Only durring REM?

it's said REM begins roughly 90 minutes after you fall asleep, and i understand the stages of sleep and all that. but then what is a WILD? how is that possible if clear and lucid dreams are only possible durring REM? along that line, when we fall asleep at night, often times we get vivid images that almost suck us in, just before we doze off. you've probably noticed the images become more clear as you drop off into sleep, and sometimes it feels you're suddenly there in another world. it's more than just hypnogogic imagery wouldn't you say? and that's the entrance to a WILD from what i've learned. so just curious why that's possible if REM sleep is the only time such lucidity is possible. of course napping durring the day probably begins with REM quickly, but not at night, according to the stages.

That's why you do a WBTB
The purpose is to wake up when you're next to your next REM period and then go asleep (aware) and experience the REM which is your dream

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Originally Posted by mrToad

but then what is a WILD?

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The issue that you brought up is precisely why WILD is usually attempted in combination with WBTB.

The idea is that by waking up 5-6 hours into your sleep and then attempting to WILD, your body will be more readily prepared to enter the REM stage of sleep, since you get the majority of your REM-time in the last few of sleep as opposed to the first few.

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Originally Posted by mrToad

how is that possible if clear and lucid dreams are only possible durring REM?

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This isn't strictly true. It is possible to become lucid any time that you dream - however, dreaming is not exclusively an REM phenomenon. While the great majority of dreams occur during the REM stage, it is possible to dream while in one of the NREM stages. It is also possible to have an REM stage without dreaming. However, since most dreams occur during the REM stage, it is useful and convenient (although not strictly accurate) to equate REM sleep with "dreaming sleep."

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Originally Posted by mrToad

along that line, when we fall asleep at night, often times we get vivid images that almost suck us in, just before we doze off. you've probably noticed the images become more clear as you drop off into sleep, and sometimes it feels you're suddenly there in another world. it's more than just hypnogogic imagery wouldn't you say?

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Who is we? I experience no such things when I fall asleep. Not that this is a rare phenomenon, but it's not quite as common as you are supposing. As far as whether or not this is the same thing as the transition phase of WILD, you'll have to talk to people with more "hands-on" experience with WILD than myself (I am terrible at it). However, from what I've read and heard in my time on these boards, there is a great deal of variation in the nature of the transition phase between individuals and even within individuals over time.

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Originally Posted by mrToad

when we fall asleep at night, often times we get vivid images that almost suck us in, just before we doze off. you've probably noticed the images become more clear as you drop off into sleep, and sometimes it feels you're suddenly there in another world. it's more than just hypnogogic imagery wouldn't you say?

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I've experienced that, and it's a form of hypnogogic imagery, I'd say. I don't usually see what's going on as much as just know. I sometimes recall hearing people talking or talking with others, but the only times I actively recall those events is when I get some sensation that causes me to jerk awake. I'll get the sensation that someone is going to touch my arm or that I'm going to step somewhere, so I'll jerk that limb and come immediately awake.

I believe it's a form of dreaming (sort of), but only as the mind enters deeper stages of sleep. Whether someone experiences these or not might be a result of how quickly or easily they fall asleep. Since the person goes into a deep stage of sleep, it becomes very easy to forget what happened. I don't recall any specific things that happen when I experience it, other than there was a reason for me jerking awake.

if i'm paying attention, sort of like waiting for a theater movie to begin, often times i do see vivid scenes come to life as my body falls to sleep. and often with more clarity than my morning dreams. it's like my mind is more awake when i go to sleep than in the morning. of course it's difficult to hold it there. it usually gets my attention because it's amazing and it fleets. either that or my body shakes because it's entering paralysis and i become conscious of what's happening, i startle, and become awake again. to me it seems with practice this would be an excellent gate for a WILD. you could step right into it consciencely. anyway that's why i'm puzzled. those beginning stages at night don't lend to vivid experiences, but i have them before i drop off regularly.

one night i did it accidently a couple years ago. i was listening to some abstract music while watching hypnogogic images. that's fun if you haven't tried it. the staticy sound in the earphones stimulated my mind, but i was tired enough to drop into a dreamstate. the feeling came suddenly--i dropped thru my bedroom floor and freefell into some dark stone-walled room with torches. scared the cripe out of me and i woke up. the equilibrium most do some odd things when you WILD.