The Higher Dream Mind

I have talked regarding the Higher Dream Mind so often that it has been referred to, and as you can see from below, I have been asked to address the subject specifically...

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Salutations!

A freind reccomended that I read your topic on the higher dream mind but due to your numerous posts I have being unable to locate it.
Could you please send me a link or a PM detailing the subject.

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Your friend meant that I talk about the Higher Dream Mind all the time, though I do not believe that I ever wrote a specific essay with the Higher Dream Mind as the focal topic.

But now that you've put me on the spot about it... I speak of the Higher Dream Mind as the Goal Oriented and Objective Driven Intelligence behind our dreams. So many people suppose that dreams are entirely arbitrary and accidental. But I have always seen design and purpose behind dreams. This is the Higher Dream Mind. Also, Lucid Dreamers often find that their 'Control' and even their Lucidity is obstructed and frustrated, or in some cases we may even find help are assistance we did not have to ask for. This is also an indication of a Higher Dream Mind.

We can also infer the Higher Dream Mind when we consider our Reoccurring Dreams and the various Dream Motifs. There seems to be an intelligent design in the way these Dreams are presented.

A correllary to my thinking on the Higher Dream Mind is my attitude toward Collective Consciousness. People do not dream uniquely. So many Dream Motifs are common to everybody. So many of the same rules apply to everybody. It would seem that it is not the case where everybody has their own Higher Dream Mind, but that One Higher Dream Mind is serving us all. The Higher Dream Mind is a function of the Collective Consciousness.

Oh Leo why does my higher dream mind hate me?

It seems to let me easily become lucid for only 3 days and then it will prevent me and slightly ruin my recall for another 7.

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Originally Posted by Leo

A correllary to my thinking on the Higher Dream Mind is my attitude toward Collective Consciousness. People do not dream uniquely. So many Dream Motifs are common to everybody. So many of the same rules apply to everybody. It would seem that it is not the case where everybody has their own Higher Dream Mind, but that One Higher Dream Mind is serving us all. The Higher Dream Mind is a function of the Collective Consciousness.
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That Collective Conciousness, isn't that what alot of people interpret as ''that piece of God that is within all of us''?

I indeed see what you mean and I myself have given this subject alot of thought. We have to dream everynight. Dreams are so symbolical and contain such profound strong messages. Like the Dreaming Mind is trying to Communicate with the Concious Mind in it's own Symbolical, Moral Language. I can Imagine if you see this Higher Dreaming Mind as a Collective thing, Instead of an Individual thing. that some religious people will interpret this ''Higher wisdom'behind their Symbolic Message In their Dreams as ''messages from God''. Read the Bible and notice that nearly all ''visions'' that were had by prophets and wisemen were in Dreams. As if the DreamWorld was their Link to The Mysterious Driving power and Reason behind Everything: God.

I have to agree that there are many similairities in our Collective Dreamworlds. All in great lines of the same Symbolical, Confronting, messege carrying and Surreal nature. But that may also be because of how we as people all live somewhat the same in great tines. Allthough the Cultures, Religions and Ethnic Backgrounds and Personal Characters may differ we still do have alot of basic dayly experiences in Common all around the globe:
-School/Learning (We are all Educated by our elders)
-Dining (All Humans seem to have made a true Ritual out of Eating)
-Socialising and Entertainment (We all go ou and have some fun every now and then. Even Eskimos)
-Learning to fend for ourselves.



The list goes on: The things we all need to learn in life to be able to be independant one day, as Nature intended. And allthough different Cultures have different ways of Education, Spirituality, Table Manners, Entertainment..etc The BASICS are teh same. They are present in all Cultures in all people.
That is perhaps the Collective Human Spirit you meant. That may be because it is our Natural, Primitive and instinctive self. Example: Sometimes FEAR isn't Rational, but it's a Response of our Primitive being to stay away from any possible danger to stay alive. Even if it is only a tiny spider that strikes fear in us.

It is a Primitive Instinctive side of us that is Closer to Nature and the driven by Survival Instinct: Something all humans collectively have. Or Individually?


I don't know wether the Dreaming Mind is a Collective spirit or an Individual Spirit we all have seperately.
I do believe in the Higher power that drives us: Life and it's creation. I just don't know if it is the same power as that of the Dreaming Mind. Perhaps that is a different thing completely. I don't know yet.
I'm long from having reached the end of my Spiritual Journey yet. :wink:

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Originally Posted by megabenman

Oh Leo why does my higher dream mind hate me?

It seems to let me easily become lucid for only 3 days and then it will prevent me and slightly ruin my recall for another 7.
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Good question.

Obviously you and your Higher Dream Mind are working at cross purposes.

The assumption of everybody who preaches any Lucid Dreaming Technique is that with the proper technique the Higher Dream Mind can be humiliated and defeated -- that the Individual is ultimately stronger than the Higher Dream Mind. But I don't think so. I think that in any conflict between the Individual and the Higher Dream Mind, that the Higher Dream Mind will win the Day... or rather, the 'night'.

So you need to ask yourself what your objectives and goals have been with your Lucid Dreaming Campaign. Something there is wrong. Now, ordinarily I would expect that the Higher Dream Mind would communicate its objections in the content of Ordinary Dreaming, but so often those interested in Lucid Dreaming entirely ignore the content of their ordinary dreams, not caring to bother to examine them for any significant meaning or messages. But we need to remember that Lucid Dreaming is not to be taken in isolation but it is just a subdivision of Dreaming in its Entirety. All of Dreaming is One Great Process. Lucid Dreaming builds on our Ordinary Dreams, and our Ordinary Dreams will give us clues and messages regarding our Lucid Dreams.

In certain extreme cases our Higher Dream Mind may see the Lucid Dreamer's emphasis on Dream Control as being a direct attack on the ordinary processes and priorities of Ordinary Dreaming. Indeed, for many Lucid Dreamers it actually is their objective to replace the Collective Consciousness with a totally individualized determination of everything that occurs during their Dreaming -- Total Control would be the Victory of the Individual over the Collective Consciousness. In such a case, the Higher Dream Mind would see the Individual as an Enemy.

Now, perhaps some individuals have actually succeeded in defeating the Higher Dream Mind, but they could have done so only by completely cutting themselves off from the Collective Consciousness and their psychic connection with all other souls and with Life in general. Only by isolation and separation can the individual finally cut off the influences of the Higher Dream Mind. I would see that as too high a price to pay for whatever benefits there are in have unobstructed control of one's dreams. And then, once all outside and higher influences have been driven out of our Dreaming, where can anything new or surprising, or even interesting, where can anything of value come from?

So we need to find out how we can go in the same direction as our Dream Higher Mind. The clue here is to think in terms of Collective Consciousness. The Higher Dream Mind is working for the Collective. The Higher Dream Mind is Social, not individual. So our Dreaming goals need to be directed toward collective and social concerns. And this moves us toward Religion and Spirituality. Now, Religion and Spirituality do not need to be as boring as it sounds. Look at it this way -- the Binding Force of Society and Collectivism is Love -- love as a Unifying Force. Now, often young people think of Love in terms of sexual attraction. Well, that is as far as young people can think. Anybody who has been in love, that way of sexual passion, thinks that that is powerful... even overwhelming. Actually not... not in relative terms. The greatest love is that of a parent, particularly of a Mother, for a child. That Binding Force between Mother and Child is the way we can understand Love as the essential binding force of Society and of all Collective Consciousness. Underneath all the Bullshit, this is what Religion and Spirituality is really talking about.

Societies that have gotten in tune with this Love-Force and have established Institutions to maintain and perpetuate this Love and communalism that fosters collectivity -- well, these are Civilizations. But herds of warring individuals who prey on each other and live by predatory attacks on civilizations, these are Barbarians.

How does this relate to lucid dreaming? Well, we can be in resonance with the Dream Higher Mind if we are using Lucidity in order to become more Civilized and less Barbarian. So we should be using our Dreams to find the best Civilized Dream Characters, and to further our Cooperation with these best of all Dream Characters.

But to do so, we muct develop some sense of discernment... we must be able to distinguish between those Characters who are Civilized and those who are Barbarian. It is not always easy. Barbarians can be very likable. Who doesn't love a Rebel? Self Made Men. Rugged Individuals. But they are the Bandits and Predators and Exploiters -- the destroyers of Civilization.

So there is indeed a great deal of Dream Work which must be done to get to where we need to go... if we are to be in agreement and accordance with our Higher Dream Mind.

Are Carlos Castenada books worth consulting about this subject?

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Originally Posted by tiddlywink101

Are Carlos Castenada books worth consulting about this subject?
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NO!

Carlos Castenada is a persona non grata. He had once been a Professor of Anthropology with the University of Southern California, sworn to the Scientific Method and Academic Integrity.

But then, as we all know, he betrayed those trusts by making up a great deal of very bad fiction, and to publish it as though it was Field Research. Well, the processess of Peer Review uncovered the Fraud but not soon enough, as he had already managed to make the World hip deep in his Manifestos of Lies and Pretentions.

So, no. Anybody who honors the Truth cannot be caught dead with a Carlos Castenada Book.

If you write in advocating Castenada or apologizing for Castenada, what can we think but that you TOO are a liar and are out to defraud us all, too.

I find all of this very interesting, and can definitely see this as being one of the intersections between modern psychology and spirituality. Having our dreams continue to socialize us even after we've gone to sleep has huge benefits in the development of a human being. Like many oneironauts, I agree that dreams definitely hold meaning beyond random interpretation of neurons firing and the brain attempting to make significance out of it, but have never heard this phenomenon referred to as "The higher dream mind". I'm currently taking a psychology course, and inevitably the subject of whether or not dreams have meaning will come up. Obviously, people with dream recalls and experiences less regular and vivid than someone like me might take convincing of the fact that dreams are significant to our lives, so I would ask you this. What do you see as specific evidence that dreams are NOT random images constructed from random mental activity during sleep? That they're not arbitrary series of images that we later apply relevance and meaning to through interpretation?

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Originally Posted by John

What do you see as specific evidence that dreams are NOT random images constructed from random mental activity during sleep? That they're not arbitrary series of images that we later apply relevance and meaning to through interpretation?

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The ONLY thing Science is equipped to do is Quantify. Science can count beans. Any evidence you suggest would have to consist in a quantifiable little hill of beans.

But the Higher Dream Mind is all about Quality and Intrinsic Value. It is not quantifiable.

Indeed the only reason we HAVE the Scientific Doctrine stating that Dreams are Random and Arbitrary is because Science could not suggest to itself a Criteria for any Categories of Quality. Basically we are told that Dreams are Arbitrary because Science was not prepared to look closely enough at their Data.

So what Evidence would you want that DREAMS HAVE MEANING in terms of Quality and Value. How could you quantify such a thing?

But ignoring everything we cannot so easily quantify is not the answer either.

And then we need to consider that Science may not be entirely impartial in these regards. Science is primarily a closed rank of Atheists and profoundly committed materialists. Everybody positioned to approve Spending and Grants is utterly committed to the most extreme nilihilistic forms of atheism and solipsistic reductionism. Any hint of the psychic or the collective smacks to them of Religion and Spiritualism which they cover with the pegorative term of Superstition.

And so it is that anybody who wishes to be employed within the Scientific Community must swear on some Sacred Copy of Charles Darwin's "Voyage of the Beagle" that dreams are random, arbitrary and have nothing beyond the most individualistic applications.

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Originally Posted by Leo

So, no. Anybody who honors the Truth cannot be caught dead with a Carlos Castenada Book.


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Hi !

The thing is,nobody knows what the truth is.The whole world is freaking big lie !

Leo , do you know what the truth is ? Can you tell to others too?I really want to know

the truth but i cant find it anywhere?

Well, Leo, I'll give you my bit on dreams and see if you can help me.

Most of my dreams are very wierd and random, usually they have little to nothing to do with what I did during the day, and little detail is paid to the dream quality. I've only had one vivid dream in my entire life, and that was while I was lucid once I managed to increase the vividness to a few notches under realistic. I never have recurring dreams anymore, although when I was 10-12 years old, most of the dreams that I remembered (about 4 a month) involved me being naked in public. When I was about 12, I started becoming lucid throughout these scenarios (before I knew what lucid dreaming was) and I just swore at people who laughed at me. Eventually, these dreams dissapeared when I was 13 from lack of sleep and the fact that since I could get out of the naked nightmares they dissapeared since they weren't scary or worth a thought. When I was 6-8 years old, 90% of my dreams were nightmares.

I pay attention to all my dreams. Since before starting lucid dreaming and keeping a dream journal I've had crap recall, I am happy that I can remember even fragments now, since it's so much better than before. I'm not too dissapointed of a night with no lucidity as long as I can remember fragments or more. I don't look for messages because my dreams are very wierd and vauge so I have no idea what the point of them was.

As for my goals, my original goals were just to fly and be a part of video games (and I still have failed to accomplish those while lucid). My goals now are completing lucid tasks, fly, engage in an all out war against aliens, and have a shared dream with my friends from camp who I only get to see 2 months of the year. I haven't completed any of the my goals yet, except I completled the basic lucid task (eat vegemite) last night.

As for the higher dream mind against me, hell yes. Well, sort of. It's very nice at giving me lucidity. When I first learned of lucid dreaming, the first night it bolwed a zero recall, and the second night it gave me a non lucid dream and my first lucid dream (not including the nude dreams, which are not included in my lucid count of 33). After that it gave me about a lucid a week, and now I'm doing as I said 3-4 every for a period of 3 days followed by a 7 day non lucid period with less recall. It's still pretty good, I mean 33 DILDs since May 26 is a pretty huge accomplishment. As for control, it is 100% evil to me. The first 2 lucids, I tried dream spinning to totally change the scenario, since I was just testing. The first time I got a vauge image of the first thing that came to mind (a bed) and then a FA. The second time I got a beautful forest nighttime scene, and then a loss of lucidity. Since then, I've been trying smaller things, like flying. I still can't get off the ground! On my 19th lucid dream, I finally managed to summon an object, and since then I've also summoned a ferari and a donut in other lucid dreams, but so far that's the most control I've ever had.

Thanks, Leo.

Well I have just bought "The Art Of Dreaming" by Carlos Castenada and while 50% of it is probably bullshit, it is still a very interesting worthwile read

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Originally Posted by tiddlywink101

Well I have just bought "The Art Of Dreaming" by Carlos Castenada and while 50% of it is probably bullshit, it is still a very interesting worthwile read
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There's nothing wrong with reading a book. There could be something wrong with how one interprets a book, but simply picking up a book, any book, and reading it, should never be regarded as a sin by anyone with a genuine interest in the truth. Leo's take that anyone who reads a Castaneda book is a liar puts him hand in hand with fundamentalist book burners.

Actually, after reading a bit more I find a lot of it very implausible; is any of it true?
Oh and soulsearcher don't worry, Leo can seem slightly opinionated at times

I feel im living proof of this. This may seemed farfetched to a lot of people but this is what ive experienced. Recently I moved into a very different environment than what im used to; and havent felt myself lately. Ive been having LDs that are far from my control nightmares almost. It seems under times of stress in your dream world, it reflects on real world. The fewer the things go right in your dream world, to me, seems to have some correlation with stress and fewer things going "your way" in real life. It seems that the subconcious is talking to the concious and this translates into dreams not going in your way. Maybe im looking too deep into this but that day i dreamed of myself throwing up slugs uncontrollably. i knew i was dreaming and i could do nothing to stop it, whatever i did the subconcious seemed to have a hold on me. I was thinking that my subconcious self image felt it was appropriate to express how it felt through this drastic image. Just like you throw up in real life when you get sick, maybe my subconcious is not operating properly thus reflecting on my life and vis versa. dunno lemme know what you guys think

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Originally Posted by Lucid

Hi !

The thing is,nobody knows what the truth is.The whole world is freaking big lie !

Leo , do you know what the truth is ? Can you tell to others too?I really want to know

the truth but i cant find it anywhere?
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You know, that's the same thing Carlos Castenada said. "What is the Truth?"

But you see, we are talking about a Professor of Anthropology. This is not abstract philosophy.

What I heard was that he submitted falsefied notebooks and misrepresented his publications.

Truth at this very basic level means a correspondance to some actual physical reality. and his falsefied notebooks didn't correspond to anything. What, haven't you read any of them? The most retarded imbecile can find sections in those books that are too far over the top even when viewed by the mental combination of faulty judgment and almost total ignorance. It is THAT obvious that it isn't True.

Then there is the worrisome factor of considering the aspects that aren't so obviously false, the sections that ring of truth. Well, who did he rip off?

We are left to consider that what is not absolute false must indeed have been stolen, lifted, plaguarized.

So in buying a Castenada book, we are subjected to the conundrum of not knowing what is reliable information and what is not... since nobody can vouch for its authencity, and if anything proves to be useful, we have to support the guilt of suspecting that the true creative source of that information has been left unrewarded.

It reminds me of certain very famous Singer Songwriters who have not really written a fraction of their copywritten songs, but have made their careers around listening to snippets of other people's original material and then beating them in a race to the copywriters office.

Intellectual and Artistic Vampires.

No, we should not support such people.

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Originally Posted by Lucid

Well I have just bought "The Art Of Dreaming" by Carlos Castenada and while 50% of it is probably bullshit, it is still a very interesting worthwile read
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See!

The next time you Goddamned Atheists insist that you have Morals, refer to this -- in violation to every ethical standard he finds it "a very interesting worthwhile read".

No Morals. No Ethics. Just hedonism and convenience.

I hope you find roasting in hell to be a "very interesting and worthwhile" experience.

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Originally Posted by Lucid

Well, Leo, I'll give you my bit on dreams and see if you can help me.[/b]

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If you read my posts with attention and some degree of respect, then that will help you, as you will find yourself recognizing in your own life and dreams those very things I was doing my best to indicate.

Well.. I've read all of Castaneda and all the anti-diatribes by the so-called intellectuals (who were very quick to champion him at the outset) and although I've never heard of this "Peer Review" journal, if it's written by pseudo-intellectuals I wouldn't give it toilet time..

The thing is with debunkers, they all have one thing in common: they never try any of the techniques delineated by Castaneda, but if they were to, especially the mine of lucid dreaming information, they would change their tune, and would never call him a liar..

...but that's the thing with debunkers: they never actually do anything, they just talk and pontificate..


...and as for the "higher mind" theory, I wish I had a dollar for every two-bit pseudo-intellectual piece of garbage that had been plucked out of someone's backside, that appeared on such forums as this..

I'd have at least two dollars.

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I've never heard of this "Peer Review" journal[/b]

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"Peer Review" is not a journal. Peer review is a basic principle of science. When you do a piece of work, it is subject to review by your peers. Your work must be replicable; other people must be able to produce the same results you produced, by following the same methods you used. This is why scientists, for the most part, trust each other. This is a slow process, sometimes, because it may take a while to fully understand another scientist's methods and results.

It's understandable that you'd be confused by reading Leo's posts. He thinks he confuses people because he's so much smarter than everyone else, but we're really just confused when we read his posts because his Shift Key is Broken.

So this guy debunks Castaneda on the say-so of Castaneda's peers? Those same peers who initially championed him?

...and then shows a quote by a poster here rubbishing the Castaneda book "The Art of Dreaming" as if that is proof corroborating his opinion?

Pathetic.