Disbelief...

One of my friends, when I brought up the subject of lucid dreaming in a conversation, said that it is pseudoscience. Of course, I told him that I had experiencd lucid dreams before that were real. And yet, he claimed that there was no proof that lucid dreaming exists!

He later did some research on lucid dreaming and said that he thought that lucid dreams occur when you are already awake, and they are distinct from lucid dreams. In essence, he said that they were like daydreams or hypnagogic imagery... He also stated that he once had a dream where he knew that he was dreaming, and he then woke up. He claimed that he was probably awake when he knew that he was dreaming.

Obviously, we know that this is not true. But, taking the perspective of a normal person, lucid dreams do seem as though they cannot happen... How can we/I prove to people that lucid dreams do exist, and that they are not pseudoscience, like magic and extrasensory perception (although ESP may very well exist, but it cannot be proven)? I pointed out the tests carried out by "LaBague" or whoever the first scientist to study lucid dreaming was. I also said that statistics show that 1/2 of all American adults reported at least one lucid dream, but he said that many people do not know what lucid dreams are, so this survey may have been based on invalid data, etc.

Lucid dreaming exists they have expensive machines that are only for seeing dreams I saw that T.V. also there are whole academys based on lucid dreaming where they teach it and I know all about day dreaming I do it alot in class but I call it not paying attention and usally if you look up any thing that hints lucid dreaming does not exist you are going get it. ''thank you''

i cna see your friends reason for his skepticism. It is a pretty ctrange concept to grasp. But jsut talk to him(or her). Possibly show him this site. I dont know about those "dream seeing machines", but there are ways to prove that dreamign exists. Ask your friend that why woudlnt it exist? If your mind can make ou see something almost life like yet sometimes extremely bizzare just by firing off some neurons, why not throw in some cognative thought while the brain is at it? One shoudl be skeptic about most things they are told about, but they shuodl not believe in disbelief.


w3rd

Unless you experience it it is almost impossible to understand.
My friend was the same. He must not have discounted it entirely. It was somewhere it the back of his mind because he one night had one.
He actually apologized for his narrow mindedness and we now discuss lucid dreaming in depth.

Your brain wave patterns are completely different when dreaming than they are when you are awake or hypnotized. Laberge was able to prove that while lucid dreaming you are asleep.

Run, don't walk, to your nearest book store and purchase a copy of "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming" by Stephen LaBerge and give it to your friend. There lies within concrete, scientific proof that lucid dreaming is real.

Ah, excellent book though, isn't it?

Don't worry. Who cares if your friend denies the existance of LDs? It's like saying Evolution doesn't exist....It just does... So, if I were you, I wouldn't worry about your friend...He's one of the many people that is angry with not being able to do it, so he denies it's existance.

A few weeks ago, I mentioned my lucid dreaming to my bandmates. These are people who are closer than most of my family and who have known me well for over 25 years.

Lucid dreaming has become a running joke among them now. They are gentle, mind you... but they seem to view the whole thing as another one of those funny little tangents I head off on from time to time. I would have thought musicians would have been more intrigued by the possibilities of lucid dreaming rather than seeing it as a funny weird thing that PJ thinks he does.

That's ok. They have no idea what they are missing though.

Wow, that's incredible. I had no idea it was such a mocked subject. I actually thought it was commonplace and accepted until I read your posts.

Then again it's mostly been a personal thing with me, I never really discussed it outside of close relationships or my family. But I usually date people who have similar views on various subjects and my mother (Bless her soul) will believe anything.

That's really amazing that there are people who flat out don't believe it exists or even make fun of it. That's really odd.

I wouldn't argue with him. As a matter of fact I would agree with him. let him believe it if he wants but you know better.

Tell your friend that he is a pseudoskeptic, to use his own term against him.

How does he explain how one can slip in and out of lucidity all within the context of the same dream? Or how a lucid dream can be surrounded, on both sides, by two non-lucid dreams?

Despite all of the mountains of evidence that lucid dreaming exists (not to even mention the multi-tiered report that CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta did on Sleep and Dreams, in which he explained the reality of lucid dreaming, through mainstream media. Look it up if you wanna.) your friend simply chooses not to believe it.

By his logic, dreams, themselves, are a pseudoscience. They must not exist because there is no empirical evidence of the existence of dreams. How can you have proof of a vision in someone's head? There is none. Only first-hand accounts of having them. Does this mean that everybody that recalls having a dream, including your friend, "doesn't know the human mind" and only thinks they are seeing images in their sleep? Following this train of thought, visual imagination, itself, must not exist, either. I mean, how can we prove that an artist can see a fully detailed rendering of his work, inside of his head? We can't. It must not exist. This is downright ignorant. (not to insult your friend)

Easiest way to convince him? Tell him to read all the blue entries in my journal. :cooler:
And if he still wants to argue, tell him to drop me a PM under your account. :goodjob2:

Heck, who even cares if he is right! It doesn't change the experience does it? I'd enjoy them just as much as ever ^^

Most people I've spoken to think Lucid Dreaming is a bunch of bull. But then they also claim they barely dream. So I can't blame them for not believing LD-ing exists. I'm surrounded by the type who staunchly stick to the idea of seeing is believing. If they haven't seen or experienced it... it basically doesn't exist for them. Which annoys the hell out of me and makes me wonder how it is I came to be so unlike the rest of them.

Anyway, I don't even bother to argue that LD-ing does exist to them. If they think it's bull... I let them think it is. No point in trying beat it into them. But at least they know that if they do experience a LD they at least have me out there to share it with or to point them to further resourses should they want to learn more about it.

That's all I can do on my end in regards to disbelievers. Haha.. If I tried to use Oreironaut's explenation I'd probably lose them at the word psuedoskeptic. :content:

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Originally Posted by Howetzer

Unless you experience it it is almost impossible to understand.
My friend was the same. He must not have discounted it entirely. It was somewhere it the back of his mind because he one night had one.
He actually apologized for his narrow mindedness and we now discuss lucid dreaming in depth.
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Lol. I told him about this exact post on this forum, about your friend, and he just laughed at me.

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Originally Posted by Howetzer

Run, don't walk, to your nearest book store and purchase a copy of "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming" by Stephen LaBerge and give it to your friend. There lies within concrete, scientific proof that lucid dreaming is real.
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Good idea. I'll do that.

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Originally Posted by Howetzer

A few weeks ago, I mentioned my lucid dreaming to my bandmates. These are people who are closer than most of my family and who have known me well for over 25 years.

Lucid dreaming has become a running joke among them now. They are gentle, mind you... but they seem to view the whole thing as another one of those funny little tangents I head off on from time to time. I would have thought musicians would have been more intrigued by the possibilities of lucid dreaming rather than seeing it as a funny weird thing that PJ thinks he does.

That's ok. They have no idea what they are missing though.
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That's kind of what it's like with him.

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Originally Posted by Howetzer

Tell your friend that he is a pseudoskeptic, to use his own term against him.

How does he explain how one can slip in and out of lucidity all within the context of the same dream? Or how a lucid dream can be surrounded, on both sides, by two non-lucid dreams?

Despite all of the mountains of evidence that lucid dreaming exists (not to even mention the multi-tiered report that CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta did on Sleep and Dreams, in which he explained the reality of lucid dreaming, through mainstream media. Look it up if you wanna.) your friend simply chooses not to believe it.

By his logic, dreams, themselves, are a pseudoscience. They must not exist because there is no empirical evidence of the existence of dreams. How can you have proof of a vision in someone's head? There is none. Only first-hand accounts of having them. Does this mean that everybody that recalls having a dream, including your friend, "doesn't know the human mind" and only thinks they are seeing images in their sleep? Following this train of thought, visual imagination, itself, must not exist, either. I mean, how can we prove that an artist can see a fully detailed rendering of his work, inside of his head? We can't. It must not exist. This is downright ignorant. (not to insult your friend)

Easiest way to convince him? Tell him to read all the blue entries in my journal. :cooler:
And if he still wants to argue, tell him to drop me a PM under your account. :goodjob2:
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Nice post and good point... (Sorry, I couldn;t think of anything constructive to add to that.)

Some new developements today! He now says that everyone who has lucid dreams is a liar. :roll:

He also said that the only proof of lucid dreams is subjective, and I told him about the studies, so he stopped talking about the proof.

All the same, he still thinks that I'm kidding or that I'm mistaken when I talk about lucid dreaming...


I'll get some research in my spare time today.

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Originally Posted by Coolv

I'll get some research in my spare time today.
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I wouldn't bother if I were you. I'd just point out, again, that there is scientific evidence for lucid dreaming, and if he doesn't believe you, he needs to take it up with the scientists. He should do his own research if he wants to argue with you. There's no reason for you to prove yourself, you've already cited various sources in conversation that should have made him shut up long enough to go check out your sources if he wanted to. He doesn't want to, however. He wants to keep believing it doesn't exist and forget the whole conversation even happened. I wouldn't bother doing the research unless you wanted to have the sources on hand for your own personal reference.

Heh, give us his email and we'll pelt him with IMs hehehe

Honestly, its not all that far fetched. What is lucid dreaming? Its knowing your dreaming. Everyone has them, wether they know it or not. If he doesnt believe in lucid dreaming, he basically doesnt believe in dreaming at all.

He doesnt believe in dream consciousness? Thats the official term for Lucid Dreaming. A day dream can be qualified as a lucid dream, just not on an in depth level. Just thinking can be qualified that way.

All it is, is realizing your dreaming. Hes probably realized hes dreaming at one point or another. Ask him if hes ever known hes dreaming.

We dream on average 6 times a night, there are scientific studies that show the brain patterns during sleep, and how high they get on the charts during REM sleep. Give him that term, and see if he knows what it means and is. If not, he doesnt even deserve to have time wasted on him trying to be convinced. If he doesnt, tell him to do his research before he starts denying things that he knows nothing about.

There are MOUNTAINS of evidence. Hes just being ignorant. Lucid Dreaming is a very realistic, very simple concept that is scientifically possible and learnable. Its not even all that big a deal if you really think about it. There is nothing Paranormal or Supernatural about it.

I can fully understand his skepticism as well. Before I came to this site, I had had some crazy dreams, and even lucid dreams. I had witnessed some crazy stuff in my dreams. However, before I actually performed supernatural feats in my dreams, I never would of thought it was possible. This all happened within the last 2-3 years as I increased my awareness. Who knows what else we can do, that we would never think possible because people, or science, or the laws of physics, or whatever says we can't do.

I have taught sevral people how to lucid and they have actually been able to have some. Obviously some will not believe in such an odd concept but I find with a little scientific proof MOST (not all) can be convinced.

you could get real good at lucid dreaming have your friend come over take a nap tell him some eye movements youl make like up down up down 10 times or something. then if he looks at your eylids and thier doing that then he may belive. or he'll think you were laying there with your eyes closed

I've given up at trying to convince him that lucid dreaming exists. He's not really comprehending any of my arguments. Now, he's saying that I'm lying when I said that I had a lucid dream. Then, he said that lucid dreams actually happen when you're awake but your eyes are closed.....

The good news is that he has stopped trying to convince me that lucid dreams don't exist... Lol.

I'm not posting his email here before he gives me the go-ahead.

Also, can someone link me to some real studies/papers about lucidity? Thank you.

There are many books on it, but for now, I think this will do some good.

Many sources at the bottom as well.

Tell your friend to read This and to apologize to you for being so ignorant, when he's through.

FYI: Wikipedia has recently received acclaim as being as credible a source for information as the Encyclopedia Britannica. If he can bring you an intelligent argument against what he reads there, I'd love to hear it. :wink:

I really don't expirence any disbeleif. I did a huge presentation, but I kept it subtle, just talking about MILD. EHH..

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Originally Posted by Coolv

One of my friends, when I brought up the subject of lucid dreaming in a conversation, said that it is pseudoscience. Of course, I told him that I had experiencd lucid dreams before that were real. And yet, he claimed that there was no proof that lucid dreaming exists!

He later did some research on lucid dreaming and said that he thought that lucid dreams occur when you are already awake, and they are distinct from lucid dreams. In essence, he said that they were like daydreams or hypnagogic imagery... He also stated that he once had a dream where he knew that he was dreaming, and he then woke up. He claimed that he was probably awake when he knew that he was dreaming.

Obviously, we know that this is not true. But, taking the perspective of a normal person, lucid dreams do seem as though they cannot happen... How can we/I prove to people that lucid dreams do exist, and that they are not pseudoscience, like magic and extrasensory perception (although ESP may very well exist, but it cannot be proven)? I pointed out the tests carried out by "LaBague" or whoever the first scientist to study lucid dreaming was. I also said that statistics show that 1/2 of all American adults reported at least one lucid dream, but he said that many people do not know what lucid dreams are, so this survey may have been based on invalid data, etc.
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Well, I had the same exact problem as you with my friend. Basically, he claimed that I was making it all up and that it was impossible or it never happened. He speaks out of mere ignorance.

He is a very close-minded person and does not like to be wrong at all. Like your friend, he said there is no way of proving it is possible, but you can flip it around and say there is no way in proving that it is false. Of course, that will never be good enough of an explanation for someone with a personality like my friends, but it makes me feel better.

I offered to him that he just try and do reality checks regularly for at most three weeks and if he didn't notice any progress he could accept that lucid dreaming was, indeed, fake. I guess I sounded a little too convincing because he refuse to do it (obviously to avoid being proven wrong).

I would say that your friend is probably jealous about your ability to lucid dream, a feat he has yet to achieve. Chances are, he's trying to attain lucidity behind your back so you don't say things like:

"I told you so" or "I was right, wasn't I?"

(I'm assuming your friend, is somewhat like mine)

It's a well know fact with the people I work with that I am a lucid dreamer and I'm sure I get talked about behind my back. It saddens me that people walk away from such a wonderful experience. :cry:

Your friend seems to be one of those pseudointelectuals who think they know everything, and they try to raise their self esteem by trying to change other peoples minds whit their stupid arguments


He is trying to convince you that lucid dreams does not exists to prove that he is capable of changing yur mind with his ideas.

How stupid a guy needs to be to actually experience a lucid dream and then say that it wasnt real.

And even if he said that LD occur when you are awake, he is already acepting the fact that something exist.

Of course you are awake in a LD!!!, your body isn´t but your mind is awake.

A friend of mine also said that a LD is imposble, with his theory of saying that you dream that you are controling your dream, but you aren´t actually controling it

How stupid is that!?



But anyways people like that are always out there trying to spoil our fun, so don´t worry dude, if they don´t want to believe is their problem, they need to opn their minds and read more.

If your friend would actually call you a liar without taking the time to look at all the research that proves lucid dreaming is possible, then he doesn't sound like a very good friend. If it were me, I would tell him that he's a jerk and that I have no desire to be friends with someone who would call me a liar. It's a total waste of time trying to convince him that you're telling him the truth. He's obviously one of those people that refuses to be proven wrong on anything.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

FYI: Wikipedia has recently received acclaim as being as credible a source for information as the Encyclopedia Britannica. If he can bring you an intelligent argument against what he reads there, I'd love to hear it. :wink:
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Lol I need evidence to show to my uni! They're illogically paranoid about it ;P

Yeah, he's really stupid sometimes. :) Especially when someone tries to prove him wrong. Most of the time, he's okay.

Hmm... It's almost like me, I always want to disprove others, sometimes with reasons (of course this usually works) sometimes I just say just becouse (and then I think why did I want to disprove something wich is right?) , and then laugh a bit and say that ok, he is right. :P:P:P

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Originally Posted by Wolffe

Lol I need evidence to show to my uni! They're illogically paranoid about it ;P
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I heard it in a CNN story. I tried googling for the transcript, but haven't been able to find it. Here are some academic studies on wiki and works citing them as sources, (and surrounding links) if that helps at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wik...academic_source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wik...cademic_studies