Redefining What Lucidy Means

[Neo Neo]

Alright, so here goes some recent thoughts of mine. Hope this is the right section of the forum for this Some background: was hanging out with a old high school friend and we got talking about dreaming. His level of lucidity and control was basically mastery, so I was asking him about my dreams and how I'm usually aware to a degree. I'll be conscious of walking around, interacting with people, and deciding where and what to do next. However I'm seldom lucid to the point where I'll remember its a dream or try to willingly control/alter aspects of the dream. He then remarked that this awareness was lucid dreaming, that by being cognizant in my dreams I technically am lucid, just not my idea of an "aha I'm in a dream!" kind of lucid. To clarify, this isn't an after-awareness of remembering being in a dream, its an awareness of going through the dream. I'll go to sleep and lay down in bed, have the blackout in consciousness, and bam will be aware again at some point in a dream/REM. Still caught up in whatever the dream is laying out in front of me, but still aware none the less. I know on this forum that lucid dreaming usually deals with the realization that you are aware of being within a dream, but I am wondering if it should be broadened to include any type of awareness in the dream state. The "aha!" moment of realizing you are dreaming while in the dream could be viewed more as another layer or depth into the experience, and not something so separate as a significant shift in perception. I know things like this could be termed as regular dreaming or low-level lucidity, but I am personally starting to feel that the lines between lucidity and non-lucidity are not so cut and dry.

[Sensei]

I find that the difference between lucid and non lucid does get blurred when you get a little further in, however, my goal is to have that changing moment where my two minds collide. That is why I stick with a lucid being "aware that I am dreaming within a dream", because if not, then I would say that I have about 4-6 lucids a night vs 1.4 Lucids a night. If I think that I am hitting my goal already, then why would I work harder to get better dreams? I am generally in charge of my dreams and making all my decisions, this is how it has been for the majority of my life though. home = place you reside school = place you do learn home school = the education of children inside the home lucid = being aware dream = a series of thoughts, images, and sensations occurring in a person's mind during sleep. lucid dream = aware in a dream that you are dreaming While what you are talking about a dream that is lucid (or aware), a lucid dream already has a definition. I think that the line has to be drawn somewhere, and where it is at is a good place. I honestly have been thinking about recording not just lucidity, but amount of times I slow down and think about my goals. I won't call this "lucid dream count", but I will count it as more of a win.

[m4ra]

Lucidity is a scale to me, a continuum between being completely conscious of being in a dream and being able to do exactly what you want on one end and just having absolutely no idea you're in a dream on the other. Most of the the time you're bound to fall somewhere between those two extremes. I think the cut-off point is simply just having that "aha" moment and what follows can either be complete control and understanding one is in the dream state or just going on a little adventure and seeing what happens, still keeping the idea of being in a dream in mind. Where lucidity in it's proper sense disappears after the "aha" moment is still something that can be debated.

[Neo Neo]

Crap I posted in the wrong part of the forum. No more posting for me when I'm super tired. Yes true what you've both said. I am starting to think more of it as a continuum, but even if I think of it differently it doesn't change the definition of lucidity

[Sensei]

Crap I posted in the wrong part of the forum. No more posting for me when I'm super tired. Yes true what you've both said. I am starting to think more of it as a continuum, but even if I think of it differently it doesn't change the definition of lucidity What do you mean of it as a continuum? Moved to general lucid

[FryingMan]

Probably that lucidity exists on a spectrum instead of being a binary "on/off" quality.

[Neo Neo]

Yo Sensei thanks for the move. Probably that lucidity exists on a spectrum instead of being a binary "on/off" quality. Yes, saying lucidity is a spectrum hits closer to what I am thinking of. Maybe instead of lucidity I could be talking about awareness or cognizance within the dream, but wouldn't this still be lucidity? That moment of lucidity we always talk about is already established as the definition of being lucid, and is a good tried and true method because you know when you've realized you are fully within a dream. However the dictionary definition of lucidity is clarity and in that sense I think being lucid should include the moment you are conscious you are going through the motions of a dream plot. Although someone at this point is buying into the dream and thinking it is reality, the fact that they are conscious of their activities would suggest to me that they are lucid. I think the amount of awareness and control we aspire to is nice and all, and a objective goal to strive for since again it is obvious if one has achieved these abilities and consciousness within the dream. I am not saying that these states of being should be invalidated, but thought of as further stages into lucid dreaming development. I think of the analogy of martial arts where there are several belt levels; each is a progression which leads to greater proficiency and mastery of the art form. I think the same can be applied to lucid dreaming, with the "aha" defining moment of lucidity being closer to mid or advanced levels, and broadening the term to include even the slightest amounts of conscience within dreams. At least, that's what I was getting at haha. Maybe not much more than I had implied, but I hope more detail and explanation.

[Sageous]

^^ What is the difference between being "conscious you are going through the motions of a dream plot," and being aware that you are dreaming? They sound the same to me. Consciousness is always present in dreams; it is self-awareness/memory, or cognition, that is missing in a NLD. Contrary to popular opinion, we think just fine during a NLD, but our thoughts are defined by the reality of the given dream, and not by the reality of our waking-life self-awareness and memories. Also, I'm not sure you can directly apply the dictionary definition of lucidity to LD'ing, because LD'ing is really not about clarity, but self-awareness. You can have some amazingly clear NLD's in which you are consciously active and enjoy strong cognition based solely on the imagined dream scene that you think is real (without a hint of remembering or understanding that none of this is real), just as you can have LD's where imagery is dark and empty, and your thoughts are muddled (but those thoughts, you know, are based on your waking-life identity and memory). To say you are lucid just because you are consciously clear during a dream that you still take to be reality falls a bit short of lucidity by any measure, I think. And yes, I've heard LaBerge lament more than once that the term "Lucid Dreaming" was invented at all, because its use it tends to confuse more often than define the condition. I believe as well that there is a "sliding scale" for lucidity, but that scale starts at the "Ah-ha" moment. That moment does not need to be an exciting "Oh my god I'm dreaming!" event that energizes your emotions and senses, either. It can also just be a quiet acknowledgment like "Oh, yeah, this is a dream," which allows you to understand that you are dreaming and, say, that charging T-Rex can't hurt you, but it doesn't free up enough self-awareness or memory to exercise any real control.

[lenscaper]

I believe as well that there is a "sliding scale" for lucidity, but that scale starts at the "Ah-ha" moment. That moment does not need to be an exciting "Oh my god I'm dreaming!" event that energizes your emotions and senses, either. It can also just be a quiet acknowledgment like "Oh, yeah, this is a dream," which allows you to understand that you are dreaming and, say, that charging T-Rex can't hurt you, but it doesn't free up enough self-awareness or memory to exercise any real control. I found this excellent discussion yesterday. It is exactly what I was searching for. I am giving it a bump just in case there are others who are wondering how their personal dream lucidity measures up. In the short time that I have been training I have had a number of those "aha" moments and a larger number of passively lucid dream events. Those passively lucid passages are always loaded with places where I could have achieved full lucidity if I had stopped to recognize them. Each one of those brings me closer to my goal of bringing full lucidity and awareness across the threshold as an unbroken continuity of consciousness between awake and a'dream. Last night I recorded two NLDs when I woke up at my targeted WBTB time. I did some strong SSILD cycles and when I awoke again I journaled six more NLDs that each had very definite opportunities for lucidity. Getting very close now. Reading these old threads is really helping me in my training.