Random thoughts...

I have been thinking...mostly negative aspects of some people who are invovled in lucid dreaming...i will post a few here, and if i remember any more in the next few day or weeks i will post them.


Soft disclaimer: these are my opinions. if you disagree, do what you do best, and try not to cut me down. :goodjob2:

The power of the subconcious mind vs. the concious mind-
The concious is the ruler of waking life, whereas the subconcious sits on the throne of the sleeping life. When the concious invades the subconcious worlds and awakens (BY WAY OF LUCID DREAMING), the subconcious is somewhat confused, and tries to trick the concious...to fall 'back to sleep'. This is why certain things happen in dreams where we are so close to lucidity, and tricks get played on us...etc...i think that there is a constant battle between the concious and subconcious...and people that have a balance, 'become' the best people that they can be.

Levels of lucidity-
Certain people bost about certain levels of lucidity they can or have reached. Some people talk about HIGHER LEVELS, about controlling everything and everyone...deciding the fate of the universe. There is no way of knowing of what these people are saying is true or not. We cannot project their dreams on a screen, because we don't have that kind of technology and that is highly unethical. Lower levels of lucidity include controlling some of the dream to a small extent...as i was thinking, does this REALLY exist? OR when we wake up do we just fill in the HOLES and through the power of SUGESTION-through our SUBCONCIOUS mind 'tell' us that we had some control? or that we had some part to play?
Now...what is control to put it in reality? How do we REALLY know how much control we had unless we actively know in the dream that we did...i really think that when we wake up, if we can barely remember what happened the night before, that our subconcious fills in holes for us.


(trying to think of more thoughts...)


Natural Lucid Dreamers...or people that 'have tons of lucid dreams'
We cannot tell if these 'natural' lucid dreamers even exist...just from conversations from them. i don't know many people on this site...so i don't 'realistically' trust most of you...some of you i do. Now, i can say that there are some people on this site that bost so much about their accomplisments...and i think some people are full of shit. Others i trust, but some people talk like they know everything and can't really show for it...none of us can. But it is evident that some people are full of it. I know a couple of you really do have intersting inspiring, REAL lucid dreams...but i think some people just love the second hand attention through a 'story' they create...AHH! i sound like i'm comming up with a conspiracy theory...sorry.


The Dream world
Some people say that the dream world is another place in 'space', that it is a different play, that it is a different WORLD. I just think it is there for us to enjoy...just like space...there are no aliens...there are no Martians...SPACE is there for us to enjoy...NATURE(whats left of it) was created for us to enjoy...just like the dream world. We are MEANT to have lucid dreams and explore the world of the subconcious. I don't deny that certain people can reach different levels in the dream world... but i only think it is is the world of the SUBCONCIOUS, and in the waking life, we explore the CONCIOUS WORLD...in dreams, we merely walk the subconcious world.
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That is all for now...remember...these are just opinions.


:goodjob2:
-matt

Well I agree with you on your first view. There is a constant battle between our concious and subconcious. With lucidity occuring when the concious successfully takes reign in the subconcious world to an extent.

For the comment on your second point. I think we'll never know. How do we know that the level of self-deception by our subconcious is so great that we believe that we are in control during lucid dreams when all along the subconcious had it planned out? How do we know if the subconcious isn't just filling out all the choices we think our conscious mind makes during lucid dreams?

For the third area regarding natural and elite lucid dreamers. I agree that there are people out there that are full of crap and lie to get the attention they seek. But I guess there is still a bit of inherent trust between the members of this community that most of the things we share are true. People still have consciences, no matter who they are.

Lastly, I personally don't believe in the dream world, but I'm open for the day that proof is shown to me of such an existing place. It would definitely be cool if the dream world was actually a real separate plane of existence then real life, but the concept in of itself is a bit farfetched for me to swallow directly.

1. The dream world is, to a great extent, uncharted territory for all sciences. I believe that there is a conflict in bringing you consciousness into the dream world. You could say it is unnatural, it goes against the natural order of thing(which doesn't make it wrong, of course).

What the subconscious is trying to do is preserve things as they should be. It tried to make us believe that it is real and not just a fabrication of our mind. This is what happens when you are lucid and then just loose this state.

However, when it is a normal dream most of the times your mind is not awake enough to be conscious of the fact that its a dream. It isn't the subconscious tricking you, in my opinion, it is just that the dream world is the world of the unconscious and in it your dream self plays out all of its fantasies, fantasies that are not meant for the conscious mind to know.

2. I don't believe that the subconscious has anything to do with that. When you are lucid, at a high lucidity level, it is as if you are awake in the dreamworld. Also, you can tell how much power you have while you are in there. I have personally never had any LD where I could control everything. But, with the limited control I have, I could tell that what I was able to change or conjure was in fact due to my lucidity.

Dreams are not only in the past, in the recall. They are also in the present and when lucid enough there should be no reason not to remember it as you remember the waking life.

3. On this matter there is actually no way of proving if the person is saying the truth, but I would like to be able to believe at least some of them. I know people here probably worst than you(you've been here much longer) but I have no reason to distrust what they say. I know that I personally have about 3 LD's per week, whether you believe it or not, and have nothing to gain from lying to you guys.

4. As I said before the dream world is uncharted territory, mostly when it comes to such an intricate subject as this one. I believe that most of the times it is a fabrication of the unconscious mind, but I do not rule out the posibility that sometimes we might enter something deeper than that. I believe that we might all be somehow mentally connected with each other and with the world itself. Maybe it is part of a collective unconscious, but it is posible to enter it through a spiritual plane, such as meditation or LD's. I just do not rule out the posibility that sometimes when we become lucid we might somehow tap into it, connect to this intelectual and spiritual web that connects us all.

Hope this is what you were looking for Lowercase...

P.S. Don't be so easy to dismiss the fact that there is no other form of life out there...it is highly unprobable and very presumptious to say that there isn't.

/em is full of it

I think you are right on the first one. It seems like my dreams are always trying to fool me. Then every time I find away around it, it comes up with a new way to trick me! I don't think its confused when it sees you though, I think it knows what its doing. Which makes sense since its really you, it knows everything you do.

I think there are different levels of lucidity, but I judge them different. I don't count how much control you have but how vivid it is. The more life like and clear you remeber the higher you are. You can get that high with normal dreams, which is why some people think they might of been lucid even though they didnt have much control or weren't really thinking.

I think the ones who are around for like months are telling the truth, and ones who only posting for a few weeks might be lieing. I don't think it really matters in the end though because I doubt they get much attention from it. Also I think some times a person posts a nice dream, and it might sound better than it really is, though the person isn't trying to make it sound better. Dreams seems a lot better and make more sense when you write them out than just thinking about them in your head.

As for another world, I don't really believe any of that stuff, but I respect the people who do. I think its kind of fun to talk about it though even if you don't believe in it, since you can learn a lot of stuff and doesn't hurt any to have an open mind. Its kind of like with ghosts or something, you think "yea right I don't believe in that crazy stuff" but at the same time you think "hmm well I doubt it but you never know...". Most likely nothing to it but some times it seems like it could explain things.

to a certain extent we arnt in control, the sub-con carries out alot of tasks for us everyday

do we really make some of the choices in life?

Italian Guy: You know what, Maria?
Maria: Yes?
Italian Guy: You think too much.

1- Not much to say about that one, I dont believe its just the mind that decides what happens out there..unless you are..nevermind =P Nobody feels like hearing my crap ayway

2- Control sucks usually, super lucidity my ass, so much more out there that can be reached by not controlling, people need to start thinking..do they really think they are in control? (LOL thats all I have to say about it)

3- There are some out here, and I believe some out here and I wont even say any names..because it doesnt matter, everybody here is equal on that aspect, being a natural lucid dreamer doesnt make you a better person in my eyes..and well, for the people that do have natural talents they know they do, and I hope they use it well..I use whatever talent I posses as respectful as possible, and people who dont and say they do..well let them have their fun ^_^

4- The astral plane is real, end. In my eyes. If its not I dont think life will be that nice to me anymore.(I have my reasons and there are probally 4-5 persons in this forum who know) This might sound extreme, but besides personal reasons..its like a pure true christian that gets told with a 100% certainty that God doesnt exist..I still think the astral plane will never be real for those who dont beleive..and it will for those who truely do..as it with many things, faith is one of the important keys. Thats why I think there is no absolute truth on religion and spirituality.

Thats my little thingie..opinion =P ^_^

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Originally posted by Lowercase Society
Now, i can say that there are some people on this site that bost so much about their accomplisments...and i think some people are full of shit.

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I hope I didn't make that list... :|

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Soft disclaimer: these are my opinions. if you disagree, do what you do best, and try not to cut me down[/b]

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You have good opinions there and I wont try and debate them with you, everyone having their own opinions and all that. :)

Loftus and Palmer in 1974

These two girls were working in Cognitive Psychology. They took a huge sample of people and showed them a video of a car accident. Then afterwords, they interviewed each candidate. They all had COMPLETELY different opinions on every question asked such as FOR EXAMPLE:
>What speed (approximately) was the red car going?
>What speed (approximately) was the white car going?
>Who was at fault?
>Were any other cars involved?
etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

Now there were, i think several questions asked about say BROKEN GLASS, and if they candidate saw it. Well there was in fact NO BROKEN GLASS, but the candidates, EVERY one of them, said they saw it.

There is more to this study, and you can look it up, but basically the researchers stated that people reconstruct MEMORY. Our brains, perhaps our subconcious, but mostly our concious reconstruct memories that are not true.

Applied to dreaming: When we wake up in the morning and can't remember all of our dreams, but fragments, we ALL reconstruct memories, even subconsiously for various reasons...


.......mutter off.......

Since dreams are all mad up in your head anyway, if your memory reconstruct parts of it does it matter? Personlly I say any memory you remeber from a dream is a part of the dream, if it real or not.

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Originally posted by Alric
Since dreams are all mad up in your head anyway, if your memory reconstruct parts of it does it matter? Personlly I say any memory you remeber from a dream is a part of the dream, if it real or not.

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Good point! :P

But if they are merely reconstructions, and we make them up, then where is the 'truth'. I know it sounds all cheesy...but i don't feel that comfortable when i know i am reconstructing something...almost feels FAKE.

You ever get them dreams where you know who someone is, even though you may not have any idea how they really look and they never say who they are? Isn't that your mind just filling in the space? There is no way you can tell from the dream who it is, so it must be a fake memory. I would consider it a part of the dream though.

er...i dunno how this is going to relate to LUCID DREAMING, but in another thread i was talking about it.

The only thing that people desire to do, even thought the masses participate in it is SEX.
Think about it: trends, fashion, etc all go in cycles, and not that many people really want to be the absolute SAME as everyone else...in life in general. But with sex...everyone does it because you can't get away from it. I mean the PUNKS from the typical fashion, trends, and 'fads'.

In lucid dreaming, not many people do it, or even frickin' KNOW about it...its sad. Personally, i don't think many people could handle it.

Hey lowercase... I agree with all your points except for 2 little things...

1) Your subconscious is partly in control of your everyday waking life - why not the conscious a little of dreams. I agree that they are constantly fighting for control in LD's - I've noticed that distinctly...

2) They have proven by experimentation that LDers actually control their dreams while dreaming - not reconstructing after waking. How did they figure this out? They found some lucid dreamers, then told them to move their eyes in particular ways in response to light. Remember in REM sleep we still have control of our eyeballs. Obviously the LDers learned how to control their eyes while dreaming first. They passed with flying colours apparently. Moving their eyes wherever the researchers wanted.

My opinions... use it .. dont... they're all like a*holes anyway. everyone has one and they all stink somewhat.

We might reconstruct some details but the main idea does not change. It is the same thing in the waking world as in the dream one. Since they are all experiences that we have lived(in one plane or another) then we should be able to recall lucid dreams as we recall waking life. I don't think we would reconstuct it completely differently from what actually happened, and we never really had control except we thought we did.

I know this is pretty much useless info, for Placebo pretty much prooved this point. I just thought it needed to be said anyway, as a way to support this statement.

Great thread man! :goodjob2:

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Originally posted by Truthbearer


Great thread man! :goodjob2:

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haha...just some contemplations...i think i think too much :P

Don't we all...

But that's a good thing...right?

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Originally posted by Truthbearer
Don't we all...

But that's a good thing...right?

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I'm sure it is...well i'm too tired to expand.

I meant it to be one of those questions to reflect about...that leave you thinking and have a ironic sort fo attitude...too bad one can't convey that sort of thing with text, lacking tone...

Oh well...you can't always be the clever guy...

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Originally posted by Truthbearer


Oh well...you can't always be the clever guy...

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oh...yeah? :-P

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Originally posted by Lowercase Society+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lowercase Society)</div>

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but i don't feel that comfortable when i know i am reconstructing something...almost feels FAKE.[/b]

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Iraq. :D

<!--QuoteBegin-Placebo
They have proven by experimentation that LDers actually control their dreams while dreaming - not reconstructing after waking. How did they figure this out? They found some lucid dreamers, then told them to move their eyes in particular ways in response to light. Remember in REM sleep we still have control of our eyeballs. Obviously the LDers learned how to control their eyes while dreaming first. They passed with flying colours apparently. Moving their eyes wherever the researchers wanted.

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I remember now about hearing that a while ago. :P Scratch my theory then.

[quote]

deos anybody else find this statement ironic? =p

Just as ironic as you messing up the quote...

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Originally posted by Truthbearer
Just as ironic as you messing up the quote...

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thank you.

no problem, I love making people look bad when they are trying to make others look bad :P