Help! Are lucid dreams acts of supreme egotism or doors that lead to spiritual enlightment?

Hi all. I had a conversation with a friend last night that left me wondering and I was hoping to get your input on it.

My friend has been a practicing Buddhist for years and she expressed her opinion that lucid dreaming could be a harmful activity for anyone seeking spiritual enlightenment.

Her position was this: Since lucid dreaming is exploration in the realm of the self it encourages the practitioner to focus on all the selfish desires and motivations that stand in the way of true enlightmentment.

She says that enlightenment only comes when we learn how to silence the jabbering voices in our mind and look beyond our own egos to the higher reality that exists in and around and beyond this realm.

I argued that lucid dreaming can be a useful tool because it allows us to open doors in our consciousness, wash away the mental muck in which we often get mired in our dreams and train ourselves to be more aware and more fully exist in the moment -- something that Buddhism is really big on.

But she said that no matter how many doorways you open in your consciousness, you're still trapped there -- in your consciousness -- and that will force you to take constant detours that will never let you "out of the box" to experience true Enlightenment.

... What do you all think? Can lucid dreaming lead to greater spiritual awareness -- or is it only good for cheap thrills like flying and having sex with movie stars? :eek::eek::eek:

Apparently she has missed the strong link between Buddhism and lucid dreaming, encourage her to research it.

There is necessarily no connection between the ego and lucid dreaming, it depends on your intent.

Lucid dreaming is exploration of your inner self, which can give opportunities for lessons learned or spirtitual growth.

I do not understand her argument about how we are trapped in our consciousness, consciousness is fundemental, everything else is virtual (parallels with buddhist concept of illusion), does she oppose consciousness, as true enlightment is unconsciousness?


Threads of truth runs in all religions, but must is twisted truth or nonsense, the same with Buddhism. As she says "detours that will never let you "out of the box"" can be said about religion too, beliefs traps are everywhere, especially serving for the ego.

Tell her to to experience lucid dreaming before she judge it, otherwise she is preconceived. She can research about dreaming and lucid dreaming and its relation to Buddhism, Dream Yoga can be her first research.

Further explanation may be needed for the concept of ego, it is not an easy task to do, I am out of time for now :)

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Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

Apparently she has missed the strong link between Buddhism and lucid dreaming, encourage her to research it.

There is necessarily no connection between the ego and lucid dreaming, it depends on your intent.

Lucid dreaming is exploration of your inner self, which can give opportunities for lessons learned or spirtitual growth.

I do not understand her argument about how we are trapped in our consciousness, consciousness is fundemental, everything else is virtual (parallels with buddhist concept of illusion), does she oppose consciousness, as true enlightment is unconsciousness?


Threads of truth runs in all religions, but must is twisted truth or nonsense, the same with buddhism. As she says "detours that will never let you "out of the box"" can be said about religion too, beliefs traps are everywhere, especially serving for the ego.

Tell her to to experience lucid dreaming before she judge it, otherwise she is preconceived. She can research about lucid dreaming and its relation to dreaming or lucid dreaming, Dream Yoga can be her first research.

Further explanation may be needed for the concept of ego, it is not an easy task to do, I am out of time for now :)

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All of this is gold. I'd like to add that its not really the act itself one should consider, but how one uses it. It can be used to expand or escape, as is the case with many other things. As stated above it is a valuable exploration of your inner self, which can give you much insight into the processes of your ego you wouldn't be able to have while awake. Others may act completely blind to this fact and use it for more narcissistic or self-centered purposes.

You should both read up on Dream Yoga. I've been looking into "Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep", its really quite fascinating. The beliefs described in there are unlike anything I've heard before. It also provides some rather interesting ideas on how to lucid dream proficiently by harnessing mindfulness techniques during waking life.

yeah , agree with of both you!
tell her to read "the tibetan yogas of dream and sleep" and she will understand the interesting relation between Lucid Dream, and Buddhism

bye !

fd

Thank you for your thoughtful responses -- I feel much better now!

I think when my friend was talking about being trapped in one's consciousness she meant a person's individual consciousness, separate and closed off from the consciousness that informs the rest of the universe.

... At least, that's what I think she meant. Her argument was sometimes confusing to me and I wasn't sure whether that was because *I* was confused or because she was.

After I wrote my original post I did some research to see if I could find anything I could show to her to prove that lucid dreaming wasn't antithetical to Buddhist spiritual pursuits and I found some awesome stuff.

I posted some links about Buddhism and lucid dreaming on my blog. I'm sure many of you are familiar with them already, but if you're interested, please feel free to check them out.

And if you know of any other resources on Buddhism and lucid dreaming, I'd love to hear about them! Next time I see my friend, I think our conversation will go very differently. ;-P

I posted something similar to what your friend is talking about. My concerns are similar to hers.
Buddhism stems from Hinduism and then aestheticism (started from India with the Vedas)--the notion that through detaching yourself one can see the true nature of the world, themselves, etc--hence Nibbāna.

A special transmission outside the scriptures; (教外別傳)
No dependence upon words and letters; (不立文字)
Direct pointing to the human mind; (直指人心)
Seeing into one's own nature and attaining Buddhahood. (見性成佛)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

I do not understand her argument about how we are trapped in our consciousness, consciousness is fundemental, everything else is virtual (parallels with buddhist concept of illusion), does she oppose consciousness, as true enlightment is unconsciousness?

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From a psychological standpoint, she is talking about a certain mental state that people are trapped in--addicted to thoughts, pleasures, etc (dukku). Consciousness to me meant to be conscious--aware. On one level, your right, being aware is universal and there is nothing to be worked for. But on another level, you need to strengthen that awareness because even though it can never go away, it can be diminished. But strengthening means nothing because awareness is universal and there is nothing to strengthen. If anything, all effort prevents you being here, NOW, or aware. So it isn’t really meant to be philosophical but rather an innate progression towards “shifting your brain” to experience the world differently.

In Zen they talk about having an "empty mind" (Śūnyatā) and through being empty you live in direct experience with the world. Everything just becomes "as it is" and each action becomes an action onto itself (even goals become actions onto themselves, etc) to be experienced fully. Nothing more, nothing less. Turn to Nāgārjuna or Prajñāpāramitā Hṛdaya (Heart Sutra) for more info.

I don't know much about Dream Yoga though...