Ego Dissolution

I've read about ego-dissolution as the effects of nearly overdosing on LSD... and I've also heard that it could be achieved through hours and hours of meditation. I have just been trying to research this more on the internet, but I found that there's barely anything about it... or at least under the name of "ego dissolution"... does it have another title?

Anyway, does anyone here know much about this subject? I'd love to learn more. When they say "countless hours" of meditation for it to occur, do they mean countless hours overall? or countless hours at ONE time. For example sitting there for 20 hours (+) meditating or something (completely random guess, I havne't the slightlest clue about how long it would take). Could this be considered "enlightenment", or that something completely different?

Also what happens during ego dissolution, I know you lose the feeling of self and you look at things objectively, but what happens afterwards. Has anything changed aside from a new experience? Or do you continue to look at the world through this shattered view. What happens to your memories as well? It couldn't suddenly just wipe all memories clear of your mind, so what does it do? How does it work scientifically, and how do old memories of self and this new broken self interact?

That's quite a few questions up there. Feel free to say whatever you know, or even link me to a place where I could read more about this. All my searches have resulted in how this is achieved through drugs - I'm curious more about the meditation one.

[Edit: I know that after ego dissolution, you apparently refabricate this new sense of self... Well my question is, what if you experience things in the wrong way, what if you get confused while you're all "broken", and look at things in a twisted manor. Is it possible to refabricate your self with false views, and pretty much end up insane?]

Cheers,
Dylan

It has to do with self knowledge. That you constantly have to be aware of your feelings and thougts. When you can distinguish a feeling from another just like a tree from a bench you can say something like "delete" or whatever you want to say to get rid of it. Think its sort of the same when meditating. Your trying to not getting involved in yourself, but objectively looking at yourself. And then you can catch yourselfs(egos) in theyr act. I took this course on Mystical Web. At the time i thought it was both great and fun. But now its just to old fashioned and mystical for me. But if you look between the lines so to say and convert what you read to the year 2004 there is pretty much good reading there on differnt estoric topics. If you want i can send you the whole course somehow.

But i also have a pretty good link here to, that speaks about egos: http://www.deoxy.org/egofalse.htm
Deffintly worth reading.

Thanks Jammy, I just printed that webpage out (10 pages, not so bad). What was that mystical course you are talking about though? What was its goal?

I know what you mean by all that mystical stuff sometimes being hard to take seriously... but I never really looked at it that way - reading between the lines. I'll start doing that! It's not that I'm not open minded, I like to think I am at least... but perhaps I'm not open minded, and I merely look at new ideas and acknowledge them instead of truly understanding. That's not accepting, that's merely being tolerant... I guess that is that sense of ego showing up again. Can anyone be truly open minded?

I had another question. Is ego dissolution always such a horrible and frightening experience? When I read about the ones that were achieved through the use of LSD, they were described as being horribly terrifying where you experience extreme panick attacks. Do you know if this is the case with the meditative approach as well?

Cheers,
Dylan

The goal was to "enlighten" people with estoric information. Much like a religion, my words not theyrs. The subjects cover interesting information about astral projection techniques, self knowledge and estoric old teaching. http://www.mysticweb.org/ the course is over maaaaany weeks.

Yeah i know what you mean by just acknowledging instead of understanding. And is truly what i did during that course. All theory and no action... I maybe know how a airplane work, but i could never fly it.

Ive never heard of ego dissolution in that way. The impression ive got of ego dissolution is just the watch and kill type. To free some mental space for more clearity and freedom. Just like if your aware of your thoughts, feelings you could pin point one and get rid of it. After some time the ego would get smaller and smaller. Without any terrible bi effects :).

I dont practice it now. But it lies something in it. Ive heard about it in modern psycoligy, more what im into. But there is offcourse more than one way to dissolve. One could even dissolve while being lucid, something im going to try. But in the course one had to pray with mantras and stuff to ones holy mother! So you probably see what i mean. Its old stuff but if one convert it one could find it usefull.

Dylan, I have never experienced this, but have witnessed it first hand. When I was younger a friend of mine took a large quantity of LSD and had an ego dissolution. Basically, in his mind, he turned into Jesus. He removed his clothes and donned a sheet over his body like a tunic, and walked around barefoot professing he was Jesus. He would tell people "follow me and I will take you to heaven....", and you could see this wild look in his eyes; it was pretty plain to see he was not himself. The next day he got taken away and checked into a mental health clinic while he detoxed. I think he was up all night walking around, and the police picked him up. As far as I remeber he was a shell of the guy that we knew, and trying to key him in to who he was did not ring any bells. It was like he had a total disconnect with his memories. Its hard to tell watching what happened to him to know if he did remember and was just playing the hallucinations or if he really lost his connection with his id. He was gone for weeks before he was released and was never really the same (his speech was effected, he was much more violent/angry, and his perception of things was unstable). I doubt that this was some type of scary experience for him at the time, but I can tell you it was scary for all of his friends watching him dissolve. That night it seemed like he had a bad trip, but later when we realized that he was in the mental hospital is when the reality of the issue set in. Not till later did I learn what this ego dissolution was and connect it with what happened to him.

Hhmm.. ok that sounds really upsetting. I'm sorry to hear about your friend... When did this happen, and how is he doing now? Do you still talk to him?

His experience sounds a bit different than what I'm talking about, I think. I mean, it's the same in some senses, like he was detatched from his self, but what I meant was being detached from your self where you can actually get an objective view of yourself, your thoughts, and the world around you.. not so much actually going insane. And there was actual damage done to his brain, and I don't think there's brain damage done through achieving this with meditation... :? unless there is? I wonder if you could cause yourself to go insane by meditating for long enough.

Take it easy,
Dylan

This happened about 7 or 8 years ago. Honestly after that event happened, I did not really hang around him as much and we grew apart. Not sure what he is doing now.....

I guess my interpretation of ego is with a slightly layered approach. When I think ego I beleive it can be divided into 3 parts, the ego, the super-ego and the id (unctrollable self). The very first one, the ego, is the core of a person, their identity, IMO. So when I think ego-dissolution, I am thinking of the complete disconnect with your very core, ones very identity. I am interpreting what you are desiring to attain in ego-dissolution retains ego, but clears out the super-ego and id components so that you are open to a new venues of logic and thought. More of a breaking the shackles of your current state of mind.

Sorry if I muddied the waters a bit with my first post. :cry:

I think that using a drug overdose to attempt to alter perception in a positive manner is a shortcut through the hard work and time that must be put into the same goal via meditation. I had a music instructor that told me whenever I try to use short cuts in my learning, I could get burned. Drugs are bad, mmmkay? :D :mrgreen: :D

This is what monks and those dudes do right? Im kinda ignorant about names and stuff but the dudes in India who meditate for days on end I think they are doing this. Ive had experiences on LSD and mushrooms that have changed my outlook on myself and the world but unless you are ready for it, it can be quite scary.

I dont know if it has to do with what you are talking about but Ive gotten to a point before where I thought I was a ghost, it sounds dumb and druggy and all but it really helped change my perception of reality. I have a feeling that to really understand reality and all, one has to totally dedicate themselves to some kind of truth seeking, so much of what 'new age' people talk about always seems to be just more excuses like religion. ugh, I just ramble and can't express myself anyways.

No actually, what you just described sounds about right. Apparently it can even be scary when it's done through meditation and when you're "ready" for it. What you just told me reminded me of this. Is it about the same?

Dylan

My friend told me about this I think... about a guy he met when he went to camp. The guy decided he was going to meditate for any entire 24 hours. When he reached the later hours he said that there was this crazy evil in himself it felt like he was killing all these peoples souls... ect.

http://deoxy.org/l_impgui.htm

Psychadelics can have extremely useful qualities AS LONG AS you use them under the right conditions and have a serious mindset about transcending the boundaries of current conception of reality. The number one potentiality of the use of LSD is that with a large enough dose, one can reprogram the ego and rid oneself of all the mistakes in the initial programming (upbringing) of the brain. I plan to take a modest dose when I get the chance, alone.

(Taking any drug is a risk. I am willing to accept the risks because I can't take my life up to this point. My behavioral traits cause me to go in a vicious cycle which leads me to be constantly depressed.)

I guess you do what you're going to do. I myself am slightly opposed to the use of these drugs for the reprogramming process, it just seems too unnatural... you know? This is a big process, maybe its best to not be rushed like this. But at the same time, I can totally see why you'd want to do it this way. I haven't fully read that link you posted, I scanned some of it, and it seems to be pretty reasonable to me (I will read the rest later when I have the time, for it does interest me), that is at least you are doing this with a positive intention. I would really advise that you do a fair bit of research on LSD beforehand though. You want to know the drug inside and out, the dangers, doses, potencies, etc. There is a risk, yes, but you can pretty much eliminate it with the proper planning. LSD is different from ecstacy, which is quite an unpredictable drug.

My question though is, let's say you figure out an amount that is right for you... would this actually be enough to experience ego dissolution? What if the dose to be able to reach ego dissolution is at a level bordering very closely, or even overlapping into the "overdose range".... Would you still go through with this?

Another question. Let's say it works and you manage to get ego dissolution. I've read that it's not always a one time thing, and people that have experienced it, often try to experience it again, to try to make it more permanent... agian and again. This could create an addiction and a reliance on the drug. That is why I would suggest a more gradual process, as opposed to something so sudden. But then again, something sudden might just be the "jolt" that awakens you. I really don't know enough about this to give you the best advice. But like I said before, your intention is a good one at least, and I assume you will make well thought out decisions.

Do tell me more, and keep me informed on how it works out though. I'm quite interested.

Take it easy and be careful,
Dylan

Last year i had an LSD overdose
And i knew close to nothing about LSD
And it was my first time using it
And it was a life changing experience, no doubt about it
I took two swedish LSD drops in the beach, with a dear friend. I had experience with other drugs (marihuana, datura) so i was careless. I was expecting to see things, to hear things, and so
But i wasn't at all prepared for what i later realized was the real psychedelic experience. It started joyfully, i saw the strings of the hammock shining, the branches of the hut waving at me. I drank a coconut and it all started to get worse. I felt (first of all) trapped in eternity, a hopeless encagement with no way out. Eternal return, you know what i mean? After that, it only got worse. I began looking at the sand and i saw in each grain the past moment. I felt like if i had entered a door which was now lost in the myriads of doors, i felt like if all my life was just a preparation for that pure awakening moment. I began yelling "Now i understand! now i understand" as i thought i understood the meaning of the universe, and i felt it was like just a big, not funny cosmical joke. A lie. I thought as if i had lived through rthis an infinite number of times and each time i forgot what happened. I began to speak in languages, saying "siempre se me olvida, siempre se me olvida" Which is a game word with no translation, it can be translated as "i always forget" and as "i forget the whole/eternity"
Then i lost myself. I began seeing fractals in the sea. The terrifying fear (you can't imagine any fear worse than the fear of being nothing at all) gave birth to a sense of amazement, and then i began calming myself. I realized about the oneness of the universe. I (well, it wasnt just "I" at that time) began running, feeling one, one and only one, a part of the whole, a part of the cosmic joke. I saw my beloved friend lying in a hammock, and as a woman, i felt like if she was the female side of the universe and i was the male one. But we also were only one thing, like a human ying-yang. I said to her " sorry, i know only we exist, but i have to return to where i left, as i need to feel my life again. We'll see when its time, you know we always do. Siempre se me olvida".
Then i fell in the sand, feeling each grain as a universe, feeling them merging with me. And the holy moment showed itself. I forgot everything. I was everything. It felt so good, like a mystical climax. Hours ago i woke up. I felt as if i had been asleep my whole life, i even remembered in an instant my whole life, my birth, my childhood, my happy moments, etc.
Of course, rebuilding my ego after that is a task im still performing. I actually spent the following six months in a depression, as the reality i was used to was now shattered, my sense of self completly changed. I stopped doing drugs and now im rediscovering happiness. Rediscovering my own life. Knowing myself

There were times when i felt i was going insane. LOTS of times. I thought (as many LSD users) i was dead. A ghost. I thought i was not really me. I thought i was impersonating someone. But this thoughts are now mostly gone. The last year has been the most intense year in my whole life. But hey, i managed to survive it (i hope), and now im a hundred times more humble, and a hundred times a better person. The LSD showed me (with the precious help from my beloved friend) many of my flaws, and gave me and opportunity to be a better person. But oh, what a cost. Oh, the fear i have felt. Oh, my mind

Sorry, i think i overdid it :oops:

Anyway, ego loss and LSD overdosing aint a game. I was lucky, and i thank the universe for giving me the chance to return to my life

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Originally posted by Dylan+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dylan)</div>

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I myself am slightly opposed to the use of these drugs for the reprogramming process, it just seems too unnatural... you know? [/b]

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Personally, I agree with you. However, I do not debate that if someone wants to try this for themselves it may work. I beleive if you are looking for truth, you will find it. Like you said Dylan, just be safe.......


<!--QuoteBegin-Dylan
I've read that it's not always a one time thing, and people that have experienced it, often try to experience it again, to try to make it more permanent... agian and again. This could create an addiction and a reliance on the drug.

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For users that dose themselves with enough LSD to get to that point for the implicit purpose of this dissolution, there is that component of fear. My personal experiences on LSD were not entirely positive and jovial and I wont ever touch it again. I think that fear can act as brakes for the user. Start small and test the waters, get your feet wet before you just dive in. Also, be sure that your 'hits' are of the same proportions. Nothing worse than taking 1 hit, and deciding to up the dose and taking 3 hits and going straight to the edge of oblivion.

Last thing from me on this topic, LSD was the worst drug I ever took, and I have taken them all. It scared the hell out of me because it showed me a few things about myself. I did not dissolve, but my core was shaken up a bit. My life changed after that point, but I do not attribute this change to a bad trip. The experience comes down to the current state of mind of the user (if it is already mixed up - dont go OD'ing a psychedelic). I tripped with the intention of getting high and having fun and was thrown into hell. People that trip with the intention of learning may have a different experience, since you may have more preparation for what may come, but like Regalecus and Dylan have said, LSD is not like pot, you really could break yourself and never come back, so BE CAREFUL! I would shoot for meditation before I tried to trip to grow, learn, whatever.

hell yeah.
LSD aint a joke, its one of the strongest psychotropic substances known to man, and dissolving aint fun, nor rebuilding is.
The ego is a very serious bussines and anything related to it is also very serious. Never take this lightly

Nice replies everyone. It's really interesting hearing your guys' thoughts and experiences with this.

I just read that link that Jammy posted. It's a wonderful read (despite the clear fact that english was not the author's primary language, and it begins to fall appart near the end.). While reading, however, some big questions about the nature of 'self' and the 'ego' arised. I'll number them for clarity in both your reading of them, and your response to them (if you choose to respond that is).
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1. Happiness. Let's say you lose the ego. You are taking away societies views of misery... does this mean that no misery itself will exist? And IF SO (because it does seem like that's what Osho implies: indiference)- wouldn't you be taking away happiness as well? excitement? pleasure altogether? These things won't mean nearly as much to you as they would if you had that "want", and they fill it with that feeling of "success". They will also be devalued because they won't have misery to contrast them. How can you feel any pleasure, any happiness, if you do not feel sadness as well? If there is ANY inclination of pleasure from the state that you were previously at, then removing whatever caused that would cause a declination. If there are any levels, any changes in feelings or emotions at all, then it is impossible, in that sense, that if you can feel happiness to not be able to feel lower than that... and even feel sadness. You would just stay the same always. You would be indifferent. Right?

2. Humor. Would humor exist? We are taught what is funny and what isn't. This is very noticeable across different cultures, whos senses of humor actually vary quite a bit. Since we learned humor by observing, would destruction of the ego result in destruction of humor altogether? What IS humor? Are there universal things that we just simply find humorous? Look at a baby for example... they laugh at a parent when they make silly faces and noises. Then again, is that actually humor? Or is that merely pleasure arising from the attention that they are getting. And the pleasure and "good feelings" cause their emotions to swell up, resulting in them laughing?

3. Care and compassion, Apprection, Love, and Loss. Would we feel any of these things? Let's say someone you love dies, a lack of an ego would result in complete indifference. The ego creates a dependance a reliance on that person... ok, that's simple enough. And if you lose them, you would be completely shattered, you would feel bad... yes I understand that as well. But without the ego, I just wouldn't give a shit about anyone else? I wouldn't care if my family or friends died? In a sense, no. You wouldn't care because if you drop all wants and attachments to everything, you'd be indifferent. But I just can't stand the idea of not caring at all. This is understandable, however, because of course I'm looking at this through my ego, and it clashes with it... Obviously any clashing with the ego will result in unpleasant feelings. In order to feel any "good" emotions towards someone, a lack of that person would need to result in a lowering of your level of your feelings.

4. Pleasure and discomfort do exist without the ego... for example you put a lamp over a cat, and it could roll around, enjoying the heat. If you take it away, it might try to follow the lamp. These are physical feelings however. Can animals feel mental pleasure? Let's say that they can't for now (I know some people will argue against this, but for the sake of this question just go with it.). If mental pleasure for us is the idea of fullfilling a desire, then, removing the desire would result in a complete lack of mental pleasure like this. Wouldn't this just mean that we are just like animals? Isn't the ego what makes us human? Passion, excitement, inspiration, all of those things. As well as pain, and sadness. You can't have one without the other. And to get rid of them all would just turn us into zombies. Sure we'd still be conscious, and aware of everything that happens around us. But we wouldn't care about any of it.

5. This question is more of a slight contradiction (at least I see it as one, and this is where I might need correcting) that I found in the writing.

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Originally posted by The Author
When the ego is dropped, you will notice it gone, and you will realize that, and laugh at the sillyness.

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Okay... this doesn't seem right to me. I'd assume it would be different: you would just see it, you would be aware of it, and that is all.. nothing more. To look upon it as being silly is a trait of the ego! Nothing is actually SILLY. "Silly" isn't a property that something can hold. It is completely fabricated by our minds, by our egos. You make it so by thinking that it is.

6. This is just an idea. All of these things I mentioned are things that I think would be lacking without an ego. We do NEED things though... right? these societal views DID have to come from somewhere (evolving and spawning from basic human instincts and needs, of course). A lot of these things reflect human nature themselves, and are there form the start (or would they be?). Perhaps by destroying the ego, we are not actually destroying the basic emotional needs, perhaps we are destroying the evolved and built up version of them, that has been built up over time. Or no... this confuses me, because this conflicts with what I've read. Aah! So confused!

7. Wouldnt the desire to get rid of your ego, be an act of the ego itself?
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Feel free to pick and choose questions to answer, I do realize that there are quite a few of them. Also, keep in mind that these are not arguments, they really are JUST questions - I'm trying to understand this better. Regardless of whether you know anything "for certain", just share your views. I'm sure that a back and forth sharing of ideas could help us all better understand this... and better understand ourselves.

Cheers,
Dylan

im afraid there is no way to answer this questions. Of course, one could always construct a logical structure in an attempt to answer. Regrettably, ego loss is a thing which cant be explained. It can only be experienced

Well it can be explained in theory, can't it? I mean, by principal, by definition. I'm just wondering if my understanding of "ego" is completely false or not. I'm trying to figure out if ego dissolution is something I would ever want to strive towards. Is it not permanent? Is it the breaking down and then rebuilding? Or are you permanently left without an ego? Or are there different cases? I really wish there was more to read about this somewhere.

Dylan

ego loss is a moment. A moment when you fully understand your role, the part of the universe which you are. Not with words, not with images. You just know it. You feel it, its no longer you, its universe, youy are a part of a whole. When you REALLY get that, the ego loss is done.
Thta moment can be the rest of your life, and you'll be like that jesus guy (the friend oine, not the historical) or you can make that moment a passed eternity. And rebuild. I dont know how i managed to hang on to my reality, after such a bliss, but somehow something pulled me, as if i wasnt ready yet. Well, i hope i didnt confused it even more

IMO,

You're ego is not your true self. It is the person your self creates to deal with life and interact with other beings. Someone who has never experienced ego loss has been building and building this fake persona on top of their true self their entire life, driving the true self further away.

To be able to experience your true self again is a life changing experience. Nobody is the same after a large hallucinogenic dose. The first time is usually frightening, as your self-serving ego is fighting to remain in control. Once you work through this, though, ego loss is a greater feeling than anything imaginable.

I am surprised, however, that all the talk has been about LSD, which I would agree with previous posts as being unnatural. But, what about mushrooms and DMT-containing plants that people have been using for thousands of years? Once you have experienced the ecstasy of ego loss, you just know in your heart that this was the basis of all religions. If you have a bible, read Exodus 16:14. It describes the "Bread of the Lord" as what could only be mushrooms - appearing overnight, small, round, white, wilting in the sun, preserved in honey.

Think about it - either ancient people never injested these things (unlikely), or these are what are referred to as "sacraments," bringing about a connection to God.

Comments or contradictions are welcome.

Ego dissolution is like dragon-slaying: the first thing you must do is find a dragon.

That's my take.

I sorta agree with human.
The ego is something like a mask which covers your true connection with the surrounds, your true self. But if we were to stay true, we would probably all become ascetics and stuff, searching for that religious xpereience, leaving aside the other aspects of our life, equally important each one of them.
The bliss of dissolving the ego, and then rebuilding it in a better fashion is an experience one should do, in important moments of their life. Not just intending to trip, or to have fun. Its, like human said, a sacrament, a re-union with the (w)holy part of our life.

And i didnt talked about teonanacatl (the sacred name for mushrooms in ancient mexico, which means gods' flesh) because i think their revelations are even more complex than the acid ones, as they have a living essence, unlike the acid, thus, i dont feel ready for that type of communion :P