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There have been threads on this subject that were last updated in 2007, so I thought I'd spark the discussion back up.
Ok, bear with me, as logically, this topic is quite new to me. Where I have always been tripped up is the illusion of time, it's tricky. The body exists in the present, and to be complete, body and mind, consciousness must also exist here and now, in the present.
Am I sorta on track here?
that time is an illusion, or at least the perception of time.
we have nothing but our perceptions. if we can (")accurately(") measure these illusions of time, then it is, for all our intents and purposes, real.
we also don't have any reason to believe this substantial claim, so I can't say I'm taking it seriously.
e; almost forgot I was in inner sanctum! this is now a philosophy thread
the important thing isn't if everything's real or not, it's if we choose to act on it. what does it change in our lives if all of time is happening all at once? will I do anything differently because of it? is there a way to manipulate this?
again, our perception is all we have. it's the only thing we have to go off of.
this doesn't discredit our perception, only that we should remember that what we see/hear/feel/taste/smell isn't absolute law.
I would think that letting go of the past and future frees us into the present to be able to experience eternity in one timeless moment. Where we are free, where the physical body and mind exist together, or are one in the same.
I thought Steven Hawking published something along these lines. That past and present are an illusion, and the only time that truly exists is this moment, and that everything exists simultaneously.
He is right, we all live in the moment because all we have is right now which was directly a result of our past decisions, even if it's 1 second ago.
I think I understand.It isn't that everything is somehow happening right now(which would indicate that creation is happening right know, as an example); instead, it's that this moment is the only existing moment, and is ever-changing.So, instead of somehow being born, and at the same time, dying (which is logically impossible), we are in one moment that happens to change.We can just recall the previous 'frame' this moment was in.If this is true, then time-travel is impossible.This would also indicate that there is no past.
I've always been baffled by this question as well.
Time is just something that never ends... we can never truly be in the present.. because right as we think we are in the 'present,' time passes and becomes the past...
Also, time must have existed before the earth was even created, and time will continue even if there is nothing in the universe alive... Time just is what it is, in this moment.
I do believe that seeing the 'future' is possible, but not because something has already happened, more like an increased intuition giving the ability to know somehow what will, or might happen given the course of events happening in the moment/present.
According to quantum mechanics, everything is existing at once because there are an infinite number of universes and, therefore, infinite possibilities. I'll try and explain it the way it was explained to me because the theory is really abstract.
Try to imagine the universe as a flat surface, similar to a tv screen, which projects what is going on in a two-dimensional image. Of course, the universe isn't flat. What I'm describing is just one dimension. Two-dimensional images can be stacked on top of each other, infinitely. So try to imagine the universe in relation to you, in a sort of gradient pattern. There are universes where I am a tall, black man. There are universes where I am a one-eyed, three-legged giraffe. In this universe, I am a short, white female. And by this logic, there are universes where I don't exist at all.
I dont know much about the physics of time, so I might not be the most qualified to ask about this, but if the phenomenon of time as a physical thing is unreal, and instead it is an illusion of sorts, then how would you explain the (even experimentally verified) twin paradox?
Twin paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
FWIW,
TimB
Time is not a thing. A second is a thing.
Like linearity is not a thing, but a line segment is.
Neither material difference nor form, in of themselves are things. It is only when material difference resides within a form does one have a thing.
Thus everything is composed of two very distinct, one might say, nothings--the two elements, form and material difference.
So, you cannot predicate of time, just like you cannot predicate of space. When you can grasp the concept, you will conclude that Einstein was an idiot. And all that you take as wisdom, is really nothing, oh, but this was written somewhere, was it not?
Here is a magic trick. 1 Amp equals 1 coloumb of electrons passing a given point in 1 second. There for 1 second equals 1 coloumb of electrons forced past a given point by one amp,
A = C/S, AS = C (resolves to mass = energy) S = C/A, or time (the things we call seconds, hours, but not time qua time) is a measure of mass in motion. Just like the caveman did it.
Now here comes the kicker, can you define energy without using the compent of time, for if you do, you now have a self-referential statement. i.e. the foundation of phyics is a contradiction.
These elements of our existence cannot be defined, they cannot be predicated of. All we can do is to construct things from them. Just like we cannot concieve of time qua time, only can we concieve of the things we make from it, like seconds, hours, seasons, lifetimes.
Every environmental acquisition system abstracts from things, one of its two elements. We cannot abstract from either of these two elements, i.e. they cannot be known. We cannot divide the divisor, nor change the difference. A principle known to some early Greeks, but apparently way over the current proclaimed genius's of the world.
Honestly? I have no idea what you just said...
Plus, I haven't seen where Einstein was an idiot in the twin paradox through that post. Again, please explain where or how the experimental data that shows the twin paradox, is wrong.
Oh, you are completly blind to simple concepts, a metaphysics whose start was over 2400 years ago, yet you think you can comprehend the application of the same?Quote:
Originally Posted by TimB
Hello?
Speak in a way we can understand brochacho.
Phil, you always speak in riddles quite pedantically, then ridicule people who don't understand what you are saying, but give the credit to the ancient Greeks. I'm just saying. I still am trying to understand the message behind your words, and this post has helped. Thanks. But I still have some way to go.
AS far as time exists or not. The body exists now. The mind exists in the past or the future. The mind cannot exist now. Because, like someone just said, once you think of it it is already the past. The conceptual mind filters every perception and automatically labels it and applies a previously learned symbol to it, usually an image and a word, but also often memories. The mind is a filter, and it interprets everything. By the time you are aware of these words that you are reading you have already read them. But it appears to be now, but be vigilant and observe. It is the past. How big or small is the present moment? Check it out. You will be surprised! That not even the present moment exists! But it is the most real thing. When you have found the present moment you have found your true self!!! (This is an open secret I give to you as a gift, who will accept it?) It is actually just a crack in this world that your spirit is squeezing through like light from under a door. But even less. It has no dimensions. You are what makes this present moment real, because you do not exist in the past or the future, but only now. Your reality makes everything it touches real. Even though the past does not exist, and even though the future does not exist, and even though the present is the only real thing but it is a no-dimensional edge between the illusory past and the non-existent future, time still goes on, empires rise and fall. time is a mystery.
Someone here just said that if time didn't exist that would mean that the Universe is being created now, but they didn't believe it. Yes, the universe is being created right now, through the present moment, by the same reality that shines through the vertical crack upon the horizontal line of time. Now I guess I am saying that the present moment is one dimensional, but these are just metaphors. If you are thinking about it and trying to understand then you are in the past or in some fantasy world. Come back to your body, here and now. This is real. The past may stretch out behind you, or to your left, the future may be ahead of you, or to your right, but these are fantasies and dreams. Lucidity is only now. Now is the realest time there is. If you see time as a horizontal line then the present moment is a vertical line crossing is like a cross. You exist at the top of the vertical line, not on the horizontal line. But this vertical line is just a spoke on the wheel, the tire being time that keeps on rolling. You are not on the tire, you are at the hub of the wheel, around which time revolves forever. At least that is where you will realize you have always been upon the moment of your death, but that is in the future, so realize it now. Time! Time is one of the greatest mysteries, and it is something that we can observe and learn from. But only if we don't THINK about it but only if we strive to dwell in the atomic moment. We might feel like we are too big to fit in the moment and that we are always in danger of overflowing, or balancing on a tightrope. Keep practicing. Through the present moment you pass through a gate into another dimension more spacious than this whole universe, but all within you, even though it contains the all the Universes. But your mind is too heavy to take to this lofty dimension. Time is drama. Don't believe in it, don't get caught in it. Don't kill time, don't buy time, don't invest in your future because then you will sell your present for counterfeit. It is a rip-off. Like my bro John Lennon said "Life is what happens to you when you are busy making other plans." Life is at the center of the wheel, and so is death. In fact, life and death are only two different things that follow each other in time. Just like night and day. In reality, the sun is always shining, but not down here on this rotating ball (wheel) of earth.
Have you noticed that the older you get the faster time passes? I am sure you have. That is because time is relative. Einstein elucidated that with the theory of relativity. When you are young, one year might be only one twentieth of your life; a very big chink of your life. As you get older, one year is smaller and smaller in comparison to your life time. The smaller the unit, the faster it goes. The whole lifetime collectively is the same length regardless if you only live five years or if you live five hundred years. Time is a mysterious illusion and at the same time a force of nature. But we do not actually exist in time. We exist in eternity, which as some of you know, is only found now. Step through the gate of Now and enter Eternity. But you will have to leave your conceptual mind behind.
You say I speak in riddles? When I first started my study of the Platonic dialogs, I did so because I had a question. Some of the critques of Plato seemed pretty solid, so how could a proclaimed genius say things that seemed so obviously stupid? That is why I started my study. I found, when I started reading him a whole new world of how words were put together, how thoughts flowed. It was like diving into water for the first time. I have always been an avid reader, but Plato made me dizzy--worlds apart from anything I had ever studied. You are habitualized by a culture of bad thought processes and don't understand it. It took me several readings of the entire dialogs to really start to catch on. Plato was no fool, those who critqued him, in their smugness were the fools, they thought they understood what they did not--and because of biological limitations could not. I kept up my studies until I could start to then use those ideas to see where even Plato fell short. That does not matter, him, and others like him were onto something very grand, and it was never developed. This is my hobby.
Man is not yet near the level of intelligence to comprehend Plato--even so, my goal is to demonstrate the implications of the ideas. Time lag in processing data may fascinate you, however, if you continue your studies a really grand universe of concepts will open to you. You will loose your respect for Einstein and those like him. What things seem to us is called appearance. We use the exact sciences to bring us down to the reality. Einstein and people like him, simply destroyed the foundation of reason, in order to make an appearance acceptable to simple minds.
I'm not sure what you are trying to do with all this.
I asked a question, you answered in what seemed to me as jargon and typical inner sanctum scribbles, to which I honestly reply that I do not see the point, after which I get a barrage of *not* answers or clarifications, but accusations and near-insults in an obviously cynical post.
Blind you say? Could very well be. But for what it's worth: I actually am interested in this. I just don't see what you are saying.
As such, I'll ask again:
1) What is it that you are saying, exactly (and clearly, if possible. I obviously haven't had the education you've had, so bear with me, please), and
2) How is it that this notion disproves the experimentally proven twin paradox?
Peace and goodwill to all men,
TimB
Take a few years to study Plato then, and the Elements of Euclid.
lol.
*Post full of gibberish*
"Can you clarify what you mean?"
*Another post of the same*
"Dude, I don't know what that means."
"Study ancient Greek philosophers for the next few years to understand a post on some forum."
I believe that time is only a perception. When you think about it memories on top of memories creates the illusion of time in our brains. Time seems to be a cause and effect compared to other causes and effects. I believe that time is a perception because without a human mind everything just happens. When people go to sleep and it feels like a second its because they are not precieving time as they do while awake. So without perception time doesn't exist and is only cause and effect.
/threadQuote:
Originally Posted by no-Name
Got me, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by no-Name
I came up with the same theory a year or two ago, if I understand what you're getting at correctly.
Time isn't an actual, physical thing, but rather the way that our mind sees things. This is proved by the existence of the 4th dimension in string theory.
I don't see what is so hard to understand. Obviously the past only exists in our minds as memories, the future only exists in our minds also, as hopes, fears, dreams, or fantasies. Everything only exists now. There is no reality to the past and the future. Somebody said that you can never be truly present because once you think that you are present then the moment has passed. That is the limitation of the mind, it makes us unaware of what is real now. One is present all the time, but when we think, we are not. It is not that we aren't here now, it is that we are hypnotized by even one thought and lose our lucidity. People are lost in thought. People are lost in the illusion of time. This is not a philosophy, this is the truth. One is in the moment when one is paying attention to something happening now, like listening to a great song. Not thinking 'about' it, but enjoying life. You cannot enjoy life if you are not in the moment. You cannot enjoy life if you are constantly thinking "about" life, or anything. A thought is a shadow cast on your lucid perception. You can look into your friend's eyes when having a conversation and you can see if they hear you or not. You can see if they are thinking about what they are going to say while you are talking. You can see if they are thinking about something outside of the conversation. You can see the shadow float in front of their eyes, and their eyes become dull and lifeless. If someone is paying attention and fully present, their eyes sparkle. Try it. Try it with your friends, with your coworkers or fellow students, with your parents, with the checkout lady, etc.... You will be surprised that almost everyone is dull and lost in time and not really living or paying attention to the world around them. Rather, they are literally only paying attention to their thoughts, the world inside their imaginations, while life keeps passing by. People who have lost their lucidity believe in time.
Ah yes... you're talking about being present in the moment.
People tend to have a confused notion of what time really is. Here's how I break this down...
Forget about any notion of Time, and instead start by thinking about our primitive ancestors. They lived in a frightening and unpredictable world - without the benefit of knowledge that today we take for granted. But they began to notice that there are certain cycles that repeat, such as seasons, days years etc. And they found that they could becoem a lot more efficient by creating visual aids to take advantage of these cycles, giving birth to clocks and calendars and timelines.
What these things measure really isn't TIME, it's simply movement. The movement of objects, like planets, stars, the tilting of the earth on its axis etc. These things tend to have cyclical rhythms and being able to measure those cycles really helps to master the environment... you know when to plant a crop or when it's going to snow or when to leave in order to get home by dark.
And now when we think about time we think about these graphic devices. Example, the montage of calendar pages flipping to show passage of months, or a clock running fast etc. These are very familiar images because they're so useful on movies, and also it makes it much easier to VISUALIZE a very abstract concept. My personal belief is that when people talk about time travel or turning back time or freezing time, it's because they're mistaking the visual REPRESENTATION of the passage of time with time. Time is not a line, it is not a chart or a circle... it is quite simply the fact that all things are in constant motion... planets, atoms etc.
How can the past exist when "the past" is just a way we talk about earlier cycles of movement?
It's not that Time is in a constant forward progression... it's just that all the atoms and planets etc are in constant motion... so it's a useful device, but essentially meaningless to speak of a "past" or a "future". Really these are abstract ideas - it's just a way for us to speak about things that have already happened or that haven't happened yet.
This is why I say that time is really a human construct. Some argue that time is not the construct, only that our measuring of it via clocks and calendars is the construct, but I don't see a difference. TIME does not exist... it's simply a way of measuring the movement of objects.
In a way, people would have a better understanding if we'd stop using these terms, and instead substitute them like this:
Time = movement
Past = memory
Future = prediction
Example, instead of saying "Time has passed" we should just say "Things have moved"
Rather than "a moment drops into the past" say "it's already become a memory"
And rather than "what does the future hold" it should be "what can we predict?"
A part of me understood and believed what you were saying, but another part was conflicted with the thought of "what about natural phenomena?" If the now only truly ever exists and past and future have no true reality to them, why is it that we observe so many phenomena and predictable patterns? How is it that we can predict things will happen in the future's "now" from the past's "now" so well? So I think while we experience time with it's cause and effect phenomena, there's another way of experiencing existence. If you try to experience life only through the now, minimizing thoughts, past and future, concepts of self and other "things" only being receptive to immediate experience, "riding on the razors edge of now" time phenomena might as well not exist from your reference. Since the amount energy/matter is conserved and cannot be created or destroyed, at any one moment the essence of the universe is unchanged. Phenomena through time is the perceived morphing of this essence through the concept of self and separate "things" but to be aware of the now is to be aware of and even to be the whole essence itself, that is essentially unchanged at any one moment. This seems to be the natural state of an infant, no concept of self or past and future, just in a timeless, unmanifested "oneness" with the the universe, a direct product of the perpetual creative force of "now" receptive only to immediate experience. Of course time seems very real and seems to be an essential part of our existence as well so there seems to be a working paradox here between time and the unchanged essence of existence that we can sway our attention back and forth by degrees.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut
Time is but the sunrise and sunset
All we are doing is measuring movement
I'm not entirely clear on exactly what this thread is about... is it the quantum idea that all of the past and all possible futures are somehow 'enfolded' in the present moment? If I understand it correctly (which is a long shot), isn't that what Schroedinger's Cat theory is trying to explain? That until you open the door, the cat is actually both alive and dead at the same time? And isn't that something that's only true at the quantum level?
Ooops... just noticed this is in the Inner Sanctum! So it's more of a philosophical/spiritual idea under discussion, though really it's the same thing as what Schroedinger was getting at, right?
Time exists in relation to physical entities, only physical entities can interact with other physical entities so time is a physical reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus of Suburbia
I disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut
... and my ignorance has reared its ugly head once again! Thanks for explaining that though. Guess I shouldn't bring things up if I really don't know what I'm talking about.
Maybe some quantum theories try to say that, but Schrodinger's cat is an example of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics in which two states (the cat being alive and dead) can exist simultaneously.
*WHOAH* :eek:
... You just proved time is an illusion! How did your post... the post I already read and responded to, move to under mine? :?
cause I hate the "last edited" thing under the post -_- lol
That's what I was trying to get at in my post, but I don't think I did a very good job at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkComrade
To the OP, yes I agree that the perception of time is an illusion
When you meditate, and your mind is deeply in the present, it may feel like time has slowed down, that's why people who meditate or people who are present a lot look younger than they really are, and age much slower
Depending on how deep your concentration is on the things your being mindful of, they will seem like the only thing that exist to you. It's kind of hard to explain. Everything else that you aren't paying attention to has drifted away. A good feeling, like a vacation for the mind
I don't see how this can be explained logically, imho it can only be experienced
Yes! You get it. All the phenomena of shapes, colors, sounds, smells, sensations, etc. are all transitory illusions giving the illusion of time, from the perspective of absolutely pure perception. The essence is unchanging. The essence is timeless. It is always present. It appears that the Universe has been created a long time ago at the beginning of time. But, in fact, it is created NOW constantly. Or at least it is sustained NOW by the essence. Without the essence there is no time, there is no Universe, there is no phenomena. But if you take away Time, the Universe, all phenomena and thought, you are left with the essence as it is. When you recognize the essence you will be with the ones who have recognized it through all time, past and future, all sitting together around the fire. This fire (that is what I call the mystery beyond space and time around which the beings sit who recognize it. But they always come back. The way to transcend even that is to jump into the fire and let it consume you. That is how you become one with the essence and dissolve all phenomena and become the stuff the Universe is made of without losing the awareness of yourself as the whole timeless essence. Then everywhere is this fire and only this fire.) always exists here and now in the very heart of your being shining out through everything that appears to exist giving it reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfaerer
But there is also a relative reality, which you nailed, that time appears very real, that the Universe appears very real, and this is the paradox that is at the heart of every philosophical idea. This paradox is in music, art, science, mysticism, atoms, Universes, etc. In everything this same paradox lives. And this paradox is what makes this whole thing possible. And this is why there are so many avenues to knowledge. When things seem contradictory, like there is no time, but there is, that place where the two contradictions meet and become one is where the real truth is. It is the Tao. That is why arguing and converting are so useless, because nobody is right but they both are.