Hervey de Saint-Denis, 1867

**three and four** · 01-12-2008 03:55 PM

Hervey de Saint-Denys was a French aristocrat who in 1867 published a book called “Les Rêves et les moyens de les diriger” (“Dreams and how to guide them”). I have just finished reading it and thought I’d write a few words. My edition, in French, is almost 400 pages long. An English translation exists.

I was a bit disappointed. The French have a way of saying in a paragraph what could be said in a sentence. This is too often the case here, where elaborate speculation too often overwhelms the reader when one or two practical examples would suffice.

Despite the title, there is no or very little guidance about how to get lucid. The author seemed to have a natural ability for this, which he felt was simply brought on by keeping a dream journal. Most of his lucids seem to be DILDs. He never mentions anything that could count as a WILD.

In fact, the issue of lucidity and lucid dreams don’t take up that much room in the book: more attention is given to speculation on the nature of dreams, if we dream throughout the night, why it’s so difficult to remember dreams... It’s interesting to read intelligent speculation on these subjects dating from 1867, but advances in the 20th century now mean that a lot of these questions have been re-formulated.

The term “lucid dream” is often attributed to Frederick van Eeden in 1913. However, Saint-Denys clearly uses the term “rêves lucides” several times (part III, chapter II), so it seems to have been the Frenchman who actually coined the term.

In conclusion I’d say that if you are seriously putting together a collection of books on lucid dreams, “Dreams and how to guide them” should be a part of it (even if you don’t read the whole thing but just dip in here and there). If not, all the basics you need to know are in EWOLD.

**Oneiro** · 01-12-2008 05:55 PM

This is really interesting, three and four..

“Rêves lucides”..

Does he describe these as dreams where he realised he was dreaming?

**three and four** · 01-12-2008 07:50 PM

Yes, this is how he sometimes qualifies his lucid dreams (as we would call them). However, he does not clearly say "a lucid dream is one in which you know you are dreaming". So he does not reserve the term lucid just for what we would call LDs.

He also mentions other dreams as having a lucid quality, but meaning they were very clear, and not necessarily dreams during which he knew he was dreaming.

**Oneiro** · 01-12-2008 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by three and four

Yes, this is how he sometimes qualifies his lucid dreams (as we would call them). However, he does not clearly say "a lucid dream is one in which you know you are dreaming".

Thereby, I wonder if he was actually an LDer..

I can see how he used what we now call "dream incubation", though..

**three and four** · 01-12-2008 10:16 PM

Oh, he was an LDer for sure - but most often he calls LDs "dreams in which I knew I was dreaming", or "dreams in which I was aware of my sleeping state".

He describes techniques he would use to shift the scenery, for example: instead of the spinning technique (as described by LaBerge) he would put his hand in front of his eyes (during a lucid), which would for a moment block out the scene he wished to leave. A different scene would then appear (often linked to what he was hoping for).

He also describes a lucid in which he hears the (waking life) town clock strike five (am). In the dream he decides that this is too early to wake up so deliberately remains in the dream, asleep.

One thing he was not able to do was move his physical (sleeping) body while in a lucid dream, and remain in the dream. Experimenting with this would cause him to wake up.

No doubt, this guy was a lucid dreamer!

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