Frequent SP, but not LD.

Hi everyone,

I've been a lurker of these forums for some time now. It is quite interesting to read of others' experiences. This will be my first post here and I'd just like to ask a few questions that I haven't been able to resolve. Thanks for the site!

This first post of mine will be longer than subsequent posts, no doubt, since I need to introduce myself and explain.

Until around 4 years ago, I had never experienced anything strange in my life in terms of lucid dreams, sleep paralysis, or anything else like that. I was a confimed antheist all my life. That is, until I had my first episode of sleep paralysis. Now that I know that there is a term for what I went through, and that it is fairly typical for first timers, I'm not freaked-out over it. However, until I knew about sleep paralysis I never told anyone for around 2 years because of how scary it all was and that they might think I was crazy.

The first SP was when I was home in my basement alone one night. I woke up for some reason and felt that there was someone in the room with me, and I knew the general direction of where they were. I felt engulfed in an evil presence. My heart was racing so fast and I thought I was near death. I did my best to fake being asleep. Then opened my eyes a little, looked towards my toes and could see a black mist residing in the open doorway to my furnace room. I then knew that the black mist was the evil entity. It seemed fully conscious and intent on harming me. I closed my eyes again and faked being a sleep. It was so hard to do. After a few seconds I felt the thing jump on my chest! At that point I managed to get out of bed and run up the stairs. All of sudden though, I was back in my bed! So I ran up the stairs again, exactly as before. It was extreme Deja Vu. I never went back downstairs for a long time. Turned on all the lights in the house, had every T.V and radio playing. For some reason I just felt that it would help keep the thing from me.

That last paragraph is told using words as how I made sense of the experience. When I remember what happend, that is what comes to mind, however, I now know that it is attributed to SP with hallucinations. My brain was probably trying to make sense out of such a strange experience and so I saw the black mist, etc. BUT, it felt totally real, and I did see it, and did feel it jump on my chest. The brain is amazing!

So, that was my first experience with anything strange, and I wouldn't want anyone else to experience it. Words to not do these phenomena justice. I hadn't had any other thing like that until a few years later, at which point I had already learned that there was a term called Sleep Paralysis and so the next episdoes were not bothersome.

I do not do drugs, or take any medications. I believe my recurrent bouts of sleep paralysis can be attributed to my genes, as, as far I know, my mother, aunt, and uncle, all have had similar experiences. It is only after my aunt learned of mine that she admitted and told of her own scary experiences that she hadn't told anyone. She often has OBE's, and SP with the old hag. For instance, in one case she awoke and saw an old lady sitting on her chest and sucking the breath out from her lungs. Scary stuff, even when you know its only in your mind!

I am now a believer that there is more to this reality than meets the eye, and just feel that there is something good out there. It's a wondeful feeling. My late father, who was very open minded, always would say to me that I had blinders on (for horses), and that one day I would look back and laugh. Well, that day came. And now I understand what he meant.

As to my questions that I would like experienced and the kind among you to answer: Why is it that I often experience SP, and can do it any night that I wish, but can not manage to have lucid dreams?

Let me explain what SP is like for me.

There are always sounds associated with it. A few sounds are always present. One sounds like ocean waves. Another, fainter, sounds like crickets chirping. These are heard at the same time. Rarer, I will hear people talking to me, or about me. Usually the sentences are small. For instance, "Can you hear us out there?" or, "But I see you." Since I know it's in my head, it can be quite interesting, but was scary the first time. Like I said, those are rarer. I've learned that when in SP, the sounds around my sleeping environment will be heard, but the magitude of the sounds will be increased dramatically. It's as if the sound of a pin dropping can be heard, or able to listen to the TV on the lowest setting. I think that is why some people can be woken easily from minute sounds. To us, the awake, the sounds are minute, but not to the sleeping. Perhaps this is for survival.

There is also associated, and the best part!, a sensation of waves of energy coarsing through my body. It is the reason why I allow the SP to continue. It is like feeling goodbumps all over your body, and the zap of energy up your spine that people experience when awake, but intensely magnified and of much longer duration. It can last from seconds to many minutes. It feels wonderful!

As I've managed to control the onset and duration of SP, I've felt further sensations. When I feel the SP decline and about to end, I can manage to prolong it. There is really no way to describe how I do this. It's as if I just will it, and it happens. When this is done, I feel more tingling at the junction of my next and head. It then proceeds to the rest of my body and the waves of energy continue.

During SP, I am almost always fully conscious. I qualify that statement with "almost" because there have been times when I was unsure if my last SP episode was real or a dream. There definately are degrees of consciousness. Unlike just being awake, or alseep, and nothing in between.

When I prolong the SP, I try to get out of body for an OBE or just stare at my eyelids and try to have a lucid dream. I've managed to have two OBE's, but I was just flying in a black void and so didn't see anything. I've had around 3 lucid dreams, but they did not occur from my wanting them to. They just happend, and not after my being in SP.

I would like to know why I can control sleep paralysis so well, and have it so often, but not be able to control my mind so that I can have a lucid dream or OBE, etc. I've read about how others go about it, and that reaching SP is often one of the steps, so it very much baffeles me why I, myself, can not reach lucidity. I remember my dreams quite well, and can wake up and go back to the same dream I just had, but I am not lucid in them at all.

What step or thought am I not doing correctly? Can a person have SP at will, control it for long periods, but not be able to have LDs? If so, that really is a let-down. SP feels incredibly wonderful, but its not exciting after you've done it night after night. Not that I would give it up or anything! lol.

Thank for reading. Perhaps you've learned something in the process from my experiences, and can share with me. :)

Nice read, thanks for the SP bio. I enjoy reading those the most since SP is what lead me to learn about LD'ing...... :)

By definition there is a difference in sleep paralysis and lucid dreaming. 'The' Sleep paralysis is a sleeping disorder in which the subject overproduces paralytic enzymes and also wakes up during REM sleep. The subject is actually fully conscious and awake when they start picking up the sounds, the hypnagogic images and all. Lucid dreaming, on the other hand, is nothing more than dreaming while being aware that you are dreaming. To actually have a lucid dream you merely have to recognize that you are dreaming. Some of the pathology of SP and LD are similar hence why there are alot of parallel experiences between the two, yet one occurs when you are awake, and one occurs when you are asleep. That being said, and from the degree of control you expressed in your SP episodes, it sounds like you are on the doorstep of lucidity. LD'ing is all about control................

Since I do not have SP (the sleeping disorder aka pre/post-dormital paralysis) ) but have experienced it from my stints in LD's I would think that you are in conflict between your goals and what you body does. Correct me if I am wrong, but when you do exeperience an episode of SP, you are not able to fully fall back asleep? And would this be due to the noises, and your HI? If so, then I understand the conflict. I would pursue medical treatment of the sleep paralysis so that you do not autonomously wake during REM. Then work on your LD goals, because you have to be able to hit REM and dream without your body waking itself up. However, the medicine used to treat this may inhibit your ability to dream etc.............. :(

However, if you are able to fall asleep during SP and not wake back up autonomously, then that would what you should attempt to do. Ignore the HI in SP and try to fall back asleep, since that is where you have to be in order to become Lucid.

Unfortunately though, if you truely have the sleep disorder sleep paralysis, it is typical that you would wake up, start hallucinating, and then intermittantly doze off and wake back up several times, thus preventing you from fully falling back into REM in order to start your LD. :?

not much help, I am sure. Probably stuff you have already heard...... :wink:

Hi, thanks for the response!

When I experience sleep paralysis, I am able to control very little of my body. I can control my eyelids and eyes, and so I make the conscious act to keep them closed. I do this to prevent me from seeing anything disturbing such as the old hag, grim reaper, and who knows what else. So, I just see blackness when in SP. There are no visual hallucinations. As regards to the sounds, there is always the same ocean wave and crickets sounds. And rarely, words spoken to me or about me that I clearly hear. It is not my voice, it appears to come from the environment around me, that is, its not my "inner voice." Perhaps when I hear the voices, it is auditory hallucinations and the ocean sounds are just my ears being too sensitive in that state and not hallucinations.

I've never been one to sleep continuously for many hours. I always seem to wake-up every few hours, at least for a few minutes or seconds. When this happens, my brain is not in the usual waking state because I can recall every single aspect of the dream I just had and can even go back into the same dream and continue it if I want. I just wont be lucid in the dream itself. Since that happens, I wonder why I'm not able to consciously have a lucid dream. I've had around 3 LDs, and they were totally amazing. So I know it is possible for me to do so.

If I open my eyes dream sleep paralysis, I see the actual envirnoment around me, but it is very distorted in appearance at times. It is as if I am looking at everything through a fishbowl. So sizes and shapes are distorted and fuzzy at times, but I still know what they are. Do you think if I keep my eyes open and try to manipulate what I see, that is might lead me to a LD? It seems risky for me because I don't want to see something sitting on my chest, lol.

I don't think I explained my SP well enough in terms of how it works. When I have SP, I have to make a conscious effort most times to prolong it or else I will either fall asleep or just wake up normally. If I drift back off into a dream, I don't retain consciousness. I've prolonged the SP for dousens of minutes, but never comes from it. Actually, two times I've had an OBE after doing this, but that isn't what I want, but it still absolutely amazing! lol. In all my sleep paralysis and OBE's, they always take place in a blackness, devoid of all colours or shapes.

So, does this new information add hope?

I've had at least 3 LD's, so there is always hope! :)

I wouldn't call sleep paralysis itself a disorder. My understanding is that this happens to everyone when they dream - it is a safety mechanism so that we don't act out our dreams while sleeping. A disorder would be when this doesn't work - sleepwalking, or when the activation/ deactivation is not timed right, which seems to be the problem here.

Are you sure that you are awake in these situations? Your first description sounds like you had a false awakening (maybe in addition to some SP). When I WILD and go through SP and am still consious it often feels like I am still awake, but then I decide to test it out by rolling out of bed and doing an RC, sinking through the bed (an RC in itself), or floating out of bed (again, an RC in itself). Then I am in a LD that begins in my bedroom. I go downstairs, out the front door, and into a dream scene I request before opening the door.

I often have FA's (sometimes multiple while trying to WILD) and those feel even more like I am awake because of course I just "woke up." Sometimes the FA's are with SP, so I have to remember that I can just roll out of bed and do an RC, but sometimes I have experienced scary things at this moment and just try hard to wake up.

Anyway, my advice is when you feel the vibrations and SP, to roll your dream body out of bed and do an RC (for me the key moment is when my legs feel like they are starting to float out of bed). Or, if you have HI, try to passively join the dream scene. Also, you seem to concentrate really hard on the sensations of SP and prolonging them - maybe you have to let up a little on that. Also try not to be too preoccupied with the old hag showing up, or she probably will.

Hi djv,

It would be nice to chat with someone that also experiences sleep paralysis all the time.

My first experience with sleep paralysis was nothing like all of the others I have had since. There were only a few episodes of SP after the first which scared me. They involved me feeling a great pressure on my chest and my hearing one time someone talking near me to others and saying "let me kill him! lets kill him!" That really freaked me out. All my recent SP have been very pleasent. So don't take the first account of my SP to be what it is for me now.

I've been reading over what you wrote above. Since I've formed the habit of closing my eyes during SP, I'm starting to wonder if I could open them at all because I may be in a dream during some of the times I think I am in SP. I doubt it though, buts it a possibility that I will test out the next time I have SP, which may be tonight. What I see during SP, is blackness. I never have HI, and rarely hear voices or things like that. But always feel the tingly vibrations, wave of energy, and the sound of waves and crickets. I don't consider that hallucinations though.

For you personally, when you go from SP to a lucid dream, as you described, does the vibrations and sounds end? I know that when I went into my OBE directly from SP, all of the sounds and sensations ended. I assumed it would be the same for a lucid dream, but perhaps there are different types of LDs.

Can you explain, if possible, how you go about getting up out of your body and walking around?

One time, I tried for many hours to have a lucid dream. At one point I thought it didn't work and so was rolling around in my comforter. However, my light and computer were no longer on the desk by my bed and the room was cast in a greyish tone. Everything else seemed the same, but my cat wasn't around. I could feel the comforter and everything. I got excited and woke up in my bed. This time with my computer in place and the light on. It was amazing. Do you think what happened to me that time is what you normally go through?

I've read that when people wake up in their dream bedroom, that everything is dark and objects are misplaced, etc. That is exactly what I experienced.

Thanks for sharing with me. I've very eager to read your response! :)

As I said I would, I tested out the SP today. Instead of just going along with the SP, I tried to open my eyes and then get out of bed. IT WORKED! I was in my dream bedroom, dream house. I walked around it, it was amazing. I've wrote it all down in my dream journal entry for Jan 1, 2005. The year is off to a good start.

http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10781

Thank you so much for the suggestions!

Too weird... I had never even heard of LD until very recently. I decided to read up on it since I've had recurring bouts of SP for many, many years. Mine seems to differ from the norm, so I was just beginning to think it wasn't SP at all when I stumbled across this topic. Unlike the other occurences of SP (and similar to yours) that I have read about, I see nothing at all while it is occuring, just black. There are no sights, smells, or even sounds. I do get the 'energy waves' you mentioned earlier, but they don't seem pleasant or soothing to me. When I experience them, they are very scary, like a force that is trapping me, preventing me from moving. Occasionally, but not usually I get the FEELING of a hostile entity causing this paralysis, but I never have any associated visions, sounds, etc. This sense of a malicious being has become less and less frequent as time goes on. The energy waves seem to ripple up and down my body, holding it in place with an almost elastic feel to them. By that I mean that with great effort I can move any part of my body a very small distance, but the force of the 'bands' rebounds me back into place. After what seems like 10 minutes or so of struggling, the bands finally 'fall away'. Thats really the only words I have to describe it, but it isnt really adequate.... I always wake up and almost always sit up in bed after the bands fall away, usually with a loud gasp that wakes up my wife. Could this simply be normal SP where I have my eyes closed? I don't recall that I've ever attempted to open my eyes before I always assumed that they were open but there was just nothing to see. I am at least semi, if not fully lucid during these bouts, but trying to open my eyes is just something that I've never considered before.

In another (to me at least) eerie similarity, I've also had several occasions where I seem to fly through a vast black emptiness. Unlike SP, I get an extreme sense of happiness and freedom as I swoop seemingly randomly through a nothingness. These flying episodes usually seem to last for only a few minutes before I either awaken or fall back into a deeper sleep. The flying episodes are much less frequent and I haven't observed any connection between them and the SP. I'm very interested in seeing how similar our experiences are and getting some advice from the pros on these things. I've never even mentioned them to anyone before, I always just thought I was crazy or it was some weird kind of nightmare.

The flying in a blackness is exactly that I experienced. It was a spontaneous OBE. I just didn't have the typical one where you float above your body. You describe it perfectly well.

You should try to open your eyes when in SP. As regards the evil entity, I only ever met it once, the first time I had SP, and that was the last time too. I'm very glad because it scared me so much I told no one for a long time.

I'm not sure what else I can say. I'm new to this too.

Marc,

SP with the scary moments is rare for me as well - maybe happened two or three times.

Yes, when I go from SP to LD, the vibrations and sounds end, unless the sounds continue into the dream (not often though because of how I normally end up lucid - by getting out of bed). About the time the vibrations end, it feels like my legs are floating. This is the critical moment for me to know when I'm ready to enter the LD. It's hard to explain how I do it, but I just roll my dream body out of bed (kind of just feel my body spin). Sometimes I take the floating sensation in my legs and go with that 'till my whole body floats out of bed. Other times I just try to feel myself sink through the bed.

Usually it is black when I get up, or very dark (I may see a very faint light from the clock or window, but that's usually it). This is why I have to feel my way downstairs to the front door and tell myself that it will be light when I go out. Usually it stays dark except for a spot of light. I concentrate on that light and start spinning. The light then becomes a line (I'm spinning pretty damn fast) and gradually the line expands to a full scene.

Often though I have difficulties at some point from getting out of bed to the full scene forming and then I "wake up." This can happen several times. In fact, the night I wrote my above message I had about 5 FA's. On the last one for some reason I tried to grab my alarm clock. I could "see" my dream hand on the clock, but it felt like the corner of my bed and I knew I was paralyzed. I was sick of the FA's and frustrated trying to move my hand (don't know why I didn't just give up and get out of bed again) and forced myself awake.

I don't care for starting the LD in my bedroom, and have been trying some different things with some success. The latest was imagining that I was riding a bicycle down a mountain. I tried to imagine all the sensations of doing that, and it worked - I ended up lucid on a bike going downhill. It was pretty cool. The sinking used to be good because I would fall into some random, or requested dream scene. One time though while sinking the thought crossed my mind that it was like going to hell. Well, that's where I ended up and the next time as well, so I quit that for a while. Will try again soon though.

Marc-
I'm very new to this stuff and please don't take this the wrong way, but you really think that was an out of body experience? Honestly, I'm skeptical.... I always thought those were... well, hokey and new agey. I can accept the idea of lucid dreams, as they are self-contained, but I'm a skeptic when it comes to OBEs, psychism, telling the future, etc. I AM open minded, I've just never seen anything even vaguely resembling proof that these things are real. Isn't it more likely that we both just have dreams about flying? I'm certainly can't say with certainty that it wasn't an OBE, I'm just reserving judgement.

On a different note, could you please tell me how you trigger your episodes of SP? You seem to indicate you have enough control over them to initiate them and extend/shorten their duration, etc. Mine are completely random and might happen twice in a single week, or have months between them. Now that I know other people have these same experiences, they don't seem so crazy/shocking/freaky, and I'm interested in experimenting with them more. I was *so* sure I would have one last night since I spent all day yesterday thinking about them, but of course I didn't : I've also noticed that I only seem to have SP when I am supine (flat on my back). However this is apparently a very awkward sleeping position for me, at least according to my wife. I tend to snore when lying flat on my back, heh, and usually either roll over onto my side or she makes me roll over so she can get back to sleep :X

Personally I don't believe in OBE's. Here's a long, but interesting read...

http://lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html

Not that you asked me, but I get SP by staying conscious until it happens. It's not something I can induce, but it will happen eventually before you dream, so if you can stay conscious until then, it will happen. Tough to do though, as I often fall asleep trying, or give up waiting (and then fall asleep). Of course you can't stay awake from the beginning of the night, so WBTB method is good to use.

No problem at all, djv. The message was addressed to marc, but I DID post it on a public forum after all ;) Any and all thoughts, comments, suggestions, interesting links, etc from any and all are more than welcome.

As to SP: Your description confused me a little bit.... So since you can't stay awake from the start of the night, I would need to fall asleep, wake up, and then try to stay conscious as I fall asleep?

Interesting article, btw. Thanks for the link.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Psion
No problem at all, djv. The message was addressed to marc, but I DID post it on a public forum after all ;) Any and all thoughts, comments, suggestions, interesting links, etc from any and all are more than welcome.

As to SP: Your description confused me a little bit.... So since you can't stay awake from the start of the night, I would need to fall asleep, wake up, and then try to stay conscious as I fall asleep?

Interesting article, btw. Thanks for the link.

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The time to WILD is when you're near a stage of REM sleep. SP happens with onset of REM sleep. This is normally after several hours of sleep, so what you describe is what I do. People call it WBTB (wake back to bed). Trying to WILD at the beginning of the night is useless for me, so I just take the opportunity when I wake up in the middle of the night, which is most nights (I don't set an alarm because of the wife, but just let it happen).

Hi,

The first OBE happened spontaneously to me. I was listening to the radio while in the SP state. Then I couldn't hear anything, and all the sensations went away. A second later, I felt my upper torso hang off my fouton. I thought I was going to fall and hurt myself in the SP state. A second later my lower body came lose and I fell, but didnt feel an impact. Instead, I accelerated upwards towards and away towards this single direction. I wasn't controlling the flying. I had no body to speak of. I saw and heard nothing. I just felt the sensations of acceleration. I would loop around every few seconds as I sped towards some destination. I was fully conscious for all of this. No less so that I am at this very moment. It was then I understood that I was having my first OBE. It was incredible. It was as if I was flying in an imense black void and headed towards some ultimate destination. I go nervous because I didnt know what I was going to encounter. I spontaneiously said, "goodness protect me. goodness guide me." and was instantly back in my bed. I never said such as thing because I was an atheist most of my life, so it shocked me that I did. So, that was all a spontaneious OBE. Not the normal sort, but still one of them. Again, I was fully conscious when this happened.

The SP hadn't been scary for me since a little after the first incident with the evil entity. I had a few times where I heard threatening voices talking about me and to me that freaked me out, but those hadn't happend in a long time. Then, yesterday, I decided to sleep with the light off for the 2nd time in almost 3 years. Just as happened the first time I tried, I was acosted by an evil entity that was screwing with my mind. It was perfectly audible, I didn't see anything. I also felt it trying to take over my body or something. I know that it was sleep paralysis, but when it was happening, I didn't. It was so real and chaotic that I couldn't focus on calming myself. I just wanted it all to end. And that is after knowing all about SP and having lots of times during the week. Why the thing comes when I have the light out, I don't know. I only know that it is the scariest things in my life and I wont be without a light again for some time.

When I have SP, it normally is after sleeping, but I also have it right from being awake. That is what happend with the evil entity. SP set it after 20 minutes and the thing came to say hi. SP before sleeping the first time is much more intense because I am fully conscious. When SP happeneds when I wake up, I am not always perfectly conscious. That is, not 100%. Sometimes only 80%.

My aunt has SP all the time and sees hallucinations with it. Hers are much more troubling than mine. Being succeptible to SP is obviously family related for me.

About the amazing lucid dream I had: I was having SP and then tried to get out of bed. Eventually I did and all the sensations stopped. I stood before my bed and gazed at my bedroom. Everything was dark, but I could clearly see. Some objects were missing or moved. It is only when I went upstairs from the basement to the main floor that the light level increased to normal, but I did not see any lights actually on. It was a uniform light level all around. Very amazing! My best experience so far of any of the OBE, SP, or LDs.

Take care, we are all in this together :)