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I haven't had an LD yet, but I have had SP and the vibrations associated with it. I was just wondering if anyone has become aware while sleeping and had an interest in communicating with God?
Was it what you thought it would be like?
Were you able to do it?
Do you think it was real or just a vivid imagination?
Was it life changing?
Well, i haven't had a controlled dream yet, and i don't think i'd even want to talk to God in a dream -- the experience alone would be frightening, exciting, and all that good stuff. Plus you'd probably wake up from excitement.
I'd guess that talking to God in an LD would just be like talking to a disembodied voice of your own thoughts and beliefs. You may learn things about yourself from your subconscious, but it'll all be based on you, not an omnipotent being that speaks all truth. So i dunno, speaking to God in an LD might even be a little disappointing :-\
Thanks, very interesting idea.
Is there anyway that you could tell if you were talking to an omnipotent being or just your subconscious? Both would know everything about you. Both could communicate through a dream.
Is there anyway to tell the difference?
Some parts of the Bible talk about God communicating through dreams and dream symbolism. Was it just the dreamer's over active imagination or actual communication with a higher being?
How can you tell?
What test could you do to find out?
Has anyone on these boards trying communicating with God while in a lucid dream?
I wouldn't say there's a "test" in order to find out if you're talking to God. You'll probably just know when it happens. Of course comes the problem of believing your subconscious is acting as God, so you'll know, but you won't really know...do you get what i mean? lol. I'd say God wouldn't just talk with anyone; throughout the history of religions God has only talked to people important in conveying his message.
As for dream symbolism, you'll just have to go with your own faith. Don't ask yourself "did God put this here?" Instead, ask "why am i dreaming this?" and if you think it's important enough, just trust God is working in some mysterious way. If not, then your subconscious is trying to tell you something; either way, it's important.
Just remember: if you do believe God is talking to you through your dreams (whether it be an omnipotent being or your own mind), you may not like what you hear or see. Often the belief of God is associated with fear -- religions are essentially based upon not going to hell, the most fearful thing, and the fear of hell/disobeying God drives us to be good and follow our religions.
Eh, what i'm trying to say is...hmmm...there's no way of saying this without sounding cliche, but oh well. Trust your heart!
I once met and mighty being of Godly powers, and I countered it with alike powers. The dreams was not lucid during the fight, but a bit later, I became lucid. I was in complete control of myself though, so I could make portals, throw things at him with telekinesis and other stuff.
Hmm... I don't think I've ever had a LD about God, but I've had one that I was God.
I don't think it would be that interesting since it's basically your head that is creating the "God" character and it would be like talking to your inner self.
I've had only one dream with religious tones. It's not in my DV journal, because my computer went dead shortly before I had it. In a lucid, I was once searching for this dream character I met in a previous lucid dream named Koran (Islamic Bible), and was going to ask him if he was my real dream guide (I've had five dream character candidates for dream guide). As I followed him to some house, he told me he was not Koran after all, and morphed before my eyes. By now, we were already in a building--a smokeless bar. He ordered a pizza, and we began talking (eventually the pizza came). I asked him who he was, if he wasn't Koran. He said he was "the man born from the raw fruit tree." I thought that meant Adam. As soon as I thought that, he nodded. I asked him why he came. I asked if we live in dreams after death. He swallowed his bite of pizza, and said "Huh?", so I repeated the question. I woke up...
I don't think much of it. I want to believe our consciousness goes somewhere after death, but I don't accept this dream as hardcore evidence. Still, it was a very cool dream.
I did. I knew it was really god because of faith! God was exactly how I imagined he would be!
Whoa, that's an amazing coincidence. The odds against that must really, really big.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
teehee!Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
Personally, I would not advise using Lucid Dreams for religious/spiritual purposes. They are, by definition, a subjective world created by the dreaming mind. What one is after in seeking God is not a subjective experience that feels like God, but Objective Truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by hapkidoman
Furthermore, it seems to me that actively trying to use LDs to seek the Divine is a bit like divination or fortune telling. You might come in contact with unsavory supernatural forces. Then again, maybe not. It could just be purely mental, but I would rather not risk it myself.
That is not to say that God might communicate to you in a dream, but I wouldn't try to use LDing as a tool to reach the Divine. It would be better just to pray, in my opinion. If God wishes to communicate via a dream, then let Him do so.
The only way to test something like that would be to examine it in light of Revealed Truth. Even then, though, I don't think there is a way to prove that the experience comes from God.
-Lux
...or praying...Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxAeterna
I looked in a mirror. Does that count?
Perhaps a distinction is in order.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
What I was trying to get at when I made that you quoted is that there seems to me to be the danger of an LD being viewed in the spiritual context in the same way as divination or fortune telling. That is, as an aqcuired skill that gives us special, secret power to contact the divine by our own ability.
Man, and I am speaking throughout from my Catholic perspective--man is not capable of reaching God of his own power. To try to use LDing to reach God is different from prayer because in prayer we kneel, and God comes down to us and communicates to us. When we use these other methods to reach God, it strikes me as us trying to reach up to him.
How can a speck of its own power reach up and touch what is infinitely greater and higher than that speck? To presume to do so seems to suggest--to my mind--a kind of spiritual pride.
Again, this is not to say that God cannot reach us in dreams, but just that we shouldn't look on dreaming as a special and powerful way to "break through" to God. Nor am I saying that LDing can't be used as a form of prayer--I only think that caution is in order because of the highly subjective nature of the dream state.
-Lux
And when you dream you (usually) lie down.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxAeterna
How do you know it isn't your subconscious mind filling a desire for god to be there by answering yourself in your prayers in exactly the same way it is in a dream? Does god tell you when to pray?
It is difficult to decipher how to approach the Supreme Being in a dream, unless if you are very good at Astral Projection. But if you were to decide whether or not if you spoke to a being like Him/Her/It in your dream, believe me, you would know. When most individuals have a near death experience concerning the supreme being or an ascended being, they can't describe the feeling of just the sight of the being.
I couldn't say it was really "God".But I did meat a yellw bunny that claimed he was the Christian God. He was really cool, great conversationist, but whenever I asked him to prove anything, he would have some sort of transparent excuse.
"Blow up that kid"
"I can't. It's like, a sin dude."
"Fine, summon me a doughnut"
"Uhhhh....I can't...I'm on a diet. Summoning stuff gives me carbs."
"Then if your so almighty, magic the carbs away."
"Then....I'll......anger.....the uhh.....turkeys."
That's when my LD ended.
You seem to have difficulty in distinguishing your dreams from reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
A dream is a personal, subjective construct. You created it, you control it. There are no laws but what you will.
Reality is an impersonal, objective construct. You did not create it, you cannot control it. There are laws to which you are subject.
We do not live in a dreamworld where each person gets their way.
This applies to prayer. There are personal prayers, and there are objective prayers. One can pray for peace of mind, and recieve it. Perhaps the subconcious filled that request on its own, perhaps not. But when someone prays for the healing of another person, and said request is granted against all odds and natural explaination, the subconcious cannot be given credit.
Because our subconcious controls only dreams, not reality.
Very funny (not really). The actual position makes no difference, and I said that by way of symbolism. But I am sure that you knew that already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
Good question: how do we know that it is God when we pray? There is no easy answer, and many men and women of faith struggle with that doubt at different times in their lives. I would say this: the existence of God, and a personal one, seems to me eminently reasonable. Of course, it is unprovable, and that is where faith comes in. Obviously, there is a certain amount of faith involved in prayer. Furthermore, I think one of the elements of a developing faith is learning to discern your own mind's thoughts from what may be the promptings of the Divine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
There are people who can and do, as far as I can tell, manufacture "spiritual" experiences. I am thinking specifically about tongues or being slain in the Spirit. This is not to say that there are not genuine miraculous manifestations of the God-given ability to speak in tongues, or genuine epiphanies, but only that some Christian sects seem to rely on creating an emotional whirlwind that produces these highly subjective experiences that then are then taken as real.
I tend to be as incredulous of such religious experiences as I am of spiritual experiences in dreams. Again, discernment is required.
Dreams, however, are a more direct link to those parts of the mind that can produce such overpowering subjective experiences. I know that in dreams I often experience emotions in response to dream scenarios that are much more intense than most emotions in waking life--and these emotions are in response to false situations that my mind has made. In other words, these intense emotions are fabrications of my dreaming mind.
Such a thing is much less likely in normal prayer.
I simply advise that one approach any experience of the divine in an LD with caution and skepticism.
-Lux
No but I did have a dream before about jesus.
I still remember it vividly to this day.....
I was on a bus full of my old friends and we was headed somewhere. I was sitting in the front with a guy that was very beautiful and dark and mysterious. He had on all black basically and a black trenchcoat and had beautiful black hair and dark skin. I didn't really talk to him because he seemed weird then he talked to me by name. He told me that everyone on the bus was either a devil or angel. I asked him what he was talking about and he told me to turn around. I turned around and everyone had turned into a demon or an angel and they were all still acting regular, because I was the only one who could see the change besides him.
We all unloaded off the bus at this fair with thousands of people and there was a beautiful orange sky like the world had been set on fire and a long wooden fence that never ended with posters all over it and the fair in the backgroun behind it. I finally realized who he was and ran to him and he stopped and turned to me and said, "I knew you would figure it out Patience" and I asked him if he was jesus and he said yes. I then noticed that NO ONE was walking near us... everyone was walking around us in this big circle but didn't notice we was there. I then started asking him to keep my mammaw healthy and to keep my family happy and healthy and he looked down and shook his head and then looked back up to me and said, "Patience your mammaw is going to die -----" and I can't remember if he said Wednesday or the Wednesday on a 7th. I then started crying and beating his cheat and dropped to my knees and he caught me and help me and I begged him to take me instead.
I woke up not long after sweating and crying and panicing.
My mammaw has still yet to die but for 2 months after that every wednesday or 7th I would get very scared.
I really think it didn't mean anything....
I think it just has to do with what you believe in because I am a Southern Baptist... so I was raised to believe what I do.
If she does pass on a Wednesday or on a 7th.... I'll be sure to tell everyone :P
I just think it's more cool how I can still remember this dream til this day.
-patience
I would have to wonder, then, why it is that people claim their prayers are answered regardless of who or what they are praying to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvanus350
So faith, then. Faith meaning belief in spite of lack of proof. Basically what you've said to me is you believe it because you believe it. You mention "learning to discern your own mind's thoughts from what may be the promptings of the Divine" but never mention specifically how you do actually go about doing that. Is that by faith, too?Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxAeterna
Don't you know that god(s) say no a lot?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
I knew I should have put that in there... I had faith that it wouldn't come up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
:twisted:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
Yes, but that does not mean faith without reason. I cannot prove that God exists, but that does not mean that I can't make a well-reasoned, logical case for his existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
No, I didn't say that. First, see my comment above. Second, I don't think I went into any details about why I believe in God, nor do I think that this is the place.Quote:
Basically what you've said to me is you believe it because you believe it.
No, I don't say specifically how to go about doing that. I don't have a bulleted formula for spiritual discernment that I can cut and paste here. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.Quote:
You mention "learning to discern your own mind's thoughts from what may be the promptings of the Divine" but never mention specifically how you do actually go about doing that. Is that by faith, too?
And if I did have a list, I don't think this is the place to talk about such a thing. I expressed my reservations for using LDs to experience God, and gave reasons when asked, but I am not going to deliver a treatise on why we ought to believe in God or the specific character of a Christian prayer life.
If that is what you want then there are far better writers and thinkers who can give far better answers than I can--C. S. Lewis, for example.
-Lux
that is a really depressing belief. sometimes when i have a lucid, i am so overjoyed by the beauty of the moment, that i just kind of send out a "thank you god! I love you!". I feel a divine presence which i know to be my creator. let me just say that i am not a christian. i don't attempt to define or personify the creator; i just believe in him/her/it/whatever. some higher power put us here. when i am lucid i feel very close to that higher power.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxAeterna
Notice that I say above that I do not exclude the possibility of God making himself known in a dream. It seems unwise to me to use dreaming as a tool for reaching him by our own power. It is logical, really: if God is infinite, and since we are finite, he is infinitely far from us. And yet, he makes himself present to us, and draws us to him because he desires us as we desire him (whether we know it or not). To me, that's far from depressing.Quote:
Originally Posted by boognish
-Lux
I think I missed the part where you told me the difference between talking to god while awake and talking to god while asleep. The best I could come up with is that you'd said that the mind was more suggestible during sleep in terms of unwittingly synthesizing the divine, but certainly you don't think it's incapable of doing that while awake. Especially given the strong emotional attachment people have to their given religions, it's not much of a stretch to think that what may be ignored as mundane by a non-religious person may be interpreted to be divine by a religious one. We also can't rule out outright hallucinations and plain old lying to oneself.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxAeterna
For the record, "You can just tell" is a very, very bad answer.
I had one once where Jesus suddenly appeared in the sky and time ended and everyone went up to Heaven. Then I went to visit Earth and everything looked like a ghost town.
I agree. The mind can lie to itself. And because of that fact the things you mention cannot be ruled out as possibly acting on the waking mind of a religious person. I do not advocate mindlessness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
My point, again, is simply that in a dream the brain can produce an overwhelming but entirely subjective experience that a person may wrongly mistake as being a divine revelation or epiphany. Such a thing easily happens in a dream, while in real life such a false experience would be either drug related or the result of psychosis.
Is this in response to something I wrote? I hope I didn't seem to supply the answer that "you can just tell," because I agree that it is not a very good one.Quote:
For the record, "You can just tell" is a very, very bad answer.
-Lux
Psychosis such as faith?Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxAeterna
Mark75, how can you be so sure that their is no God? You said in one of your posts that there is no such thing as absolute truth. However, from your post on this thread it seems that you know what absolute truth is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
I can be sure that the Christian or similar gods do not exist by virtue that the idea is incompatible with our world. There is no evidence nor good reason to support the existence of this or any god, so for the time being I assume they do not exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by hapkidoman
I decided to quest for god in a LD.
When I found him he was a mirror. I rock.
If one can believe in the existence of an omnipotent God, then surely it wouldn't be much of a stretch for them to believe in a spiritual side to dreams as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxAeterna
I don't believe in a monotheistic god of any sort - but I must say that lucid dreaming has caused me to look again at the staunchly atheistic view i once held.
hey,
I do believe there is a divine existence.
I do think you can contact it in both waking and dreaming life.
I don't think you could tell the difference between dream and waking life spiritual experiences.
I don't think these differences exist.
yes, in waking life. Actually happens all the time. Use your ears. Just my two cents.Quote:
Were you able to do it?
I think you should cross out the little word "or" - and there you are...Quote:
Do you think it was real or just a vivid imagination?
I think that there's a essential truth revealed when you look for God in a dream and find yourself looking into the mirror.
OT remarks about topics touched upon in this discussion:
- I think God answers all prayers with acceptance and affirmation - the problem is that most people are not aware of what they are praying for
Faith is not psychosis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
-LuxQuote:
Originally Posted by The Dictionary
That's only true if you assume that the world and a Christian God cannot be reconciled. Then what you have is circular reasoning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
To me, and to many thinkers far greater than me, the idea of God is reconcilable with the world.
God is not directly provable by science because science only deals with the material world and God is immaterial. However, for those willing to look, there are many, many events in the history of the world that suggest Divine action.Quote:
There is no evidence nor good reason to support the existence of this or any god,
Furthermore, there are very good, logical reasons for believing in God.
I think that this is my last post on this thread.
-Lux
Blimey! "..drug related or the result of psychosis." So you don't think much of Mohammed, then?Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxAeterna
Thank you for posting that, I agree with your first paragraph very much after all, if a god is omnipotent then he can do anything that he wants.Quote:
Originally Posted by KxWaal
Would you mind telling me what details about lucid dreaming made you think twice about your religious or non religious views? You said in a previous post that you were trying to find God and that you saw a mirror. That seems to happen to a lot of people, what's your view point on this?
Thanks again for the post.
psy·cho·sis
A severe mental disorder, with or without organic damage, characterized by derangement of personality and loss of contact with reality and causing deterioration of normal social functioning.
So, yeah.
Finally!Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxAeterna
Missed it by that much.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxAeterna
Hmm...I don't understand. So, I have to ask: What do you mean, what are you trying to say here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
-Lux
I have had several dreams about meeting "god." By that I mean the devine, the higher power. All of these dreams have been lucid.
In one I was flying and decided to go see god. So I flew straight up into the sky. I few for a very long time, even leaving the earth behind. When I got there, I remember only a few things. I was held like a little child. I was safe and loved. And I had been expected.
In another I saw a representation of god. It was a parade of people singing, carrying banners of brightly colored cloth. I knew it was "god" because I could feel it.
In the last one god was funny. Krishna -- blue, but middle aged, pot-bellied, and enormously good natured. And sarcastic!! And wise, too.:lol:
Except the first one, I did not seek out a meeting with the devine. I look at these LDs as gifts. Little bits to keep me working at improving myself and the lives of others.:lol:
One of the first things that made me feel this way was the experience of sleep paralysis and WILDing. I've almost always feel a "presence" - This varies from euphoric ecstasy to the most crippling feeling of malevolence I've felt.Quote:
Originally Posted by hapkidoman
I've also had Lucid Dreams and dreams in general where I found myself in knowledge of things I've had no way of knowing. Things that have turned out true later. This includes both remote viewing and prophetic experiences.
As for the mirror thing... A Satanist (in Anton LaVey's sense) believes that he is his own God. It's basically humanism with a fashion sense.
I agree with many of LaVey's ideas and this is one of them.
My current spiritual viewpoint is really an eclectic mix of LaVeyan Satanism, shamanism and chaos theory.
One of my core beliefs is that perception equals reality. Whether I consider this to mean that physical reality is dictated by my expectations (much like LDing) or if I consider this to mean something more philosophical (the way I view things and context can make things "seem" different or effect me differently) - I've yet to decide.
At any rate, I've begun to view dreams as every bit as important as waking life.
Sorry if this became a bit rambling or "out there". I might have just smoked too much weed tonight.
Never, not even Jesus. I'd have thought that I would have in my whole life though... pretty strange really.
I'm actually planning on trying to, and I nearly became lucid in a non-lucid dream because I thought this image in the clouds was God, but then it spoke and it had the voice of my brother, so I forgot about lucidity.
Well, see, I've never heard a good, logical reason to belive in god, and I was sarcastically pretending that we were finally about to hear one, if only you hadn't decided that was your last post. Hence, "missed it by that much", like Max always said on Get Smart.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxAeterna
"Get Smart"? Blimey.. you're showing your age. I haven't seen that since the 60s.
Hey, watch it. Use the Cone of Silence if you are going to talk about my age. It was in re-runs, dammit. Of course even the reruns haven't been on for 30 years, have they...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneiro
Lol! My apologies.. I do now of course realise that you are 21, and that you must have seen "Get Smart" on "NBC Gold"..
Roflrofl..
Would you believe...18 and I saw them all on DVD? :sheepishgrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneiro
I just don't think this is the place to go into those reasons. This is not, after all, a thread about proving the existence of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
The good reasons are out there, and have been for centuries. The First Cause Argument originates, in a different form, with Plato and Aristotle. If you are actually interested, you can read this introductory article at the Catholic Encyclopedia: "The Existence of God."
Or the Wikipedia article of the same name.
-Lux
So what you're saying is every person who believes in God or some sort of higher being is psychotic? That would leave you in the minority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
You must be pretty special
Actually around here he may be in the majority.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrYeS
Oh, he is.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrYeS
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
Thanks for noticing. =3Quote:
Originally Posted by FrYeS
Quote:
Originally Posted by KxWaal
I'm a Christian, but I still believe some of the things that you believe such as our perceptions of reality dictate reality. You seem to be very intelligent and have a lot of meaningful things to say (which is nice in a post). As a Christian I never knew that Satanists view themselves as their own God, thank you for sharing that. Although I'm a Christian, I try to stay open minded to others' beliefs. Also, I've never heard of Anton LaVey so I'll have to look him up on the internet.
There is no god in lucid dreams.
YOU are god in lucid dreams! for sure!
That's a good point; that's what we're all going for, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by trolluz
Errrr, no..
Wow, I just checked this thread, and either I was drunk when I made this post, or just sleepy. It's stuffed with typ0es O.oQuote:
Originally Posted by Marvo
What are you going for?Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneiro
Well.. I'm trying to pass all the Gates of Dreaming as per Castaneda. Not trying to be "God" at all.
Oh. I've heard of him a lot but never read him; I guess the well-read lucid dreamer should really include him in the collection.
Thanks for the compliment. At least someone seemed interested in what I had to say. Everyone else seems busy attempting to argue for or against the existence of God. It's a futile debate that's just going to turn this thread into a long, potentially offensive mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by hapkidoman
It's not a futile debate. It's a very important debate that deserves our attention. In the interest of truth and also because our world is largely ruled by religion. To say that it is futile is to assert that no conclusive answer can be reached which may not be true, but will certainly be true if we accept that it is and don't bother in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by KxWaal
Well, it's been argued for many many many years. And I somehow doubt irreconcilable proof for the existence of God will be found here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
This thread started out as an open question as to if anyone had attempted to seek out god in a dream. If I remember, it didn't state which god - And the post had little to do with the debate it started.
Then, that Lux guy seemed particularity against the idea and this whole debate followed.
Finally Lux said the only thing I personally agree with him on in this thread:
Such a debate may have merit, but it shouldn't really be here.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxAeterna
Maybe in Beyond Dreaming, or perhaps in some philosophy/theology board somewhere.
Oh yeah, the fact that religion controls so much in the world IS a terrible thing. But that really is regardless of God/Allah/whatever being real or not. Even if there is a God in the clouds that wouldn't want me marrying any boys, it don't mean I have to give a fuck about him.
Then criticize it for being off topic, not for being worthless.