Logically, why SHOULD text change upon multiple readings?

I've been running this over in my mind for a long time, and I never can understand this; why SHOULD text change upon multiple readings. I do understand that if you simply glance at text, then glance back, it can change because you consciously didn't think about it, and with dreaming being completely internal, it could be "rewritten" so to speak since technically that objects ceased to "exist" when you looked away from it, and later glances can spark changes. However, what I don't understand is why text that is consciously read and memorized for a reality check could work. If you do a reality check with text, you must memorize the sentence or word before you look at it again, or your reality check would be completely pointless. However, now that you have done this, why should subsequent glances show different wording or numbers? I doubt that it is extensively difficult for the mind to remember the position of numbers on a digital clock, or a couple words on a page for a couple seconds. To me, logic says the sentence should read exactly the same, and clocks should read the same time.

The reason I'm asking this is that I want you guys to try something out. Next lucid dream, if you remember (and I know how hard it is to remember something in a dream), I'd like you all to try this out, trying to expect that you SHOULD be able to see the same thing. I will also try if I remember, but so far I have only read, but never reread. If anybody else has a comment on this, and a possible explanation (placebo?), or has already experienced it, put it in this thread. Thanks.

Because the subconcient knows its a dream? And you know subconciently that text changes in dreams and that the world your at is a dream (while dreaming)? Not like that holds true in my dreams, but it is true for most, so I say its that <.<

Because you're making it up as you go along. But it's not completely random. Everything that comes next in a dream is influenced by what you are currently focused on.

So for that initial reading of the text, you have the events leading up to the reading that influence the start of the text, then the text kind of feeds off it's self from there. If you go back to read it again, your approach and focus are different from the first time, and too many of the initial variables have changed to produce the exact same text.

I've tried looking for the winning lottery numbers from a newspaper dated in the future in one lucid. A waste of time, I don't recommend it. I would have had better luck asking a dog what the winning numbers were.

you know the good thing about it? it's on more way to become lucid. if the dreamscape was stable like reality, we would have a lot more trouble getting lucid. as for the question, I think the brain wouldn't consider text as something important in dreams.

!!! text!

I think the more pertinent question, would be "Why should text stay the same in a dream?"

It's obvious why it would stay stable in waking life: because it has an independent objective existence apart from your thoughts and perception.

In a dream there is no independent, stable reality for you to percive.
Everything is created within your brains world-modeling system. There is no stability inherent in this system. There is no world outside yourself to percive. Your perception IS the world.

In the real world just because you cant see what is behind you dosn't stop it existing. In the dream world however, this is not the case, It exists because you percive it, or more to the point your direct perception of the dream, is the dream.

Why should text be different from other seemingly more stable elements of dreams? Well, that's another important question. Perhaps much of what you experience is based mostly on memory data. The stability and quality of this data is no doubt related to how well established it is as a neural pathway. It would make sense that a memory (neural pattern/pathway system) that is both older and used often by the brain, would be better established, "written in darker ink in the diary of your mind". So that for example, a house you've lived in 10 years, is more likely to be firmly recorded in your mind, than say, the office you visited for the first and last time today.

Perhaps also, language in the form of written text, is a reasonably new development in the human mind, compared to say, percetption of space, colour, texture, sound. All of which would have been established in the human mind, since the dawn of the human mind. The ability to read however, is a learnt skill, rather than having a basis in the basic survival needs of the human mind, it most likely it takes a combination of mental processes to occur. It's a juggling act between different psychological systems, so is more unstable because of that. Visual processing, pattern recognition, cross referenced with the language centers of the brain, and as a learnt rather than inherent skill, will require more processing power in minds recall/memory systems.

I would assume that a combination of the factors above, and probably other factors (such as the level of activity of different brain regions whilst in REM compared to waking) is the reason why our brains find it harder to model stable text.

In fact from the thoughts above I would posit, that naturaly occuring objects and environments (such as the sea, the sky, trees, plants, the natural world) will be more stable in the dreamscape than man-made objects and environments. I would also go as far as to say, the more complex and modern the man made item/enviroment, the higher the chance for it to be prone to dream instability. Would make an interesting area of study perhaps?


Also, Yosemine,
I too wondered along your lines of thought, however, the other day, a friend of mine, who's never heard anything about lucid dreaming, saw my galantamine pills (which i never use but like to have handy just in case) and asked what they were for. I explained the basic idea of lucid dreaming, and gave him a couple. Never explained anything about dreamsigns, text changing whatsoever.
The next day, his lucid dream report was full of these kinds of dreamsigns (text changing on his mobile phone etc.). Regardless of him expecting them to happen, as he had no idea. I also went as far as to double check he'd not read something, or i'd not told him and forgotten. He swears that he had no idea.


EDIT: it's also just occured to me that reading text in a dream, and remembering it, would be a process of the short term memory. We all know that memory in dreams is one of the most highly effected areas of the dream experience. Perhaps the more stable items are those things reliant on long term memory, and short term memory is is culprit.

Personally, I don't have much trouble reading and rereading text. In fact there are ( or at least were ) several other individuals on dream views that claimed to have this ability. There is really no reason that I can think of as to why the text has to change. I believe that the main obstacle preventing people from learning this is their own self-imposed restrictions. Restrictions that they have most likely based off of a few failed attempts and a massive quantity of naysayers. "I can" and "I cannot" are very powerful, especially in dreams. That's not to say that text cannot and will not change as like everything else in a dream it is unstable and subject to the moment. It should be, however, a learnable skill for most.

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Originally Posted by Yosemine

However, what I don't understand is why text that is consciously read and memorized for a reality check could work. If you do a reality check with text, you must memorize the sentence or word before you look at it again, or your reality check would be completely pointless. However, now that you have done this, why should subsequent glances show different wording or numbers?

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My best guess would be that they are subconsciously expecting it to change. However, text like everything else is unstable and so that answer may not apply to everyone. Just about anything and everything can be used as a reality check in this way.

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

it's also just occured to me that reading text in a dream, and remembering it, would be a process of the short term memory. We all know that memory in dreams is one of the most highly effected areas of the dream experience. Perhaps the more stable items are those things reliant on long term memory, and short term memory is is culprit..

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I consider myself to have excellent recall being able to remember multiple dreams a night. Of all the things I can remember, text is one of the most difficult. I find that if any text is worth taking back to reality the only ensuring way to get it there is through repetition. So it most certainly is some function of short term memory. However, this applies to reality as well. Honestly, how much text can any one individual remember before they start to forget? Most of us should be able to grasp what was said but I doubt it would be repeatable word for word with just one pass. Like all skills it needs to be learnt. I agree that objects reliant on long term memory are far more stable then those reliant on short term memory. I do disagree with some of the other things in your reply. I would have to say that the more complex the environment the more unstable it becomes. Whether or not the environment is artificial or natural.

From the biological standpoint, during sleep and dreams part of the brain is shut off(dorsolateral prefrontal cortex?). Specifically, it is one of the logic centers of the brain. It has been theorized that most of us don't become lucid every night due to this part being inactive. We can't logically figure out that flying green cows aren't normal and become lucid.

Reading, math, etc. are all logical things. You must use logic, even if on a low level to read and interpret letters into words into ideas. If the logic center is out of commission, then it stands to reason your sleeping brain wouldn't be able to support static logical characters once you stop paying attention to them.

In short, a possible reason is your inability to think logically in a dream. Natural lucid dreamers probably don't have their logical thought processes inhibited as much.

Also, placebo is definitely a factor. So much of what we can and can't do in a lucid dream is based on our expectations, it stands to reason that some of those who are capable of reading normally aren't able to because they are prejudiced to think otherwise.

Perhaps coherent text is the most difficult thing for the brain to construct in dreamland. This raises another question. What if other things besides text change when we look at them twice and we've just never noticed it before?
Maybe if I look at a shelf with books and CDs arranged in a certain order then look away then back, maybe that order changes too. I've just never paid attention to that before. I usually look at an object only once then move on.

I've always been able to read and reread text in my dreams.

What I have trouble with are light switches and turning night to day and vice versa. I wish someone could tell me how to do THAT :shock:

Heh, I thought you were talking about waking life OP.

Anyway, that brings a similar point across. Even in waking life, when we read something, and then re-read it, we often find that we missed bits, skipped bits, sometimes even totally misread bits.

I think it's because of a changing perspective, filtering things out. That of course applies to dreaming, even though in dreams something 'physically' changing is of course very easy to happen to. Regardless, in a dream it is still a projection of perspective.

Your perspective constantly changing, what you see is going to obviously change, as well as the totally projected environment of dreams being directly altered through that.

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Originally Posted by Lucid Lobster

Perhaps coherent text is the most difficult thing for the brain to construct in dreamland. This raises another question. What if other things besides text change when we look at them twice and we've just never noticed it before?
Maybe if I look at a shelf with books and CDs arranged in a certain order then look away then back, maybe that order changes too. I've just never paid attention to that before. I usually look at an object only once then move on.

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I had a dream that I was in a car park, and when I looked at a row of cars, looked away, then looked back, they were completely different models, colours and license plates.
also DC's disappear or morph on me when I look away and I find it hard to keep my lucid's stable at times unless they are WILD's
Everyones brain is different, therefore dream content, control and stability will vary from person to person.