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    Thread: The Search For Truth

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      cherry lips Requiem's Avatar
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      The Search For Truth

      How is lucid dreaming involved in the search for Truth? Answering questions about God and that sort of thing?

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      Member SystemsLock's Avatar
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      Here we go again...

      This is a secular forum. Kindly continue this discussion in the beyond dreaming section.
      "I know that I am mortal by nature, and ephemeral; but when I trace at my pleasure the windings to and fro of the heavenly bodies I no longer touch the earth with my feet: I stand in the presence of Zeus himself and take my fill of ambrosia, food of the gods." - Claudius Ptolemy

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      Samael's Avatar
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      It's a pretty vague question besides, Requiem.

      I pick up a half-eaten copy of a book by Neil Gaiman, and decide this is all his fault.

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      Moo nsi dem oons ide kookyinc's Avatar
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      I'd suggest that trying to find something profound and... "Truth-ish" in a Lucid Dream will result in one "discovering" that what one already believes is "Truth." If you get what I'm saying.
      I don't usually think, therefore I mostly am not.
      Quote Originally Posted by abicus View Post
      You can not convince the one with faith who needs not look for fact that the facts "prove them wrong".
      Likewise, you cant teach some one who looks for facts to have faith in the absence of facts.

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      Newbie louie54's Avatar
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      Well... the truth I would seek would involve revealing who am I, since I know that I'm in a world my mind created. God on the other hand... well that's up to you. You could talk to God in your dream I guess, but I would only believe that you are talking to yourself. Revealing the truth about God is another story.

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      I would only believe that you are talking to yourself. Revealing the truth about God is another story.
      That makes me think... even if there is no access to the supernatural in dreams, you might be better equipped to receive some insight into something or other. For example, a lot of art is said to be inspired by dreams.

      I pick up a half-eaten copy of a book by Neil Gaiman, and decide this is all his fault.

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      cherry lips Requiem's Avatar
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      Mods said this location is fine.

      But how can I use lucid dreaming to gain some sort of generic spiritual insight? Find out who I am and my place in the world?

      Also, a friend asked me this question and I didn't know what to tell him. I know I read about people meditating or being aware during deep sleep.

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      generic spiritual insight?
      I think, first of all, you have to find out what you're looking for. IMO, there is no "generic" spiritual insight. You can meditate, and try to be more self-aware, and you can improve your dream control and lucidity, but I really don't know what it is you're going for.

      I pick up a half-eaten copy of a book by Neil Gaiman, and decide this is all his fault.

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      Peaceful Dreamer kenietz's Avatar
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      Once i 'saw' GOD and DEATH in a dream. Was weird, first i died then i flew and finally arrived at mountain top. There they were. I knew they were there i knew that with my guts but i could not really see them. It just doesnt work like that. I couldnt see even when i was flying towards them. They were too enormous. Unimaginable. So i was just the speck down somewhere in their feet. They had a funny chat though cos i heard them laughig not thet i understood something. But they let me go down the mountain by foot and be alive again.
      Weird dream it was. Still thinking what it could mean for me.

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      Guardian Serinanth's Avatar
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      Samael likes this.
      "A knight is sworn to valor.
      His heart knows only virtue.
      His blade defends the helpless.
      His might upholds the weak.
      His word speaks only truth.
      His wrath undoes the wicked."

      Impossible is only that which has yet to be imagined

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      Oneironaut Fonzythedog's Avatar
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      What Truth are you seeking anyway? The only truth I know is that we're small, insignificant beings on a tiny blue dot in the vast and unimaginably huge cosmos.
      GOALS: Fly [X] - Glide [X] - Telekinesis [X] - Teleportation [ ] - Time manipulation [ ] - Have a Matrix-style fight [ ] - Kill someone with Music [ ] - Place my hand in boiling water and drink it [ ] - Make the moon crash into the Earth [ ]

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      http://bit.ly/GoToCME Clyde Machine's Avatar
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      Not to be a jerk, but quite frankly, our understanding of lucid dreaming is simply being aware in our dreams. So, no relation to searching for truth unless there's an aspect to it we have yet to discover.
      DV Dictionary. / Verious: a definition. /

      I'm not on DV much these days, but I'll try to toss a cool dream or two into my DJ.

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      cherry lips Requiem's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Clyde Machine View Post
      Not to be a jerk, but quite frankly, our understanding of lucid dreaming is simply being aware in our dreams. So, no relation to searching for truth unless there's an aspect to it we have yet to discover.
      Well, Tibetan Buddhists have used lucid dreaming in search of enlightenment or attain it or whatever for awhile now. Does that count as Truth?

      I haven't yet found an all encompassing guide though so if anyone has a good link to lucid dreaming and eastern philosophy that would be great. Do they just sit and mediate or what?

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      http://bit.ly/GoToCME Clyde Machine's Avatar
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      Very well, there appears to be a field of lucid dreaming I know little of that sounds like Truth to me. Thanks for the tip. In my experience lucid dreaming doesn't bring me toward the Truth, but I don't mean to say it can't.

      Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Dr. Stephen LaBerge mentions his discoveries with Tibetan meditation and how they use lucid dreaming. You'll want to check out that and his other book, Lucid Dreaming, which has information related to his experiments with them. It also contains mention of his relations with Tibet and their practices.
      DV Dictionary. / Verious: a definition. /

      I'm not on DV much these days, but I'll try to toss a cool dream or two into my DJ.

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      cherry lips Requiem's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Samael View Post
      I think, first of all, you have to find out what you're looking for. IMO, there is no "generic" spiritual insight. You can meditate, and try to be more self-aware, and you can improve your dream control and lucidity, but I really don't know what it is you're going for.
      If it turns out we're all the same...spiritually, then any insight would be pretty generic.

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      before i attempt to answer this question, i must state that i do not consider myself religious at all. but i am spiritual in the sense that i view my thoughts and actions through a larger lens and in relation to greater forces at work.. some of which i do not yet understand.

      the "truth" is very important to me.. but things can only be true in a subjective sense, truth can only be what it is to me. as i walk through life i am aware that there is calling to greater levels of transcendence in my life. this calling drives me, and yet it is something that i do not completely understand yet. lucid dreaming, for me, provides tools to help understand those forces. it is one of many. i think it's insight to the self is incredibly valuable to those means.

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      Member Thyspacegoat's Avatar
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      Agree with what kooky said, you'll see what you expect to, even if you don't expect it consciously.
      Last edited by Thyspacegoat; 07-14-2010 at 09:41 AM.

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      Member SystemsLock's Avatar
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      This is ridiculous (completely ignoring a religious debate where) dreams are just dreams. Kookyinc makes a good point, you're only going to find what you're already looking for.

      Why must everyone connect the slightest unknown with a religious meaning? Mabye dreams are just... you know... DREAMS!
      Last edited by SystemsLock; 07-14-2010 at 04:40 AM.
      "I know that I am mortal by nature, and ephemeral; but when I trace at my pleasure the windings to and fro of the heavenly bodies I no longer touch the earth with my feet: I stand in the presence of Zeus himself and take my fill of ambrosia, food of the gods." - Claudius Ptolemy

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      Member MrFantasy's Avatar
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      That is a very intelligent and relevant question, Requiem. EWOLD, widely considered to be the "Bible" of lucid dreaming, has an entire chapter devoted to just such a topic. In fact, Stephen LaBerge (a scientist) repeatedly implies throughout that book that spirituality and one's individual experience of the divine or a spiritual awakening within the lucid dream is the most important aspect of lucid dreaming, however you may interpret such an experience. It is true that Tibetan Buddhists have for thousands of years used the lucid dream as a vehicle for exploring reality and uncovering a deeper universal truth about who we really are.

      Stephen LaBerge speaks of a lucid dream in which he is driving down the road and sees an attractive young lady hitchhiking at the side of the road. Instead of picking her up, as he normally would, he decided to do something different, resolving to seek "The Highest." He opened himself to guidance, and his car began soaring through the air, then he flew out of it and began rocketing up toward the sky. Mystical symbols flew by as he went, and he eventually rose past the clouds and into a space the seemed like a "limitless mystical realm: a vast emptiness that was overflowing with love, an unbounded space that felt somehow like home." He goes on and begins to sing and feels as if he is embracing the entire cosmos in the resonance of his voice. He goes on to say that this dream gave him a vastly expanded sense of identity, as if he had discovered another form of being in which his ordinary self stood in relation as a drop of water to the ocean.

      He also warns to use caution in your explorations, as dreams can just as easily offer delusions as truth, and upon awakening, if the experience of an "Ultimate Reality" has faded and your waking consciousness feels back to normal again, there is no way to verify if it was truly real or just a dream.
      "Sorrow is nothing but worn out joy."

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      i believe that as humans we are on a mission or journey to figure out who we are and where we came from and how to get back. when i say "how to get back" i mean to say that how can we return to the "god consciousness" we have always known and was always there. To me, god consciousness is knowing all that is and being all that is. we have that power but we have just forgotten in this human experience. I believe that it is through our dreams, meditation, and any other altered state of consciousness that we can "re-remember" this all knowing power we possess. i feel that when one has the ability to lucid dream and dream control, in a sense we are kind of "practicing" how to remember these powers or higher levels of consciousness because it is all by direct will. which we can also do in waking reality but of course it takes longer for those thoughts to manifest. in the dream world thoughts, ideas, and feelings are much faster to come. but to me lucid dreaming is kind of a practice ground for the higher levels of consciousness we already possess but are working towards in this journey of the human experience. After this physical plane.. when we have learned all that we can.. we will move on.. perhaps closer to this "god consciousness" and i believe lucid dreaming plays a part in harnessing these kinds of higher states.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Requiem View Post
      How is lucid dreaming involved in the search for Truth? Answering questions about God and that sort of thing?
      Truth is the state of being true. Two are more things are said to be true to each other, when by some means of comparison, no difference is found in the measures.

      Truth is not something one looks for, but what one constructs.

      Lucid dreaming, properly pursued, exercises one's ability as a craftsman.

      The human mind functions through language in order to manipulate the environment such that we maintain and promote our life. Therefore, on some level, one must first know, and demonstrate how language as a symbolic process does not differ from that which it represents.

      Didn't Confucius say it all? If names be not in accordance with . . . .

      Is not the same claim in Scripture and in Plato, so many have said it, but so few understand.
      Last edited by Philosopher8659; 07-15-2010 at 07:24 PM.

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      Member MrFantasy's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by missxsmilezz View Post
      i believe that as humans we are on a mission or journey to figure out who we are and where we came from and how to get back. when i say "how to get back" i mean to say that how can we return to the "god consciousness" we have always known and was always there. To me, god consciousness is knowing all that is and being all that is. we have that power but we have just forgotten in this human experience. I believe that it is through our dreams, meditation, and any other altered state of consciousness that we can "re-remember" this all knowing power we possess. i feel that when one has the ability to lucid dream and dream control, in a sense we are kind of "practicing" how to remember these powers or higher levels of consciousness because it is all by direct will. which we can also do in waking reality but of course it takes longer for those thoughts to manifest. in the dream world thoughts, ideas, and feelings are much faster to come. but to me lucid dreaming is kind of a practice ground for the higher levels of consciousness we already possess but are working towards in this journey of the human experience. After this physical plane.. when we have learned all that we can.. we will move on.. perhaps closer to this "god consciousness" and i believe lucid dreaming plays a part in harnessing these kinds of higher states.
      Exactly. It's as if human beings have become entranced by egoic consciousness, completely convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are who we think we are, nothing more, and nothing less. Certain altered states of consciousness such as Lucid Dreaming can give us a glimpse back into our natural, undefined state of open, unbounded, awareness that we always have been. I also believe that humans are currently at a major turning point in our evolution, where we will soon either destroy ourselves completely and leave mother nature to start over new, or we will experience a major shift in Consciousness that utterly redefines how we perceive ourselves and how we perceive the rest of the Universe.
      "Sorrow is nothing but worn out joy."

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      Meet me at my Gateway :) GatewayExplorer's Avatar
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      I would suggest you meet up with your DG and have him/her answer a few questions for you, as they are said to guide you
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      cherry lips Requiem's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by SystemsLock View Post
      Mabye dreams are just... you know... DREAMS!


      Quote Originally Posted by Philosopher8659 View Post
      but so few understand.
      Your posts are always the best, dude. I get a real kick outta them but they go right over my head.

      And MrFantasy, Steve's dream sounds trippy! Cool!

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      XeL
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      Quote Originally Posted by Clyde Machine View Post
      Very well, there appears to be a field of lucid dreaming I know little of that sounds like Truth to me. Thanks for the tip. In my experience lucid dreaming doesn't bring me toward the Truth, but I don't mean to say it can't.

      Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Dr. Stephen LaBerge mentions his discoveries with Tibetan meditation and how they use lucid dreaming. You'll want to check out that and his other book, Lucid Dreaming, which has information related to his experiments with them. It also contains mention of his relations with Tibet and their practices.
      No, don't. Get "The tibetan yogas of dream and sleep" if you're interested in that subject, Requim.

      Let's get back on topic. First of all you need to set a definition for what truth is for you. According to tibetan followers of the Bön tradition, one needs to be in a state of lucidity when in the bardo.

      For me truth is action/thought without grasping or aversion. This can be achieved through dream yoga. When maintaining in a state of lucidity (both at day and night), one learns to develop the ability to control your reactions and emotions towards the physical world, thus, also eventually seeing the true nature of everything.

      Once you are in that state, there will be no right or wrong, no ugly, no beauty, no perceptual thoughts. The only thing that will remain is the true nature, aka the truth (following my definition of the word).
      Last edited by XeL; 07-15-2010 at 11:00 PM.
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