Discussion of "Natural" lucid dreamer Criteria

[moonshine]

As for why, she is an empath, and she thinks that that probably has a lot to do with it. Even if you don't beleive in empaths, I can assure you she is a natural LDer. She keeps a dream journal and everything. Does she feel human emotions, or pets? Can you be a natural if you keep a dream journal? One of the greatest steps to Lucidity is taking the time to remember and record your dreams, which by its nature takes a degree of effort. From your awesome definition I would consider myself a natural. I have had LD's as a child, but no awarenss of control i.e. I would know I was in a dream and begin flying everywhere, that was pretty much the extent of it. Once I found DV (end of Jan 2009) I've had 8 awesome controlled LDs and five were definitly some form of WILD. As in, I either saw HH form into a scene and I got sucked in, or I would start in my room, tumbling, somersaulting until I could walk out my room and into dream land. For inducing, I repeat a small mantra and do a lot of visualizing, I am a very visual person with a very active imagination. However, I also have natural SP spells (began about 5 years ago) and when I go into SP ( now that I know I can LD) I go with it and always WILD. I'd say I get SP once a month. Again though, this is induction, which takes an unnatural effort. For the record, I experience numerous LD's before I knew what they were. Mainly due to lazy sleeping patterns when I was at University. I also had great dream awareness as a child (which I suspect most people do too). I can remember gradually learning to fly in subsequent dreams, initially by making myself trip and take off, then by jumping off buildings until I could just fly by wanting to. Even now, when ever I fly I almost always become lucid. But I couldn't say this makes me a natural. Not convinced by shifts definition, but it is worth defining, because its something we read regularly on the board. To be honest I'm often suspicious of those compelled to proclaim themselves "naturals" anyway. Certainly I'd suggest either trolling and/or insecurity is a big motivating factor on a fair proportion of those. I think that using induction techniques, and dream journals will usually end up causing spontaneous Lucids (DILDS). The general heightened awareness of your dreaming state makes it somewhat inevitable. In my mind, I'd say that if with no inductions, no drugs, no mantras, no journals, no efforts to recall dreams etc you still spontaneously have regular lucid dreams, then you're a natural.

[moonshine]

Dreamjournals don't mean squat. If you keep a dream journal, do nothing else, and are becoming lucid like 5+ times a month, yes I would consider that a natural. For the sake of my question being answered, these are the criteria I've already established. When I say 'simplicity' I mean simply gathering some interesting information rather than starting yet another meaningless debate on each individual's definition of a natural. Not sure I would agree. Keeping a dream journal means you're focussing on your dreams enough to recall them every morning. Keeping a dream journal is regarded as an essential part of achieving lucid dreaming. It seems to me that achieving this kind of focus will make experiencing a lucid somewhat inevitable. I just don't see how it could realistically be considered effortless. And please, don't talk about empaths on here. We have that nonsense beyond dreaming section for a reason. And private messages. I'm presuming your refering to my tounge in cheek comment as to whether the Empath is a doggy mind reader. This, for the record, was sarcasm.

[Shift]

As I've already stated, please stop spamming my post. <- exists for a reason.

[moonshine]

In the end, we are all talking about the same thing. A natural is a person who can get lucid without putting port an effort. If you read my post again, that is what happened to me. Once I was "aware" of WILD, I had one. My other experiences have also happened without me trying i.e. during my work week when suddenly I find myself in the midst of a SPONTANEOUS WILD. SP is a NATURALLY occurring thing, so by getting it naturally and LDing from it, that would be a natural attribute. I too find myself having spontaneous lucids. I credit this the the experience and effort I put in else where. As I said, when you become highly attuned to the lucid experience, they are always occasionaly going to happen when your not particularly trying hard. Which doesn't mean you're not putting a lot of effort at other times. Also, we are discussing why some people can put forth a huge effort and get nothing, while others put forth somewhat of an effort and get a ton of LDs. I don't see your point in creating a new definition, or claiming you are "weary" of those who call themselves naturals. Answer the questions Shift put in the beginning and we can see where you stand. I don't see why I shouldn't refer to previous discussions on "naturals". Yes some people are better at achieving lucidity than others. But this can be defined in other ways that natural or non natural I'm sure. FYI - I rarely do RC's, I only keep a lucid dream journal and write it in once I have already had the lucid. I don't use any lucid machines, beats, alarms..... I get a LD without effort once every couple weeks.... when putting in the conscious effort (weekends) I will LD every time But you do describe yourself using the MILD mantra, and visualisation. Which any way you look at it is induction technique.

[moonshine]

I am too as long as you use to talk about it. I've already laid out the criteria for this thread, and if you aren't going to simply post your own responses by those definitions then feel free to start one with your own brand new shiny criteria. All other discussion should be kept to a different thread. Shift, my posts are not off topic. Your own criteria defines a "natural" as someone who, amongst other criteria, becomes lucid without "putting in conscious effort or using induction techniques". The discussion has been whether keeping dream diaries and/or regularly attempting MILDS, WILDS qualifies as "no conscious effort". As stated IMO doing either will inevitably result in DILDs. As to your second criteria, "and/or had a lucid before knowing what they were" this makes matters somewhat less clear. For example someone could have 1 lucid dream in 20 years prior to discovering Lucid Dreams and still consider themselves a "natural." I suspect a majority of posters qualify.

[Shift]

Since moonshine himself is incapable of doing so, would a mod or DG please split him off his own thread?

[no-Name]

If you'd like me to change the title of this thread, please feel free to request a name. ^__^ Aye aye, Captain. Splitt thread~

[moonshine]

Please Change Thread Title to "Discussion of Shifts "Natural" lucid dreamer Criteria". As Shift well knows aside from a single sarcastic reference to feeling Dogs Emotions I was in no way discussing Empathy, which, for the record I believe is Beyond Dreaming BS. If someone is seeking to define crucial criteria for certain terminology, I see nothing wrong with testing that criteria.

[BigFan]

Not sure I would agree. Keeping a dream journal means you're focussing on your dreams enough to recall them every morning. Keeping a dream journal is regarded as an essential part of achieving lucid dreaming. It seems to me that achieving this kind of focus will make experiencing a lucid somewhat inevitable. I just don't see how it could realistically be considered effortless. I have to agree with moonshine on this one. Keeping a dream journal and trying to remember dreams means that you are focusing on dreams which should help in increasing your chances to become lucid. Personally, I think a natural is one who becomes lucid like that, as in he doesn't think about being lucid during the day, he keeps no dream journals, takes no drugs, lucid aids, etc.... because, all those things can contribute to having a lucid dream

[SnakeCharmer]

Personally, I think a natural is one who becomes lucid like that, as in he doesn't think about being lucid during the day, he keeps no dream journals, takes no drugs, lucid aids, etc.... because, all those things can contribute to having a lucid dream By this definition naturals would be only those people that don't remember being lucid.

[BigFan]

By this definition naturals would be only those people that don't remember being lucid. I meant that they don't go through the day thinking about wanting to become lucid at night, it just happens that they become lucid. Hopefully this is more clear

[SnakeCharmer]

I meant that they don't go through the day thinking about wanting to become lucid at night, it just happens that they become lucid. Hopefully this is more clear If he/she doesn't spend time thinking about lucid dreaming and researching it, he/she is probably not a member of Dream Views. So, this definition is not very useful.

[BigFan]

If he/she doesn't spend time thinking about lucid dreaming and researching it, he/she is probably not a member of Dream Views. So, this definition is not very useful. You could still be a member but not necessary research the subject if you already know about what it is and the induction techniques

[Mzzkc]

I didn't post in Shift's thread because I don't consider myself a natural. Sure, I don't keep a DJ, don't do RCs outside of dreams, or really do anything most people have to do in order to have LDs. Thinking about it, and wanting it to happen, seems to be enough for me. When I have strings of LDs, they're usually pretty long, but at the same time staggered. My highest LD count in a single week, so far, is 12. However, I did not have an LD every night that week (the highest I've gotten, in that regard, is 5 nights, of LDing, in a single week). After that peak, I had a pretty bad dry spell that lasted almost two months. During that dry spell, I think I had only one or two LDs. I attribute all this solely to the fact that my recall abilities are ridiculous. I don't just mean dream recall; I mean recall as it pertains to daily life. In the entirety of my lower-level education, I have not needed to take notes or study for anything. Even now, in college the only 'studying' I really need to do is practice problems for Calc and whatnot. I have other examples too, but I hate opening that can of worms. In the end, I was born with the ability to remember things incredibly well. I only started having true lucid dreams after reading a tremendous amount of text on the subject. Sure, I had flown, used telekinesis and done some other stuff in my dreams as a kid, but I never had a genuine lucid that I can recall (and I can remember quite a few dreams from my childhood, thank you very much). So, am I naturally good at remembering things? Yes. Am I a natural at Lucid Dreaming? No. Use my testimony as you will.

[guitarboy]

I don't see why I shouldn't refer to previous discussions on "naturals". Yes some people are better at achieving lucidity than others. But this can be defined in other ways that natural or non natural I'm sure. i have at least 3 lucid dreams with mild recall a night without any effort at all. What would this be called?

[Mzzkc]

i have at least 3 lucid dreams with mild recall a night without any effort at all. What would this be called? In my book, if you have at least one LD each and every single night with no effort, you are a natural.

[moonshine]

In my book, if you have at least one LD each and every single night with no effort, you are a natural. Can't think anyone would disagree. Provided self proclaimed naturals are telling the truth of course.