Why can't you??

[phonix]

WILD or DILD during the 1st stage of sleep?

[ninja9578]

Because there are no dreams. The first stage of sleep is deep sleep, dreams occur during REM sleep. You have a REM cycle at the end of your first sleep cycle, but your mind is still pretty deep and dreams are nonsensical and you probably won't remember it even if you went lucid. That's not to say that the first sleep cycle can't create a DILD, I know that I've done it, but they were short, blurry, and dull.

[phonix]

So I have to go 5 or 3 hours using a WBTB

[O'nus]

A full cycle of sleep typically takes 90 minutes. ~

[Bonsay]

What about the non-REM dreams?

[phonix]

You sure. Not 3 or 5 hours only 90mins? Then I can preform a DILD or WILD?

[O'nus]

What about the non-REM dreams? NREM dreams are usually so quick and short that they are nonissues. These are more typical in children where they wake up screaming because they had a flash of a scary image. These dreams are typically one event or singular in some sort of nature. I would not bother focusing on these because they are essentially beyond biological control. You can, however, be aware of them and keep it in mind if you randomly wake up in the middle of the night from a nightmare as most nightmares seem to happen during NREM sleep. Speculations show that it may be residual activity in the amygdala (cortex part for recognizing whether or not you should be afraid of your surroudings or not.. [also for a lot of other things, but for the sake of brevity, just stick with that]). Edit: yes, I am sure it is 90 minutes. Check my "Physiology of Sleep FAQ" in the tutorial section for more details. ~

[Barns]

I agree with 90 minutes, I can have a lucid after about that much.

[O'nus]

For an overview: One complete sleep cycle lasts about 90 to 100 minutes; therefore during an average sleep period a person will experience 4 to 5 complete sleep cycles. The sleep cycle begins with four stages of SWS (Slow-Wave Sleep), also called NREM (Non-REM). Note that after the completion of the 4th stage, the 5th stage does not immediately begin; instead, the first 4 stages quickly reverse and are then immediately followed by a REM period. The first REM period will occur roughly 90 minutes after falling asleep; thus the first REM period will last only about 10 minutes, given the length of each sleep cycle being roughly 100 minutes. The length of the stages is not static, however: as the night proceeds, the length of stages 3 and 4 (also called delta or deep sleep) begins to wane, and the length of REM sleep increases, up to about one hour in length after a number of cycles. Therefore, as the night goes on, you dream for longer periods of time. From: http://www.dreamviews.com/sleepstages.php ~

[Adam]

WILD or DILD during the 1st stage of sleep? You can. I have.

[Thor]

NREM dreams are usually so quick and short that they are nonissues. These are more typical in children where they wake up screaming because they had a flash of a scary image. These dreams are typically one event or singular in some sort of nature. Not entirely correct. See Domhoff, G. W. (2005-2006). Dream research in the mass media: Where journalists go wrong on dreams. The Scientific Review of Mental Health Practice, 4(2), 74-78. From the article: "First, contrary to what was thought in the early 1960s, and became a staple of the popular and journalistic imagination, it has been known since the late 1960s that dreams can occur in NREM sleep that are very similar to those reported from REM awakenings or remembered in the morning, especially from Stage II NREM late in the sleep period (e.g., Antrobus, Kondo, & Reinsel, 1995; Cicogna, Natale, Occhionero, & Bosinelli, 1998; Fosse, Stickgold, & Hobson, 2004; Foulkes, 1962; Herman, Ellman, & Roffwarg, 1978; McNamara, McLaren, Smith, Brown, & Stickgold, 2005; Rechtschaffen, Verdone, & Wheaton, 1963)."

[O'nus]

Not entirely correct. See Domhoff, G. W. (2005-2006). Dream research in the mass media: Where journalists go wrong on dreams. The Scientific Review of Mental Health Practice, 4(2), 74-78. From the article: "First, contrary to what was thought in the early 1960s, and became a staple of the popular and journalistic imagination, it has been known since the late 1960s that dreams can occur in NREM sleep that are very similar to those reported from REM awakenings or remembered in the morning, especially from Stage II NREM late in the sleep period (e.g., Antrobus, Kondo, & Reinsel, 1995; Cicogna, Natale, Occhionero, & Bosinelli, 1998; Fosse, Stickgold, & Hobson, 2004; Foulkes, 1962; Herman, Ellman, & Roffwarg, 1978; McNamara, McLaren, Smith, Brown, & Stickgold, 2005; Rechtschaffen, Verdone, & Wheaton, 1963)." This does not contradict what I said - it reinforces it. What do you mean I am not entirely correct..? Further, the article does not mention any recordings of the length of NREM dreams but does elaborate on REM dreams. My main point is that you could likely have lucid dreams in NREM sleep, but th length would be significantly shorter than REM sleep because of the responsive activity in the reticular activation system to awaken the cortex in response to this excitation. There is also integral functioning of the amygdala.. but I see no need to elaborate that point unless anyone is curious. ~

[Thor]

This does not contradict what I said - it reinforces it. What do you mean I am not entirely correct..? The article says that NREM dreams can be "very similar" to REM dreams, whereas you seem to say they are very different. That sounds like a contradiction to me.

[O'nus]

The article says that NREM dreams can be "very similar" to REM dreams, whereas you seem to say they are very different. That sounds like a contradiction to me. Apples and oranges are "very similar" depending on how you look at it; do you immediately ignore the differences? Of course, dreams in REM and NREM are more similar than apples and oranges. The differences are length and that NREM dreams are typically of singular nature. If you want citations for us, let me know. However, if you search up "night tremors" and their causation, you will likely find residual research on the differences between NREM and REM dreams. ~

[Thor]

Apples and oranges are "very similar" depending on how you look at it; do you immediately ignore the differences? Empty rhetoric is not a substitute for facts. Of course, dreams in REM and NREM are more similar than apples and oranges. The differences are length and that NREM dreams are typically of singular nature. Different length, yes. Singular nature, no. You might want to read Rosenlicht, N., & Feinberg, I. (1999). REM sleep = dreaming: Only a dream. Sleep Research Society Bulletin, 3, 10-12. From the article: Goodenough et al. (1959) appear to have been the first to seriously question the REM=dreaming equivalence. They reported that a group of subjects (Ss) who reported frequent spontaneous recall of dreams at home had a high (53%) rate of dream recall in experimental awakenings from NREM sleep. Three years later, Foulkes (1962) reported a similarly high (54%) rate of dream reports from NREM awakenings in Ss unselected with respect to dream recall. With reports of "thinking" included as dreams, this rate jumped to 74%, close to the ~80% usually obtained from REM awakenings. Foulkes did, however, find qualitative differences between REM and NREM dreams. Narratives from NREM awakenings tended to have a lower incidence of affective events and visual images than those from REM. This observation, which remains influential in textbooks and other literature, turned out to be misleading, as we discuss below. [...] As it became evident that mental activity occurs in NREM sleep, some argued that REM dreams were qualitatively different because they were often more bizarre and affect laden. However, REM reports are usually longer than NREM reports. Therefore, when comparing the incidence of "dreamlike" events (visual images, discontinuities, etc.) in narratives from the two states, the length of the report must be taken into account. Antrobus (1983) demonstrated that when length of dream report, as measured by TRC (total recall count) is partialed out, the apparent qualitative differences between REM and NREM reports disappeared. A number of investigators including Foulkes and Schmidt (1983), Fein et al. (1985), Cavallero and Foulkes (1990), and Cavallero et al. (1992) have also shown that when length of dream report is controlled, there is little or no difference between REM and NREM reports. Thus, if narratives elicited by awakenings from REM have distinguishing features, these have yet to be demonstrated.

[O'nus]

Empty rhetoric is not a substitute for facts. I really think you're jumping the gun to argue me, we'll see why in a moment. Different length, yes. Singular nature, no. You might want to read Rosenlicht, N., & Feinberg, I. (1999). REM sleep = dreaming: Only a dream. Sleep Research Society Bulletin, 3, 10-12. From the article: Goodenough et al. (1959) appear to have been the first to seriously question the REM=dreaming equivalence. They reported that a group of subjects (Ss) who reported frequent spontaneous recall of dreams at home had a high (53%) rate of dream recall in experimental awakenings from NREM sleep. Three years later, Foulkes (1962) reported a similarly high (54%) rate of dream reports from NREM awakenings in Ss unselected with respect to dream recall. With reports of "thinking" included as dreams, this rate jumped to 74%, close to the ~80% usually obtained from REM awakenings. Foulkes did, however, find qualitative differences between REM and NREM dreams. Narratives from NREM awakenings tended to have a lower incidence of affective events and visual images than those from REM. This observation, which remains influential in textbooks and other literature, turned out to be misleading, as we discuss below. As it became evident that mental activity occurs in NREM sleep, some argued that REM dreams were qualitatively different because they were often more bizarre and affect laden. However, REM reports are usually longer than NREM reports. Therefore, when comparing the incidence of "dreamlike" events (visual images, discontinuities, etc.) in narratives from the two states, the length of the report must be taken into account. Antrobus (1983) demonstrated that when length of dream report, as measured by TRC (total recall count) is partialed out, the apparent qualitative differences between REM and NREM reports disappeared. A number of investigators including Foulkes and Schmidt (1983), Fein et al. (1985), Cavallero and Foulkes (1990), and Cavallero et al. (1992) have also shown that when length of dream report is controlled, there is little or no difference between REM and NREM reports. Thus, if narratives elicited by awakenings from REM have distinguishing features, these have yet to be demonstrated. I don't even have to say anything. I will just repeat that these dreams are just typically nonissue and not worth too much focus on. Perhaps I should re-iterate that they are typically singular in nature because of their length. Of course, the quality and emotional interpretation of the dream is similar (just like any experience to experience) but the length is significantly different. All that you really did here was provide evidence for what I said. I hope I have shown you how we never really disagreed here. ~

[Thor]

I hope I have shown you how we never really disagreed here. Ok, so now you agree that the only difference is length and that they are not singular in nature. But you also said that "[NREM dreams] are more typical in children where they wake up screaming because they had a flash of a scary image", which is incorrect since Foulkes reported a high rate of dream reports from NREM awakenings in subjects unselected with respect to dream recall. Furthermore, you said that "NREM dreams are usually so quick and short that they are nonissues". This is also incorrect since at least 5-10% of NREM awakenings elicit dream reports which are indistinguishable from REM reports. And it is hardly a non-issue with respect to lucid dreaming since a similar percentage of lucid dreams occur in NREM sleep.

[O'nus]

Ok, so now you agree that the only difference is length and that they are not singular in nature. But you also said that "[NREM dreams] are more typical in children where they wake up screaming because they had a flash of a scary image", which is incorrect since Foulkes reported a high rate of dream reports from NREM awakenings in subjects unselected with respect to dream recall. Furthermore, you said that "NREM dreams are usually so quick and short that they are nonissues". This is also incorrect since at least 5-10% of NREM awakenings elicit dream reports which are indistinguishable from REM reports. And it is hardly a non-issue with respect to lucid dreaming since a similar percentage of lucid dreams occur in NREM sleep. No, they typically are singular in nature because of the length. Do you see what I mean by this..? It may be misleading, but I am just saying that the length typically reduces the amount of content. Even REM periods are capable of just having one incident happen; the depth of this being very relative. NREM dreams are typically very quick and nonissue because you should also investigate how many people can actually recall the content of these NREM dreams. As you stated, 5-10% are indistinguishable, but what about the other 90%? I am just saying that they are nonissue in the sense that if your goal is to have lucid dreams, aim at the REM period, not NREM periods; your chances are significantly higher. Agreed..? ~

[Thor]

I am just saying that they are nonissue in the sense that if your goal is to have lucid dreams, aim at the REM period, not NREM periods; your chances are significantly higher. Agreed..? You can't really aim at a particular sleep stage. What you can do is to aim at the second half of the night, when the likelihood of having a lucid dream is far higher than in the first. It won't matter much to you if the dream occurs in stage 2 or REM. And if you're WILDing it's not unlikely that the dream will actually occur in NREM sleep, since you will normally spend some time in stage 2 before you enter REM. The original poster asked why you can't WILD or DILD during the first stage of sleep. Well, the answer is that you can, and some people do it. It's just less likely to happen. (He may have meant the first cycle of sleep, but that doesn't change the answer.)

[O'nus]

You can't really aim at a particular sleep stage. What you can do is to aim at the second half of the night, when the likelihood of having a lucid dream is far higher than in the first. It won't matter much to you if the dream occurs in stage 2 or REM. And if you're WILDing it's not unlikely that the dream will actually occur in NREM sleep, since you will normally spend some time in stage 2 before you enter REM. The original poster asked why you can't WILD or DILD during the first stage of sleep. Well, the answer is that you can, and some people do it. It's just less likely to happen. (He may have meant the first cycle of sleep, but that doesn't change the answer.) Agreed, no comlaints here. I hope the original poster got all the information throughout this. Thor, you should contribute more often. ~

[Adam]

Been interesting reading all this

[Thor]

I hope the original poster got all the information throughout this. Thor, you should contribute more often. It's always interesting to debate with you; you're a good opponent, and I discover lots of new information in the process.

[CloudOne]

What about Daydreaming? Sometimes the dreams come even before i fall asleep. And yes, even the lucid ones come as fast as I fall asleep.

[Thor]

What about Daydreaming? Sometimes the dreams come even before i fall asleep. And yes, even the lucid ones come as fast as I fall asleep. Yes, under certain conditions it's also possible to dream while you are awake, but these dreams are real dreams and not daydreams. Daydreaming means that you imagine stuff.

[CloudOne]

Yes, under certain conditions it's also possible to dream while you are awake, but these dreams are real dreams and not daydreams. Daydreaming means that you imagine stuff. Ah, thanks for clearing this up for me. It happened to me a few times...