Thread: Dream Control Vs. Dreaming Dream Control

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

I am rather new to lucid dreams, or at least to hands-on experience with it. Pretty much all of my knowledge comes from studying consciousness as a philosophy major in college, and of course watching The Waking Life. But I wanted to pose this question to see what people had to say.

If lucid dreaming involves control and being completely aware of ones dream; how is this distinguished from dreaming that you are aware/in control of your dream? That is that you do not have any true control, you are simply dreaming that you do. I understand a lot of people will just say they can tell the difference ect... but how could you ever know that the conscious self has control over the dream, and that you have not simply trained yourself to dream that you are in control of a dream.

Yeah....I too have this question. The lucid dreams I had are programmed before hand to happen. I did post a topic on this not too long ago about 2 kinds of lucid dreams. The ones that U do become concious and aware that it's a dream and the other types that are more 'programmed'...something happens and U remember to do a reality check and U 'realise' Ur dreaming and U go and do the thing as planned. But technically both are lucid dreams wether U dream that U do or not. It has more to do with the level of lucidity...the higher the lucidity, the more awareness...some can be as high or even higher than waking conciousness as my first lucid dream was.

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Originally Posted by Nietzsche

I am rather new to lucid dreams, or at least to hands-on experience with it. Pretty much all of my knowledge comes from studying consciousness as a philosophy major in college, and of course watching The Waking Life. But I wanted to pose this question to see what people had to say.

If lucid dreaming involves control and being completely aware of ones dream; how is this distinguished from dreaming that you are aware/in control of your dream? That is that you do not have any true control, you are simply dreaming that you do. I understand a lot of people will just say they can tell the difference ect... but how could you ever know that the conscious self has control over the dream, and that you have not simply trained yourself to dream that you are in control of a dream.

It's a reasonable question but, in the end, it's pretty much the same as asking:

How do you know that you're consciously experiencing control of your real life, and not just an automated perception of what is really the illusion of control?

In the end, we can never know, but you can't ignore the question in one instance, and analyze it in another.

But, to bring it down into terms of "what we know": When you are in a nightmare and you realize that it's just a nightmare and you beg, plead and demand for yourself to wake up - and you're able to do that - what evidence do you have that that awareness you experienced, while dreaming, was false?

If you do this over a period of time, and you're able to exact it to a science to where, whenever you are in a scenario that you realize is a nightmare, you can will yourself awake - and remember the exact thought process that brought you through the nightmare and out of it - what evidence do you have that what you've experienced was illusory awareness?

If you go to sleep listening to an album and, while dreaming, you hear the music playing, realize you're dreaming, wake yourself up, and the sound carries over seamlessly from your dream into the waking world, what evidence do you have that your hearing the song - and realizing it was playing through your head because you were in a dream - was an "illusion of awareness"?

As far as I've experienced, the answer to the all of the above is "None."

Can you dispute this?

The truth is, there is no way to prove that you are lucid dreaming, as opposed to dreaming that you are lucid dreaming. Others may claim it's a paradox. But what really matters is what happens in those dreams. If you simply continue with what you are doing, or try to do something absurd, then chances are you are not very lucid. If you choose to do what you decided to do in waking life during your next lucid dream, then you are more lucid. If you can remember what you had for dinner and how to do math, then you are even more lucid.

Those are generalizations, of course. It doesn't matter how you define lucid dreaming. If you have a dream, and you know that you are dreaming, and it feels just as real as waking life, and you feel no bounds to joy and possibility, and you think as clearly as waking life, then you are fully lucid for the purposes discussed on this board.

If you want to know my true opinion, it's that we are always aware that we are dreaming. Life would not make sense otherwise. If our brains somehow could not distinguish the dream state, we would act dream-like in real life situations! We innately know we are dreaming as we begin to dream. Because we know we're safely inside our beds, parts of the brain "shut off," including those involved with logic and reasoning. The more aware we are of the dream state, the more active these parts of the brain become. Dreaming+parts of brain normally active only while awake=lucid dream.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

It's a reasonable question but, in the end, it's pretty much the same as asking:

How do you know that you're consciously experiencing control of your real life, and not just an automated perception of what is really the illusion of control?

The illusion of control that you are talking about is called Epiphenominalism, and it is quite intriguing. In short it says that consciousness & freewill are in fact just by products of our physical brain, and it is incredibly persuasive. The idea that we have a non-physical mind connotes dualism, which is plagued with problems. How does a thought (non-physical) interact with a neuron (physical) ect... In short, It is incredibly likely that our freewill is completely an illusion, as it seems freewill would imply a non-physical mind. But that is beside the point.

In the end, we can never know, but you can't ignore the question in one instance, and analyze it in another.

Sure one day we will know the truth behind consciousness. People have claimed throughout history to KNOW that we will never discover this or that.

But, to bring it down into terms of "what we know": When you are in a nightmare and you realize that it's just a nightmare and you beg, plead and demand for yourself to wake up - and you're able to do that - what evidence do you have that that awareness you experienced, while dreaming, was false?





If you do this over a period of time, and you're able to exact it to a science to where, whenever you are in a scenario that you realize is a nightmare, you can will yourself awake - and remember the exact thought process that brought you through the nightmare and out of it - what evidence do you have that what you've experienced was illusory awareness?

I am not 100% sure what means. That the nightmare you did not really happen? The fact that you could just wake up seems to be pretty good evidence. 'Real' experiences do not afford the luxury of altering them view thoughts. That is how Berkley ultimately determined the difference between Dream States and reality. You cannot walk into a room and change it with you mind, but you can in a dream.

If you mean that dreams are not real experiences, I would say they are. They may be be experiences in reality, but the fact that you imagine what you do is an experience none the less.

If you go to sleep listening to an album and, while dreaming, you hear the music playing, realize you're dreaming, wake yourself up, and the sound carries over seamlessly from your dream into the waking world, what evidence do you have that your hearing the song - and realizing it was playing through your head because you were in a dream - was an "illusion of awareness"?

But this seems to spark retro-selective dream experience. Many people argue that dreams are only forged upon waking up. That it is simply the projection of parallel images and thoughts that happened while sleeping pieced together.

[QUOTE=Abra;711148]The truth is, there is no way to prove that you are lucid dreaming, as opposed to dreaming that you are lucid dreaming. Others may claim it's a paradox. But what really matters is what happens in those dreams. If you simply continue with what you are doing, or try to do something absurd, then chances are you are not very lucid. If you choose to do what you decided to do in waking life during your next lucid dream, then you are more lucid. If you can remember what you had for dinner and how to do math, then you are even more lucid.

Those are generalizations, of course. It doesn't matter how you define lucid dreaming. If you have a dream, and you know that you are dreaming, and it feels just as real as waking life, and you feel no bounds to joy and possibility, and you think as clearly as waking life, then you are fully lucid for the purposes discussed on this board.

[QUOTE]

If you want to know my true opinion, it's that we are always aware that we are dreaming. Life would not make sense otherwise. If our brains somehow could not distinguish the dream state, we would act dream-like in real life situations! We innately know we are dreaming as we begin to dream. Because we know we're safely inside our beds, parts of the brain "shut off," including those involved with logic and reasoning. The more aware we are of the dream state, the more active these parts of the brain become. Dreaming+parts of brain normally active only while awake=lucid dream.

I am not so sure about that. I am not too well versed in Psychology, but I do not believe there is a logic part of our brain. Many people attribute the chaos & lack of logic in our dreams to the brains need to sort out some sort of storyline from the projection of images and thoughts in the dreaming brain.

I am in no way discounting Lucid dreams, I am just posing these questions as a discussion. I would love to dream lucidly.

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

The illusion of control that you are talking about is called Epiphenominalism, and it is quite intriguing. In short it says that consciousness & freewill are in fact just by products of our physical brain, and it is incredibly persuasive. The idea that we have a non-physical mind connotes dualism, which is plagued with problems. How does a thought (non-physical) interact with a neuron (physical) ect... In short, It is incredibly likely that our freewill is completely an illusion, as it seems freewill would imply a non-physical mind. But that is beside the point.

I'm not alluding to whether or not we have non-physical minds. I'm simply saying that your initial question has a subtle problem with it's premise: That your asking whether or not we're really in control of our dreams is like asking whether or not we're really in control of our waking lives. We have little to no evidence that we aren't, but we have (IMHO) much more substantial evidence that we are. However, to ask for an absolute answer is to ask for an answer that (given the little bit of evidence that we do have) can be argued indefinitely.

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

Sure one day we will know the truth behind consciousness. People have claimed throughout history to KNOW that we will never discover this or that.

No no. Don't get me wrong. I don't mean to say we will never find the truth - only that we, here and now, don't have the tools to solve such a question with any absolute confidence. I'm merely illustrating how the question that you're posing can be so easily deemed unanswerable, at this point in time. The "logical" stance that says that we can't be awake in dreams (or, logical by the standards of much of mainstream science) can easily be taken - when such a question, as you have asked, is asked. But, when compared to the same question, when dealing with waking life, it's shown that the question itself (as of now) has no unarguable answer.

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

I am not 100% sure what means. That the nightmare you did not really happen? The fact that you could just wake up seems to be pretty good evidence. 'Real' experiences do not afford the luxury of altering them view thoughts. That is how Berkley ultimately determined the difference between Dream States and reality. You cannot walk into a room and change it with you mind, but you can in a dream.

If you mean that dreams are not real experiences, I would say they are. They may be be experiences in reality, but the fact that you imagine what you do is an experience none the less.

Oh no. Quite the opposite. I believe that dreams are real experiences. I believe that most people fault in comparing them to waking world experiences. Many people believe that only what happens in the waking world is a "real" experience. I believe the opposite.

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

But this seems to spark retro-selective dream experience. Many people argue that dreams are only forged upon waking up. That it is simply the projection of parallel images and thoughts that happened while sleeping pieced together.

I've never heard that theory before. I definitely beg to differ, though. I believe that (as many do) dreams happen all throughout sleep, and it is only our recollection of them that holds any weight, when we awaken.

I've pondered this before myself and I decided that it doesn't matter if we are really aware or just dreaming we are aware. Because in the end it makes no difference. All we have is the memories of that experience, and regardless of how those memories formed, they exist and thats all that matters.

I believe lucid dreaming may very well be just a normal dream where the idea of lucid dreaming has permeated into the dream and we act as if we are aware. But I don't personally care if that is the case, since I can still go run a muck in my dream and do whatever I want

I'm also kind of a believer in the whole choice is an illusion thing. And that freewill is just by products of our physical brain like you said Nietzsche. Although I'm not as well versed in the subject as you seem to be. But I see us as very much physical beings. Every thought or action we take is the result of a physical reaction without our brain, and these reactions are governed by science, the laws of nature etc... and as such can't have a different outcome than the one they do.

For example (and this is something I saw on Numbers recently) if you smash a glass ball full of bubblegum balls, you could take the end positions of each individual ball and calculate its exact starting point before you smashed the ball. So each bubblegum ball was destined to land in a certain place based on the laws of physics. In the same way I believe we are destined to become whatever we become and there is no real choice involved. If we somehow knew what that destiny was, it would then change because that knowledge would be factored into the equation, therefor there is an illusion of choice.

But like the lucid dreaming thing, whether we have a real choice or not doesn't matter, as the outcome is the same and we still think we have a choice.

Eck, I hope that made sense.

I want to mention something, I'm not sure you understand.
Being Lucid in a dream, and having control of that dream, are completely different things.

If you ever suddenly stop in the middle of what your doing, because the full realization that you are dreaming washes over you. And with that knowledge, you look around at your environment with wonder and joy, because you are 100% sure it's all being created by your mind. And your able to make your next decisions based on that knowledge. You will know the truth of Lucidity.
A person can be 100% Lucid, and have absolutely no control of events other than his/her own actions or reactions.

But it is very possible to consciously control aspects of the dream. Though the degree of control depends on the dreamer. It's something that takes skill and practice. Some people learn faster than others. But even the best controlled dream, is going to have random things happen that the dreamer never expected. The surprises are one of the things I enjoy the most. I love the exploration aspect.

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

I understand a lot of people will just say they can tell the difference ect...

From this quoted statement, it sounds to me like you have already decided that the word of an experienced Lucid Dreamer is not good enough. The only thing anyone on this forum can do for you, is tell you that they can tell the difference etc... So I'm not quite sure why you asked the question.

The only research that is going to do you any real good. Is to learn to Lucid Dream, and decide for yourself.

Being aware that you are dreaming and dreaming that you are aware you are dreaming are for all intents and purposes identical.

Having control of your dream and dreaming that you have control of your dream are for all intents and purposes identical.

It's kind of like asking if there is a difference between dreaming that you see a car or dreaming that you hallucinate a car. Since a dream is a form of hallucination anyway, there is no difference.

I think you are always in control, whether subconsciously, semi consciously, or completely consciously. If you aren't in control, then who is?

If you are aware that you are dreaming then you are lucid. At that point you can decide what you want to do with the dream. I think dreams and dream content are for a reason, and many times consciously decide not to interfere with it, but rather play along with it or let it play out. I'm not really sure if those are a high level or low level lucid dreams.

Other times I get so overwhelmed by the lucidity itself, that I basically stop the dream,... and redirect it.

Does it matter whether we are dreaming that we have control, or if we actually have control? It still results in the same. Ultimately, if you believe that you are in control, then the actuality of that control soon becomes irrelevant.

At this point I think we have to ask ourselves if nightmares serve a purpose and are we in control of them? I would have to say yes!

However, if you become lucid during a nightmare then the fear dissipates.

I had this dream once that I was being chased by angry men with swords. My legs turned to Jello as I was trying to get away, just as they caught up with me, and at the moment they were swinging their swords towards my body, I became lucid! I said to my self, I'm just going to jump forward and lay down in the position my physical body is in (laying on my back) and wake up. That's exactly what happened!

Originally Posted by Who I Am

At this point I think we have to ask ourselves if nightmares serve a purpose and are we in control of them? I would have to say yes!

However, if you become lucid during a nightmare then the fear dissipates.

In EWOLD LaBerge talks about confronting nightmares. His view is that the very best way to conquer your fears that manifest themselves as nightmares is to welcome them. If you are being chased by a monster, stop and turn to get a good look at it. Then smile and extend friendship. At this point, the monster will generally diminish in size, become friendly, and/or simply vanish.

More over, what does it matter? Life is but a dream any how, who cares. I believe this is all an illusion, and our identities are even more non-existent. So whether we control what happens or it is predetermined, none of it is real in the first place. That tops fate any day friend.