Thread: The Do's and Don'ts of New Age Groups (a bad experience!)

Originally Posted by juroara

Science tells us that all humans are psychic to a small degree.

Leave science out of this!

It was a genuine scientific research discussed in genuine scientific article (deal with it! )


"Marilyn Schlitz connected volunteers to a series of monitors, similar to a lie detector, to measure their heartbeat, perspiration and other nervous activity. She then had them sit in front of a computer screen and began showing them a series of images which were selected at random by the computer from a large collection. These images were described as either "neutral" (boring) or "emotional" (erotic or morbid). As expected, the subjects showed physical and mental excitement when the "emotional" images were shown and showed less reaction to the "neutral" images. But as the experiment continued, something weird happened. Researchers began to see that most people, unconsciously, began to react to the "emotional" images a full 5 seconds before they were selected by the computer program! What's more, they did not react to the "neutral" images. This result was statstically significant (p=0.00003) and has been repeated many times. It strongly suggests hat subjects can perceive the future.

Another study, described in the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, was reported by psychophysiologist Rollin McCraty and his colleagues from the Institute of Heartmath in Boulder Creek, California. McCraty's group simultaneously measured skin conductance, heart rate, and brainwave activity before, during, and after 26 participants viewed emotional and calm pictures. They found that both the heart (p < 0. 001) and the brain (p < 0. 05) responded about 5 seconds before the future emotional stimuli, and to their amazement, that the heart responded before the brain. They also observed significant gender differences in the processing of this future information (women performed better, on average, than men). They concluded: "Our findings suggest that intuitive perception is not a discrete function produced by a single part or system of the body alone. Rather, it appears that intuition may in fact be a system-wide process involving at least the heart and brain, together, in the processing and decoding of intuitive information." They highlighted that "the fact that the heart is involved in the perception of a future external event is a surprising, even astounding result, especially from the classical perspective that assigns the brain an exclusive role [for perception]."

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Leave science out of this!

actually science cannot explain or disprove the ability of humans to somehow sense when other humans are watching them. im skeptical of psychic abilities too but i try to keep an open mind and not automatically dismiss shit i dont understand. as far as the new age movement i think its a bunch of dudes trying to get rich off bourgeoisie housewives trying to "empower" themselves.

Originally Posted by juroara

It was a genuine scientific research discussed in genuine scientific article (deal with it! )

I'm sorry but "Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine" hardly sounds reputable... In any case, I'd wager my left pinky that 99% of scientists don't believe in psychics, so to claim that "science" as a whole has accepted psychic powers as fact because of one or two (probably not peer-reviewed) "studies" would be false. It would be kind of big news if we could predict the future, don't you think more people would know about it?

Using false or "stretched-truth" scientific data is one of the tactics charlatans use to misinform and rob people.

Originally Posted by stormcrow

actually science cannot explain or disprove the ability of humans to somehow sense when other humans are watching them. im skeptical of psychic abilities too but i try to keep an open mind and not automatically dismiss shit i dont understand. as far as the new age movement i think its a bunch of dudes trying to get rich off bourgeoisie housewives trying to "empower" themselves.

Can anybody prove this ability, who says it exists? If there's nothing to disprove, then no wonder they can't.

This reminds me of "Reiki shares" I used to attend during highschool, and thankfully they were genuine people who seriously did know Reiki to varying degrees. We did healing and sometimes worked with crystals, and the meetings were free and opened and closed with the traditional Reiki affirmations by Mikao Usui. I was actually attuned and trained to use the first degree of Reiki, although it's considerably different than the traditional Japanese form of Reiki which works more like the progression through a martial art (for example, after a certain length of experience you "advance" to the next level of Reiki, and there are several more "levels" of Reiki in the Japanese style, versus only the 3 and "mastery" level we have in the Western system). For me personally, it took a few months until I was seriously sure and ready to want to learn first degree Reiki, although I had been open to it and practicing it before in these healing sessions.

But yeah, I agree with Jurora, you have to watch it with new age groups because its easy to become distracted from the flow and sacred nature of what its meant to be. I do not know how it is with other people, but for me dealing with energy and Reiki (meditation too) is fairly subtle and there are usually no extravagant "mystical experiences" that some people tend to expect on their first try. It takes practice and having goals; serious mastery of "new age" things doesn't happen quickly or overnight.

Yes there are lots of frauds out there. I did see a psychic twice... But I knew before hand she was the real deal based on what people said. True Psychics are there to help people, not put fear into people. Seeing a Psychic is nice and all, but really it's YOU who decides what to do with the information. My experience with My psychic was a very positive one. and so far a lot of the things she would happen, happened, but at the same time i had to be aware of things. and Not everything she predicted happened... i'm still waiting for my nightly lucid breakthrough

Originally Posted by Spartiate

I'm sorry but "Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine" hardly sounds reputable...

That was not the original article that I read it in. That was just the first google info I found . I'm not going to spend hours looking for the original article I read years ago, when you clearly have a biased against this experiment and the scientists. (show me genuine evidence that this experiment is false, not your OPINION) What I posted gave specific names, and if you are curious you can do the research yourself.

(btw - there are plenty of scientific studies proving the benefits of alternative medicine, in many cases, exceeding conventional medicine. Maybe it's time to educate yourself on the benefits of natural medicine, since you seem to think this journal isn't reliable information because it doesn't support synthetic medications)

In any case, I'd wager my left pinky that 99% of scientists don't believe in psychics, so to claim that "science" as a whole has accepted psychic powers

No scientist said anything about powers. The term power makes it sound strange and unnatural, something you 'activate'. But what the study suggests is our subconscious somehow can react to future events seconds before they happen. One theory presented was because time is non-linear. Information flows forwards, as well as backwards - I think that was a hawking saying.

Using false or "stretched-truth" scientific data is one of the tactics charlatans use to misinform and rob people.

Honestly, I'm little annoyed by your post for two reasons.

One: You're completely skewing WHY I brought up this experiment. As this experiment would place all human beings on the same playing field as proclaimed psychics, making them less special, less important, and less likely to fool you into stealing your money. This experiment in no way gives power to charlatans.

Two: You come here to the Inner Sanctum, a place where we can talk about strange things. I present a scientific study trying to shed light on these strange things. You believe we should consider these genuine scientists, LESS of a scientist because YOU have a BIAS against what they are studying? I except that kind of attitude in the Science forum, where materialism rules, but here in the Inner Sanctum we have every right to talk about scientific experiments, and genuine scientists exploring strange new fields.

The Inner Sanctum is the appropriate forum for precisely those discussions and the experiment I referred to.

In other words, I'm not going to continue arguing with you whether or not these experiments are genuine.

Originally Posted by Neo Neo

This reminds me of "Reiki shares" I used to attend during highschool, and thankfully they were genuine people who seriously did know Reiki to varying degrees. We did healing and sometimes worked with crystals, and the meetings were free and opened and closed with the traditional Reiki affirmations by Mikao Usui.

I think its awesome that the meetings were free, keeps everything nice and traditional. I know that a lot of people these days want out of boring meaningless jobs, so there looking for sources of creative incomes. I can understand that, but at the same its transforming what used to be free to learn, and free to heal, into overly expensive paid sessions

I think that was partly the problem in my moms meetup groups. Just about everything cost something.

I do not know how it is with other people, but for me dealing with energy and Reiki (meditation too) is fairly subtle and there are usually no extravagant "mystical experiences" that some people tend to expect on their first try. It takes practice and having goals; serious mastery of "new age" things doesn't happen quickly or overnight.

Thanks! I think that's an important observation to share. While new age is a lot of fun and offers a lot of freedom, I think its biggest short comings is that it tries to rush the ancient arts.

Originally Posted by MoSH

Yes there are lots of frauds out there. I did see a psychic twice... But I knew before hand she was the real deal based on what people said. True Psychics are there to help people, not put fear into people. Seeing a Psychic is nice and all, but really it's YOU who decides what to do with the information. My experience with My psychic was a very positive one. and so far a lot of the things she would happen, happened, but at the same time i had to be aware of things. and Not everything she predicted happened... i'm still waiting for my nightly lucid breakthrough

Btw, how did you find this psychic? Was the session, expensive, free, a reasonable price?

I found out about her from the local new age emporium store. An hour session was $75, I think that rate was lowered than her usual though. She is also an internet psychic. her psuedo is evangeline. psychic4readings.com is the website she works from I think. Sometimes she offers a few minutes of free readings.

Getting the training for 1st Degree Reiki did cost something, but my teacher charged significantly less than other's I've found online just browsing through sites. People in the Reiki Shares also had varying degrees of perception, a few people who attended did not perceive or "feel" as much of the energy as others did, so that's another factor when it comes to learning something that works beyond the physical. Also, 1st degree Reiki is pretty much the only level you need unless you want to learn more advanced ways of dealing with energy. But anyone is able to do Reiki even without formal training in it, they just have to have it explained to them and it would work just the same.

With 1st degree you learn the basic Reiki symbols, hand positions, affirmations and prayers, clearing out the aura and releasing energy and replacing it with renewed energy. Long distance healing might be covered too, I don't remember off hand. But its important to remember that the Reiki practitioner facilitates the flow of the healing energy, and that they are the conduit between the person being healed and the source (aka the divine, sacred) and should be treated as sacred energy. The people I worked with were also humble about it, and none of them were "masters" although they each healed as effectively as each other. Reiki (energy) is also intuitive and also heals on all levels (physical, emotional, spiritual). But I digress; it might be hard finding the right group but they are out there. Just have to be careful sometimes to make sure its actually for real, and if it is then awesome. Common sense is helpful too.

Originally Posted by stormcrow

actually science cannot explain or disprove the ability of humans to somehow sense when other humans are watching them. im skeptical of psychic abilities too but i try to keep an open mind and not automatically dismiss shit i dont understand. as far as the new age movement i think its a bunch of dudes trying to get rich off bourgeoisie housewives trying to "empower" themselves.

Well you could always do a double blind experiment.

And believe it or not scientists did.

And got a negative result.

Go away now please.

Originally Posted by Xei

Well you could always do a double blind experiment.

And believe it or not scientists did.

And got a negative result.

Go away now please.

citations plz

Originally Posted by stormcrow

actually science cannot explain or disprove

God that is soooooo annoying! people use that so friggin much! like omg! everytime i see someone use that i wanna rip my hair out!

Calm yourself.

Originally Posted by Xei

Well you could always do a double blind experiment.

And believe it or not scientists did.

And got a negative result.

Go away now please.

go way because you dont like my opinions? very open minded of you.

Lucid Flanders: There are actually alot of things science cant explain like consciousness, gravity, existence, and uh yawning.
now i dont want to get into a fight with all the scientific materialists on this site, im not saying science is bad, just saying it cant tell us about things that are not empirically accessible to us. Everyone from Einstein to Karl Popper have acknowledged this. You give science a bad name when you treat it like a religion, blindly swallowing concepts other people have discovered and treating them like absolute truths. but hey it saves you the trouble from thinking for yourself right?

And uh yawning. XD

Well, it's good that your mother got away from the scams and frauds and whatnot, and it was an interesting read, even if I'm not very New Age myself.

Also: This thread has digressed a bit.

As a Reiki practitioner, I don't like the whole American Reiki thing that much, but at the same time I think that the whole Japanese Reiki system is too entrenched in its own culture and cannot evolve with new discoveries because Usui did not teach it.

But the thing that bugs me most in Western reiki is that a middle-aged housewife looking for some self-worth and meaning in her life can pay $$ and in three days start calling herself a Reiki "Master". It isn't the initiation ceremony that makes you a "Master". It is your effort that you put into becoming a master of yourself. In the past, a person had to prove that they were worthy of learning the teachings after years of service to the teacher. This kept the teachings pure and powerful. But now such exclusiveness is why many of the teachings have become in danger of dying out. So in a way, it is good that anybody can learn it now if they have the money, however, they still have to prove themselves after they learn the teachings.

Notice that I call myself a "Reiki Practioner" instead of a Reiki "Master". It is good to keep "Beginner's Mind" and to stay humble so that you can continue to learn.
The thing with money, is that a genuine teacher is motivated by the need to teach what he/she knows and needs to be supported financially, while a fake teacher is motivated by the desire to make money, and has no authentic personal teachings.

As a student, a person has to demonstrate that they are committed to learning and practicing the teachings. Nowadays if it is required that we drop out of society and serve the Guru for years at the temple before being chosen as worthy then the teachings will die out. The best way, but not ideal, is to offer money which represents the sacrifice you are willing to make for the teachings, that you actually value them and want to master them, instead of just being curious. And the teacher deserves to be supported by his/her students so that he/she can continue to teach. This should be a symbiotic relationship where everyone is benefiting.

My teacher explained that the levels of Reiki are stages of practice that you can grow into if you continue to practice. It isn't instant enlightenment. It is up to your effort, and self-honesty, just like it has always been.

I understand what you are saying, Juroara, and your Mom's group sounds completely disgusting. Unfortunately this is the standard for most "New-Age" groups these days. It is like what the Sadhu tradition in India has devolved into, and the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is headed that way also, but it is by-and-large much more purer. But ALL the teachings are within you. Your own conscience is the Master! You will recognize the truth when you hear it, that is the criteria to judge a teacher or a teaching.

My teacher is so full of love and healthy it is ridiculous. He walks his talk. I love him so much and am forever indebted to him. He saved my life once during a healing session. He usually charges $60 per healing session but he only charged me $30, a small price to pay to heal a life-threatening condition in an 1 1/2 hours session.

But the people who are fooled by charlatans deserve to be fooled by them. And if they aren't fooled by one charlatan they will be fooled by another. And that is OK, because we are all fooled by many things everyday, and we are constantly learning. The charlatans are despised, but offer a needed service. The effort is to not need to be fooled so that you can recognize a real teacher. Those charlatans allow the real teachers to focus on the real teachings for worthy students who are not stupid and fooled by false teachings. If only real teachers existed then they would have to deal with all the stupid people who are attracted to stupid teachings. It is like at the Rainbow Gatherings alcohol is not allowed inside the Gathering, so there is a camp called A(lcohol)-camp outside the gates where all the drunks stay. They are like security. If anyone tries to enter the Gathering with alcohol the A-campers confiscate it and drink it. And if you want to drink alcohol you can stay at the A-camp and you won't enter the Gathering. Or it is like the Tantra Temples in India where the outside of the temple is covered with sculptures of Gods and Goddesses doing every conceivable sexual act but the inside is spacious and conducive to meditation.

We need these charlatans as long as there are idiots who want them.
Congratulations to your Mom for being being intelligent!

Yeah, it's a damn shame that these new-agers are pissing on legitimate knowledge in order to scam people out of money...basically, new age is a religion now

Wow very interresting, intelligent topic. I couldn't have expected anything else of you Juroara

I have come across such terrible movements as well. They didn't feel right from the very start, allthough I kept an open mind to it.
False prophets are popping up everywhere.

Here's an unsettling experience of mine, concerning this issue:

I saw some of my friends completely brainwashed and drawn in by these newage cullts. I had 2 friends. One was a girl with whom I had a short romance. We remained friends and through her I met a friend of her from Hawaii who came to Holland.
They were very inspired by the Hare Krishna movement. They went more and more to the local Hare Krishna temple and felt more and more at home there with these people. They offered to take me to share this experience.

On several occasions I was invited to join them to the Temple. I ate there, provided some food for the meals as well and on several occasions I joined them in the streets with my Djembé when they chanted in public, walking downtown.
It was quite enjoyable, and I kept my mind open, but all the while my Intuition was telling me something was VERY wrong there.

One day I went to the temple with my friends. Another (male)friend of mine also came along. He was also openminded, yet intuitively alerted by this movement just like me. A Guru came in. The whole concept of a Guru struck me as wierd and backwards; How can you preach equality and Spiritual Scholarship together? Seemed like oil & water to me. When he started speaking about higher consciousness I was still calm and receptive, but in between all those charming stories he suddenly told of "a very special, beautyfull temple" in India. He then went on saying outsiders were MOST unwelcome. He continued that westeners would risk their life going in there. My eyes opened wide like dishes. He then continued telling how a Muslim man had come to the temple out of curiosity and how he was beaten within inches of death with sticks and thrown out of the temple. I broke some serious sweat there. Then he added a little quirky smile after saying that, as if somehow that was in any way amusing or apeacing :S
From the calm, pure and receptive awareness I transformed into a raging flame it felt.

Not long after that my(once lover) friend and her Hawaiian friend both came into contact with a certain guy named Alex. He claimed to be a master of all sorts of spiritual healing. He was one of those doomsday prophets you mentioned as well.
Allthough my (male) friend was as sceptic as I was about the local Hare Krishna community, he(like me) was also interrested in spiritual healing. This was what this Alex Guru used to get a grip on him.
This Alex creature told him all sorts of strange things; That he was full of evil spirits that at any time could take him to some hell-kind of place. He told him that the drugs he did( hashish, cannabis and the mere 2 times he did LSD and only one magic mushroom experience) made holes in his aura through which these evil entities supposedly entered him.

One day he came in terror to me with this story. He was in passionate tears! There was amazing terror in his eyes
His girlfriend, who'd never even met this goolish Alex was also greatly upset and in panic. His girlfriend was feeling sick and this Alexfreak told him it was his fault for using drugs and inviting demons.
This made my friend feel very guilty on top of being very terrified. I was upset and told him this Alex was a manipulative creep.
I talked them out of it. I said a spiritual healer would never fill you up with fear: in fact it is the manipulative brainwashing-type that would do this.
A spiritual healer would actually help you face and surpass your fears. Now he snapped out of it at those words as did his girlfriend.

Shortly before all this I myself was interrested in meeting this Alex. I wanted to have a chat with em, but he said he would only do this if I would stop smoking Cannabis.
This alarmed me really. Who the hell does this man think he is.

Well I pretty much saw right through him, allthough I never actually got to meet him( The coward! )
The unfortunate things is that my (lover)friend's Hawaiian friend was totally under this Alex's grip. She broke all ties with us and moved in with him and his cult of brainwashed sheep in a house.
Luckily my (lover)friend spoke me a long time after this and told how she was also displeased with Alex and that they went completely the wrong way. She told her that her Hawaiian friend didn't wanna see her anymore.

It's disgusting how some people use other people's belief systems against them to brainwash and enslave them.



PS: Stormcrow I actually pretty much agree with your point, allthough not all the way. Science as we know it has been very unable to prove/disprove alot of things,
but science as we know it is changing.
Science may at some point very well become capable of proving/disproving certain things it can now not even measure. Let's keep an open mind to the future.

BUT, please let's not make this topic one about what Science can and cannot prove.
Instead I would like to hear what you think of this Spiritual deception? Have you ever experienced this yourself?