Toltec Sorcery, the Ancient Ones, the Old sorcerers, the New Sorcerers, the Seers and the New Seers.

So folks, I thought that it would be good to start a thread where we can discuss Native American sorcery. As you might know, it is applicable to the topic of dreaming, but so much more than that. We should not get hung up on lucid dreaming if we aspire to become naguals.

In this thread, it is my intention to share what I know about Toltec sorcery, which isn't a whole lot. I am learning from a teacher about it, but she ridicules me all the time. I would also like to hear input from any of you out there who also know something about it.
But I would like us to cover all topics within this amazing organic system, from history to allies, from flyers to assemblage points, to scouts, etc....

This subject is far too much for me to get started writing about now, so I am only writing this introduction. Feel free to get the ball rolling.

Lets talk about other worlds that contain energy.
From my experience there are other dream worlds and dimensions that have gigantic sources of energy that you can take from. It is like a giant whitish blue ball like this

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumbla...8283ty342W.jpg

The whitish blue energy is power.
I'm feeling kind of out of it because I've been releasing large amounts of dark energy for the past day so I don't think I can talk about it much more now. I've been throwing up in my dreams it feels so bad.

If you think Castaneda represents true toltec teachings... I think that is false... It's common of them to ridicule new people LOL. I often hear preached when one sees no one is more or less greater... everything is equal. A warrior is light and fluid and strives for freedom... But they way they try to get you to this level is trying to limit your freedom by saying that their path is the only way. often if you haven't learned to "see," like they do they treat you as a lesser human.

I have spent a lot of time speaking with so called toltec masters under the castaneda doctrine, and I can tell you it is driven by big egos who also preach that the ego must be killed. Virtually none if it is really spiritual, it is meant to break your will unto them while preaching that it is the opposite!

I'd be wary of someone who ridiculed you. The only useful advice that I got from castaneda brand of toltec wisdom, is to not go against yourself. And to only follow the path with heart. Practice just those two things with your toltec teacher and you will see for yourself if he is truly a spiritual master...

and keep in mind if you spend time with actual native american sorcerers, attend sweat lodges and go on vision quests and so on... you will see for yourself that castaneda toltec sorcery in no way represents Native american sorcery.

Yes, my benefactor? has told me a lot about how Carlos failed. She didn't ridicule me to make me feel bad, she ridiculed my flyer, my self importance. But she let it go before I did. This was in the beginning. Now she is a good friend and I am grateful to her.
As for Native American, I use that term to include the Toltecs as well as the Lakota and Hopi etc. I have participated in many ceremonies and I agree that they are totally different than what one would read in a book by Carlos. I have done peyote ceremonies and witnessed a few sundance ceremonies and been in quite a few sweat lodges. These are the people's ceremonies, but I am more interested in the Sorcerer's way. I have no desire or feel the need to hang by eagle claws pierced through my chest for three days in the sun and dark night and day. Sounds like crucification. I have found my ally and am learning how to communicate with it more.

This ball of bluish light looks similar to something I experience, but it is more golden white light and looks like an infinite disco ball where every facet is a unique universe. In this world, everythiing is upside down and inside out. What we thought was space is substance, and what we thought was substance is space. When we thought we were standing on our feet we were standing on our heads. The ones in the inner circle near the center of the fire pit are people from all time who have made it there and we are all together. The tops of our heads all merge together into the invisible sun, as I call it.

The evolution of consciousness of the sorcerers from the Neolithic until now is very interesting. We have just entered a realm of new possibilities in permanent heightened awareness thanks to a new sorcerer who is a new seer.

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I have no desire or feel the need to hang by eagle claws pierced through my chest for three days in the sun and dark night and day. Sounds like crucification. I have found my ally and am learning how to communicate with it more.

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I want to do that!!!!! That would be awesome!!!!!!

What, hang by eagle claws? Or communicate with your ally?

hang by eagle claws. it sounds amazing.

I am not familiar with Toltec sorcery, but am definitely interested in hearing about it! Something about the ancient ones seems familiar though...

It sounds like you are also talking about the inter-connective ways of life that are woven together. Lately I've been recognizing a more deep and primal feeling or energy during the day or in meditation. And I do not know for sure, but it seems like there are layers and realms reachable by meditation or dreaming that are not so "mainstream", but have been accessed by people since time immemorial. Although, I do not know what these places are specifically or know what to do with them even if I could access them. If I am perceiving things correctly, its kind of a mystery, because there is more "out there" than definitely meets the eye. Perhaps these are layers outside of my usual realm of meditation, but I've definitely started to recognize different levels that are more subconscious and subtle... at least subtle for now. I don't know if this relates to Native American sorcery or Toltec sorcery, but its like I've been beginning to notice something more ancient and primal out there.

So you got to experience some of their native ceremonies? That sounds so cool, I bet there are so many things to learn or see from them.

Excellent idea for a thread!! One thing I'm very interested in is the similarities between the Toltec and other approaches - like Buddhism for instance.

I know in Castaneda Don Juan always ridiculed him like you said your benefactor did you Dannon, and the purpose was to dissipate his self-importance, which would equate with the Buddhist concept that the Ego is not the self, but is only a mask we hide behind (that most people assume is the self) and that the way to enlightenment is to separate yourself from it - to essentially kill the Ego. I see Ego as one of the main problems in today's world (at least in America) - thanks to gangsta rap and reality TV kids grow up believing that the cool way to be is egotistical and arrogant. I know there's a form of Eastern belief (is it a branch of Buddhism?) where the masters laugh all the time as if everything s the biggest joke (are they called Bodhisatvas? I used to know this, but my memory is crap!). This sounds similar to the Toltec concepts to me - to reduce the ego and not take things so seriously.

Also energy... Don Juan would say you need to build up energy before you can even begin to See, and this is done if I remember correctly by Not Doing, which sounds to me pretty much like meditation. Basically it sounds like the different methods all revolve around the same basic truths. Would the Toltec Energy equate pretty closely with Prana in Yoga?

A good teacher always ridicules time to time. Questioning beliefs is the key.

I am not familiar with Native American sorcery, I have read some of Castanedas books but that is about it. I just wrote to this thread to subscribe and see how it rolls on. My own input is that, as practicioner of shamanism, there are too much similarities in native shamanism all around the globe ( which can be also added into the label of sorcery in certain cases ) to be just coinsequence. Be it indian, inuit, australian, siberian or african they all have so much in common.

Oh and Darkmatters, I think the energy concept is same in all cultures.. ki, chi, prana, mana, psi whatever it is, it behaves in the same way and is gathered and cultivated with almost same techniques. Meditation is key for most of them and shift of mindstate to trance. I personally think it is all about achieving the correct trance mind state.

And it's a very interesting fact that all of these early shamanistic/sorcerous practices also involve lucid dreaming. Seems inevitable really.

I never really read the Castaneda books, so my understanding here is zilch. For some reason, I feel like the Toltec sorcerers are likened to hillbilly mechanic, they can take apart a car engine in 20 minutes flat( or faster), understand how every component works without the detailed understanding, and yet have that too without the rigid education. Real down to earth people, that just take life as it comes, without shoving their whillywacker into everything thinking they know it all. Maybe a bit too quiet in terms of their techniques, but thats because they have a pure conceptual belief system, not a lot of dogma( this guy does this, all other gods are false, don't exist. I would like to know their views on drugs.

I can say from the Castaneda books that the sorcerers use Peyote (some type of cactus-top buttons dried and eaten) and mushrooms of some kind, plus smoke Jimson Weed (very dangerous - it can kill if used wrong). They have a different name for it though. They also use a mixture of various herbs. These would of course all be used in ritual ways, sometimes alone sometimes more socially, in order to help them make contact with powerful entities that then help them along their journey. I just saw a web page (no idea if it's accurate) saying that apparently Toltec shamans (opposed to sorcerers) don't believe in using drugs? Lol, idk.

I believe Dannon has extremely limited internet access these days unfortunately. But I know there are other people on the board who know a lot about this stuff. Hope to hear from some of them.

I know practically very little about these cultures and their practices and concepts. I never heared of them either before you mentioned them and it sounds very interesting. I can't wait to hear about ur insights and experiences with these people! It's not often that can hear stories from first-hand experience with interesting cultures that most of us industrialist slave traders never took interest to learn about. I hope to be in ur position one day and live and learn with these rich cultures.

Regarding drug usage with these practices. As I said before, I know a lot about northern tradition ( surprise really ) and little about everything else. But around here and Siberia I think people have had limited usage of drugs since there aren't as much suitable plants as in southern climates. Mushrooms and certain poisonous plants are used around here. There is this certain mushroom that even grows near me that grants hallucinations and visions. But using it is a bit risky because I have no idea how to properly handle and dose it in right amounts.

Some people I know do that, but they use other drugs as well and not always with the same reasons I would do that.

They didn't use jimson weed in the castenada books. That's datura stramonium. They used either datura inoxia or datura meteloides. Jimson weed is a second rate member of the family.

Thanks for clarifying. I don't remember why I thought that's what it was, probably googled it and wasn't careful enough with terminology.

I like to believe the Toltecs were once a highly advanced race, socially and esoterically, due to their profound insights. Granted all historical evidence points to a pretty brutal people but supposedly the Toltecs started off as incredible mystics and were corrupted by their egos so they turned to dark magic and sacrifice.

My only source of information for "Toltec beliefs" comes from Castaneda's books... but with regard to drug use I could offer the following; when Carlos asks Don Juan why he made him use 'power plants' so many times Don Juan says that its, "... because you're so stupid". (Meaning -insensitive- to the world around you.) The drugs were the fastest way to throw his perceptual focus way out into left field. The fastest way to cause him to examine items of perception of which he was previously unaware. The preferred method of affecting one's consciousness is through meditation and controlled dreaming practices. Drugs are a double-edged sword, they might sever the ties that bind quickly but they are just as likely to maim the person weilding the sword. For that reason, I would recommend to anyone interested in reading the works of Carlos Castaneda that they skip the first two books entirely and perhaps come back to them after having read all of the rest in the series.

I used to practice a lot, now I'm just interested in leaving.

Well said. Don Juan used power plants only as tools to force Carlos to realize that what we percieve in the real world is only one of an infinite number of interpretations.

I read a book about Toltec dreaming, and was fascinated by the mention of obsidian mirrors and their usefullness to train awareness. I remember doing this as a kid: gaze into a mirror and see if you can make your face change, or dissapear altogether. Has anyone here heard of anything like this?

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

I like to believe the Toltecs were once a highly advanced race, socially and esoterically, due to their profound insights. Granted all historical evidence points to a pretty brutal people but supposedly the Toltecs started off as incredible mystics and were corrupted by their egos so they turned to dark magic and sacrifice.

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Quoting Castaneda (Don Juan)
"The deepest flaw of unseasoned warriors is that they are willing to forget the wonder of what they see. They become overwhelmed by the fact that they see and believe that it's their genius that counts.A seasoned warrior must be a paragon of discipline in order to override the nearly invincible laxness of our human condition. More important than seeing is what warriors DO with what they see."

This tendency is evident in almost all of the posts here. It is easy to group all of the ancient ones and sum up their efforts based on those who failed- The ones who fail are those we are left with while others move on....