture (1=a tie) for the number (above)
3-Cover up the list of things you wrote
4-Look at the list above (tie, noah, ma) and and see if you can remember what was number 1 on your list, number 2, and so on, just by thinking of, a tie, noah etc.

Honestly it's simple.

Here's an example:

1-dog
2-swimming pool
3-skateboard
4-baked beans
5-pig
6-house
7-book
8-football
9-shower
10-television

You could imagine the following, but anythings possible, use your imagination:

1 - tie-dog
a dog wearing a tie
wearing a dog as a tie
a dog eating a tie
taking your tie for a walk

2 - noah-swimming pool
noah having a swim
noah's ark in a swimming pool

3 - skateboard-ma
your mum skating
your mum giving birth to a skateboard
your mum IS a skateboard

4 - baked beans-rye
a bottle of whisky full of beans instead
a bottle coming out of a tin (impossibly)
a bottle full of tins of baked beans

5 - pig-law
a pig dressed as a policeman
a pig dressed as a judge
a prison full of pigs

6 - house-shoe
a house made out of shoes
wearing a house on each foot
you open your front door and hundreds of shoes rush out like water

7 - book-cow
reading a cow
a cow reading a book
milking a cow for books

8 -football-ivy
football growing on ivy
a football pitch overgrown with ivy

9 - shower-bee
bees coming out of your shower
a bee having a shower

10 - television-toes
you turn on the tv and lots of toes smash out of the screen
your tv is a big toe
you watch tv on your toes

A - I ask you what is number 6?
B - you think of a shoe
C - house pops into your head, the image you created pops back with hardly any effort

You should use the same image consistently to make it more effective. What I mean is, if you use an image of a policeman for number 5, ALWAYS use an image of a policeman for number 5, don't change it to judge or something. Personally I use an image of a judge.

Is that clearer?

I often have the same problem and the only solution is indeed to wake up at a certain point. Even then I often forget how did I become lucid in the first place.

When I remember that I had a LD but cant recall some or all of it, I think about most common things I do in a LD: was there flying? telekinesis? familiar locations, etc Most of the time I can recall stuff that way.

Good Work, Aquanina!

Yes, it would be nice to remember everything that you have been doing while Lucid; however, the necessary part, that you are continuing to integrate the Waking Consciousness with the Collective Consciousness -- all that is going on rather well. And, as you say, you have the last few Dream Segments there to indicate whether or not the Higher Dream Mind is sending any negative or advisary Signals. As long as the Dreams are ending on a Positive Note, then you can rest assured that even the dreams you are forgetting are all doing quite well.

I'll have to remember to do that Hand Thing more often. I did look at my hands a few Dreams ago and while the Room was bright, when I looked at my hands, they were backed by a starry night blackness, and they glowed with some mild luminosity, and they did not have fingers... well, yes, but not like ordinary fingers. There were 3 fingers. One went straight out. And the other two went off perpendicular to the side... like having 3 thumbs, each being an opposing digit. And they were webbed. And smaller then my usual hands. Doesn't seem quite like myself, does it?

During extended lucid dreams I stop for a minute in them every so often and pretend I'm preping for a history exam. Just as if I were, I start with some vague words that describe the event, and think it over a lot, so that when I recall even the vague memory my mind jumps to specific details.

-Phil

Jess...now that you've described it again it makes sense. I might give it a try actually, and thank you for suggesting it. I just think it would take awhile to learn it well enough to be able to do it successfully while I'm dreaming.

It's funny sometimes when I'm lucid it's like "Oh I just talked to a cool person, I'll have to remember that when I wake up...ooooh look a kitty!....oooh I'm going to go fly away now...la de da...."

Haha...it's like having LD ADD. Easily distracted because there is so much to do and it's easy to forget where you've just been. But I'm going to try harder from now on.

Start off with just 10 things, learn the pictures for them. Practice it while you're awake first. Remember 10 random things throughout your day. At the end of the day see if you can remember them. You only need to see the picture for each thing once, no need to keep refreshing your memory of it. I've never tried doing that, I'll give it a go today and let you know how it goes.

..........Tried it today and it works really well. If the words using the phonetic alphabet don't do it for you (tie, noah etc) then it would probably be quicker and easier to learn rhyming words, gun could represent number 1 etc. The advantage of the alphabet is that there's potentially no limit to it.

Oh yeah and it's good because you can't forget where you left off on the list (am I on number 4 or 5?) because if you try to link the event/thing onto a number you've already used you'll realise and move onto the next one.

Just a thought Nina, how much of you WAKING day to you fully remember? What color was the counter in the Seven-Eleven where you had your coffee this morning? What color car was to the right of you at the redlight this morning? What color socks did the cute guy you oogled at the resturant have on.

I think you are being a little to harsh on yourself here. Just go with the flow and enjoy it, you will remember the truly memorable parts of your LDs long enough to write them in your journal in the morning.

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Originally posted by Seeker
Just a thought Nina, how much of you WAKING day to you fully remember? *What color was the counter in the Seven-Eleven where you had your coffee this morning? *What color car was to the right of you at the redlight this morning? *What color socks did the cute guy you oogled at the resturant have on.

I think you are being a little to harsh on yourself here. *Just go with the flow and enjoy it, you will remember the truly memorable parts of your LDs long enough to write them in your journal in the morning.

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I wish that were true Seekman...but it's not a matter of colored socks or cars. It's the fact that I know I had a truly amazing and perhaps even spiritual experience in my last LD and I cannot remember it. That's what troubles me the most.

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Originally posted by Aquanina

The downside is that even while I'm lucid I realize that I am doing so many things and spending so much time being lucid that it will be very hard to remember it.
Should I force myself to wake up after a really amazing lucid so that I can remember it even though that would mean the possibility of sacrificing much more time being lucid.

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Seems like a nice problem to have :)

Personally I would like to spend more time in lucid state so that it becomes naturalized. I usually wake up after only 2 to 3 minutes, so recall is not the issue. :(

I have read of one LDer who had this problem, she would summon a 'dream remembering device' to help her recall. I'm not sure how stable a technique this is. The first time she tried it she recalled a very long LD. The second time she tried she woke up immediately.

I would probably compromise. If I had an exceptional experience I would wake myself up to record it. Otherwise I'd stay lucid as long as possible.

I'm sure that Aquanina is not agonizing over not being able to remember the trivial details of her dreams -- what flower Satan was wearing in his lapel, or whether the Angel Gabrel wore an emerald in his ring or a sapphire. No, the point is that she is forgetting the entire substance of the Dreams.

Now the one Dreamer that understood the point best was.... a relatively new Poster... wise beyond his or her years, who said that during each Dream Segment he or she will reduce the salient Plot Lines down to just several words which can be committed to memory like a reminder before taking a test. Upon awaking, if just these few words can be remembered, then along comes the rest of the Dream, in sufficient detail to know what the story was about. Screw the small details.

http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic....e+dreams#265970

my suggestion is still something along the lines of:

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i think you're on to something with the compression concept.
perhaps try creating a defining moment in each lucid which ties everything together (compresses it) while still in the dream...

too tird to think of a fitting analogy, but say a white metal sphere can symbolically tie together all the main elements of a disparate sequence of events in a dream

tie the elements together mentally while still in the dream, reach in your pocket and materialize a white metal sphere, and 'attach' the memories to that sign. then recommence the dream.

when you awake, as soon as you remember the sphere, it will hold the compressed memories.
*shrugs* roughly the equivalent of an acrostic, except its a more abstract material symbol. [/b]

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i've only woken myself up once though, in order not to forget a third lucid, and two preceeding it.

usually they are so short i have never needed to test the above idea :| seems as problems go, yours could be worse :wink:

hope you figure something out...

This is a really good topic, I've picked up 3 great things so far: Training your ability to relate events to numbers in order to form a timeline, by jess; practice saying exactly what you did on occasion and rehearse this speech so you remember it, by that one person; the dream remembering device. All three seem like possible tools, and all three seem to give out what you put it in, like Jess' requires memorizing all those relationships, and a little training, the other guy's suggestion is probably less effective as you can forget things in like five minutes sometimes, and requires about as much memorizations or more, and the dream remembering machine... well things don't always work the way you intend them to in a dream.