Entering an LD right before bed; Possible?

After reading Sythix posts to help induce trance/wild/increase HI it occured to me.


As to my knowledge we dream during REM periods of sleep. These periods usually last 60-90 minutes, and occur 2-3+ times per night of sleep (If sleep patterns are normal, 8 hours yadda yadda)

I am also under the impression that REM will only usually occur after roughly 3-6 hours of sleep. (Unless you missed a previous REM cycle the night before this can be affected)

So my question(s) are:

Is it possible to enter a dream, let alone an LD at your first attempt to going to bed?

Or is it a proven fact you must wait untill a REM period?

Hey, i wish i could help you with this, i've been wondering the same, it would be good to do this, could someone please post an answer to this question, i want to know if its possible aswell?

I've heard people doing this, but I have not had any luck with it myself.
I have gotten to SP with out doing the waking up 5 hours later thing.
I didn't see any HI though. I guess it would be possible enter a wild without dreaming, and being concious while sleeping until you start dreaming. If your interested in trying that.

All of your numbers about when and how often REM periods happen are correct. Also, the fact remains that it is impossible to have a lucid dream outside of a REM period. But we can look at the fact that when REM periods happen are subjective. Your brain can be trained to fall into REM sleep faster than 3-6 hours. Also, you can fall into REM sleep quicker if you have woken up recently from a nap or from a long night of rest. Basically, the longer you wait before sleeping again, the longer it will take to fall into REM sleep.

So, to answer you question. Yes, it is possible to fall right into a lucid dream; however, it is very difficult and would not happen to a normal person on a normal sleep schedule at their normal time of going to bed.

I have had many Lucid dreams within the first hour of sleeping.
Sometime's some pretty powerful one's.
Sometime's I only sleep three to four hours, and I can recall
many very crazy dream's in this period.

I think I remember reading in exploring the world of lucid
dreaming, that you can dream in other sleep periods.
It's just that, most people only remember stuff from REM
period's.

I could be wrong, but I seem to be able to remember a lot
of dream's durring time's I should not be able to.

Muvhaels response seems mostly correct, except Caradon brings up an interesting point as I have also learned in multiple Psych classes that it is possible to still dream will in the first stages of sleep (delta+)...however I heard that they are usually nightmares, as for the exact reason I'm not sure. But this does present the fact of being able to dream period in a stage outside of REM.

However I coulnd't solidly prove this.

Oh well....stick to the basics I suppose

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alprazolam

Muvhaels response seems mostly correct, except Caradon brings up an interesting point as I have also learned in multiple Psych classes that it is possible to still dream will in the first stages of sleep (delta+)...however I heard that they are usually nightmares, as for the exact reason I'm not sure. But this does present the fact of being able to dream period in a stage outside of REM.

However I coulnd't solidly prove this.

Oh well....stick to the basics I suppose

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Hmm, do we know anything about the vividness of delta-stage dreams? Also, is there any proof that a lucid dream has to be during a REM dream? I'm not too sure about these. Lots of interesting points here. Keep 'em coming.

The different sleep phases repeat every 90 minutes, and include one REM period (which is short at the middle of the night, and long at the end), so the first REM period should occur after 80 minutes of sleep, not 3 hours.
My initial training at dream recall, when I set my alarm every 1h30 of the night, confirm it ;)

As for LDs : According to my logs, I had one (very short) DILD at least once on the first REM period after 1hour;
I also succeeded to have a WILD right at the begining of the night, two days ago. I went to bed near 10pm, listened to some dream induction and other relaxing mp3 for 2 hours til midnight while not moving at all (but I did not have SP). 15 minutes after I stopped the mp3, I entered a WILD. But like Alprazolam heard, it was a sort of nightmare: absolutely no image, my dream body floating/moving uncontrollably, and a deep, menacing voice mumbling threats to me. I kept calm until "it" jumped on me and I awoke (In fact where I felt 'it' attacked my body, was where my hands were resting on my belly)

Conclusions: I think it is possible (but hard) to enter a LD / WILD in REM right at the beginning of the night, if you somehow "simulate" the preceding delta sleep phases in meditation/relaxation. But the first REM periods seem to be low-quality and short, and don't lead to good LDs.

Interesting points...

My own experience seems to contradict the sleep stages theory - I've had 'normal' dreams and LDs right at the start of the night. Chaining LDs seems to contradict the theory too. Also when I put my alarm on 'snooze' - I can have a dozen six-minute dreams, before I'm too awake to sleep anymore. It would be ineterseting to try this at different points through the night.

WILDs may give us some insight - you can WILD at any time of the day or night.

I'd like to know more about what state the brain is in during WILDs/ first thing at night LDs, DILDs, and chained LDs/ dreams. Anyone know where I can get a cheap brainwave monitor? I don't even know what they are called - the thying that measures alpha/delta waves etc... Tried googling but no luck yet...

if i understand correctly, you must be during a REM cycle (i.e. be dreaming) to have a lucid dream. normally, the first few hours of sleep are dreamless.
how ever, i once went to sleep very early after not getting much sleep the few days before it, and then after a few hours when to sleep again in my normal hour. i then had my best lucid dream ever

Hmm... I tought that you can only dream while being in REM sleep. Maybe you can have dreams and LD-s at the beginning of night becasue you intentionally want to have them. I dont think that it would contradict the theory of sleep cycles.

many people who believe in OOBEs/ Astral Projection claim that you can enter such a state directly from waking conciousness

Makes for an interesting thread....

I'll try and do some hard fact research for a while and get back to this thread-

Untill then I suggest we all keep bouncing experiences and ideas off of eachother.



** I had a bit of personal experience last night. I tried to WILD at the beginning of the night last night. It didn't really work. I could get almost NO images to "float bye"

However I tried to WILD again in the morning after waking from a dream, and could see vivid imagery (Although I failed, you can see the distinct difference)


However, there seems to be quite a few people that claim to be able to LD right off the start of a night.


Hmmmmmm

I don't really know if this helps or even answers your question but about a week ago I had an LD while I was still awake. I suppose this was helped by the fact that I had just come down from MDMA, (although I've never heard of anything like that happening from it) and with the full mental awareness and openness it brought I thought I would try a WILD.

So I closed my eyes and strangely enough, psychedelic patterns started to immerge, and after a while they merged into objects, places, vehicles of sorts, etc. After a bit of this I could feel myself getting "pulled" into the dream.

I knew I was awake because after each scene I could open my eyes briefly and I would be back in my room, I'd shut them again and be in a different place, as a different person. Only thing though, was that I wasn't fully into the dream. When I tried to talk in the dream it sounded muffled and far away, coming from the waking realm and at times when my eyes were closed in the dream and opened them too fast I would just be in my room again.

Well I hope this helps you with that question :-P

I'm convinced dreaming can occur throughout nearly every stage of sleep. This REM balony just arose because it's the only time scientists could be sure something was happening during sleep. Perhaps the REM stage is just more intense and easier to remember?

I have been aware of my hypnagogic stage recently, the very first stage of sleep, and if I don't wake myself from these, they ALWAYS lead to normal dreaming, and from my experience, they continue consistantly throughout the night.