Are ghosts a real phenomena or not? If so, what are they? If not how can you explain the phenomenon?
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Are ghosts a real phenomena or not? If so, what are they? If not how can you explain the phenomenon?
i voted def. not.
And what do you mean by ''what creates the illusion''. Like, why do people believe they exist or something?
My guess for most "ghost encounters" is that when we're in the dark, we can't see very well. The brain fills the huge gaps in visual data with primal imagery, like people, animals, etc. The other "encounters" are probably hallucinations due to other factors like hypnagogia, schizophrenia, drugs. As for "poltergeists", well those people are just plain lying.
Also, maybe people long time ago used to tell stories about ghosts and one thing led to another and people believe them now
Well my view on it its like this. I have not experienced anything of it, this is just book knowledge. So I cant clam this being 'correct'.
Lets say that:
- Everyone consist of physical body, astral body and a mental body.
- Everything is energy, with a different levels of vibration.
After you experience physical death your Astral body separates and lives a bit more in the Astral plane. Astral plane is just something with a different vibration level then physical wold.
Time spent in Astral plane depends on the life energy you had. Eventually your astral body 'dies' too, your mental body separates until you eventually reunite with God, Universal energy, Life, or whatever you believe in.
For the time spent in Astral plane, if you have enough energy, control and Will power you can actually make your astral body vibrate so it can be felt in some way in physical world.
So someone can feel that as a 'ghost'. But I really doubt that anyone after death will be interested in doing this :)
Besides, that. Many claim that there are some sorts of conciseness life in Astral plane. So maybe some people who are more sensitive can actually feel them or attract them from time to time.
And see this as some sort of ghosts.
Also, when some sort of medium communicates with a dead person. He is not really communicating with them. But with their memories left in the Astral plane.
No one is waiting around for a relative to contact them and ask about where they hid the money. :)
So 'are ghosts real' depends on your definition of a ghost.
I see assertions but no evidence. I could easily come up with an entirely different scheme of reality that's equally plausible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan452
That is why I said that I cant claim this being 'correct' at the very start.
And what kind of evidence did u expect? A ghost in a bottle and a digital picture of him uploaded to forum? :)
When I hear people reciting there anecdotal ghost stories I notice two things. 1) (and this is a minor detail) is that most people with ghost experiences are predominately religious, I never met an atheist who has seen a ghost. Perhaps this implies that religious people are "more open" to the supernatural or the occult than atheists (or it could imply that people in question just use faulty logic to establish the existence of supernatural entities whether it be ghosts or gods). Also the dead being resurrected as well as a belief in the after life are ubiquitous features in religion.
2) Most ghost stories I hear (keep in mind I'm talking about real peoples personal accounts with "ghosts" and not fairytales) are based off of extremely flimsy evidence. For example usually someone hears a noise in the dark and upon inspection no source for the sound can be found so the apparent next logical step is to attribute the noise to a dead persons spirit...
Anyway here is an interesting quote that doesn't really fit into the context of the rest of my post but I think it is interesting nonetheless:
"To be haunted by a ghost is to remember what one has never lived in the present... Modern technology, contrary to appearances, increases tenfold the power of ghosts." Jacques Derrida
Sorry stormcrow, but I don't understand the quote.
I voted probably not because I've never encountered evidence for it. I'd say I'm pretty open to things like that. When I was younger, I was very suggestible. I was introverted, used to talk to spirits I believed were there, I often daydreamed and stared at nothing to the point of people commenting a lot, etc. I'm less like that now, but it seems I was the type of person who should be open to seeing ghosts if any existed. Not once in my life have I experienced anything that I'd consider evidence for anything paranormal.
As for other people's testimony... I'm sorry but for a claim this huge, I'd need to either see it for myself in such a way that I judge it to likely be a ghost, or have it scientifically proven. Most of the stories can be dismissed, as stormcrow was saying. Quite often, the person claiming to have seen a ghost has just woken up or is falling asleep, making it very likely that he or she is hallucinating. Also, for the bigger claims, people are prone to make this kind of thing up, for attention or whatever other reason.
sometimes when its dark with maybe one small light on (so pretty dark) you might see wisps or air here and there
well, at least i do :D
and they arent floaters
Floater - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I wasn't sure whether I should have posted it or not considering it didn't necessarily contribute to my points. First of all I think what he is getting at in the first sentence (which is the most significant part of the quote) is that ghosts are (psychological) manifestations of a persons longing to return to this idealized state where they are united with their loved ones. Usually when we remember deceased loved ones we have a tendency to idealize them, remembering only the positive aspects of that persons life. Ghosts are abstractions from the personality and memories of that particular loved one, they exist in the present only through memory. Someone who lives in the past, like a memory, is as dead as the ghost they fantasize about. I don't think I'm gonna try to interpret the bit about technology, this post is already riddled with enough nonsense for one day. Haha I know you are going to shake your head at this post Cmind.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmind
I think I know what you're talking about. When I'm in a dark room with a single light source, I seem to see these ghostly wispy things emanate from edges (edges of doors, tables, etc.), and they appear to move outward from the source as my eyes naturally move about. My guess is that it's related to my astigmatism making my brain work harder to hold the images, so there's sometimes a bleed-over effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarflare
If you're saying that ghosts can sometimes be a visual manifestation of a subconscious desire to be reunited with dead loved ones, then I could believe that.Quote:
Originally Posted by stormcrow
Some facts:
Paranormal experiences are a rare phenomenon, most people do not encounter them. When they do encounter them, it does not distinguish between religion however different religions are likely to take a different position on the events. When encountering inexplicable phenomenon, your interpretation of it is based off your cultural background. For people who are more open to the idea of spirits because they are very religious, things such as sounds or whatever can be used to justify the existence of ghosts while a very skeptical person is more likely to write it off. A low-minded christian is likely to think there's an evil presence lurking. A new-agey person is likely to think a lost spirit needs help.
One thing that makes skeptics write ghosts off rather quickly is the obvious effect expectation has on their likelihood to exist. When studying hauntings, it becomes clear they respond more to people who expect them greater or have a greater imagination, and they pick on these people. Because I lean toward the idea that attention gives objects their mass, this resonates with me just fine. Plenty of people find expectation a reason to disqualify ghosts entirely, but to me it makes perfect sense, especially considering the effect the presence of believers have on a non-believers ability to experience the phenomenon.
Then you have occurrences that escape explanation such as sudden temperature drops, electronic voice phenomenon, etc... These are things that do require an explanation besides "they're lying."
I watched this a few weeks ago. It's pretty long, about an hour, but Derren Brown is always entertaining (to me). He discusses ghost claims and follows around a guy who claims to have years' worth of experience dealing with ghosts and have indisputable proof that they're real, including electronic voice phenomena.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPDvEXS-71g
its 9 minutes :/
EDIT: oh, theres 6 parts :D
I say no. The ghosts in pop culture are just trickery and screenwriting, how many people do you know have had "encounters" with evidence that didn't have any outside motivation? (Money, fame, publicity, attention, drugs, etc etc.) Also, if you think about it, how much of dreaming and sleep paralysis is like a ghost encounter?
Excerpt from my dream journal:
Quote:
My brother and I were walking around a neighborhood that was a memorial of WWII, it had grand architecture and was made of near-golden bricks. It was very pretty and classical music was playing throughout the neighborhood. It didn't seem like anyone lived there, all the houses had no lights, there were no cars or trash cans on the driveways. It was like a mausoleum. Kinda creepy, but it was sunny out and there were birds and trees so it was peaceful too. No reason to worry. John Zaffis from Haunted Collector was there giving us a tour, I knew this would be bad. We went into one of the houses and it looked exactly the way I thought it would look. Like a Crypt.
He started talking about what ghosts can do to you and I imagined I saw every piece of weird paranormal activity I have ever seen on the show (which is like 2 and a half episodes, I don't believe in ghosts, they are kinda boring, not really scary). I saw people's faces being translucent, civil war bullets floating toward me, the lights exploding, the works. Normally I'd start laughing at the ridiculousness of it, but with my logic shut down and my brain overflowing with Id, I sprinted out of there as fast as possible, I tripped, couldn't move. The bullets were flying toward me and the ghost hovered over me. I thought that it reminded me of Dementors and then 4 Dementors came in and gave me the kiss of death. BOOM I'm awake and still feeling sleep paralysis, I can imagine why people think that a ghost is sucking the soul out of them since its kinda like a weight on your chest. Half a second later its gone.
Thats pretty much what I'm trying to articulate (rather badly) yes. I think ghosts exist only as a memory in the human mind not physically.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmind
The inability to explain these events doesn't mean that ghosts actually do exist. I know that isn't exactly what you are saying but I just wanted to throw that out there. Personally I think people who "experience" the paranormal really do genuinely believe that there experience was authentic, however there are people in the insane asylum who "talk to god every day" and honestly believe this to be true but that simply doesn't make it true. I'm not saying people who experience the paranormal are insane but I do believe that many paranormal experiences are a result of cognitive biases and other psychological states. Of course there are many that lie about these experiences, I'm sure. Do you have any paranormal stories to share?Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
It is a problem if a skeptic writes off the idea of ghosts automatically and not even considering it in the realm of possibilities. However if a believer writes off all other possible explanations leaving ghosts as the only possible explanation for the event in question, well that's a problem too. In both of these instances, neither party is exercising their critical thinking skills to their full extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Nothing substantial, I'm looking into ghosts scientifically for the purpose of this topic so I'm sticking to commonalities, studies and research if at all possible. I may not seem it on the forum but I'm actually very skeptical IRL. I'm just not afraid to advocate things I haven't convinced myself of. For me, there's plenty of "feeling" associated with creepy places that seems to be different depending on where I'm at. For instance this house I'm at right now is well lit, elegant, properly modernized... there's nothing creepy about it. But everyone here feels a presence and people typically have trouble being here alone. Since I've been here alone for a week, I've noticed there's a lot of energy collecting in the hallway. This isn't a creepy hallway I dislike crossing. It can be very well lit and even if it wasn't I've more than faced my fear of darkness. (Pitch black hallways do not create this feeling) It just feels like there's something there. I came to this conclusion before anyone ever told me they thought it was haunted. That's all I can say.
If you want to understand why people believe in ghosts, just watch one of those paranormal shows where somebody gets an exorcist or the like in.
Pretty hilarious shit.
Those are great, you should see the alcatraz one. That psychic was acting way off her rocker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Some of them are pretty strange though. Like the one I saw about the haunted house where they found a secret room behind their closet. The room had crayon drawings in it and was nailed shut by boards, but for some reason the guy decided rather than file a report he would remodel his house to account for this secret room. His wife complained about a child's voice in the dead of night, they hired some paranormal investigators who recorded EVPs of some guy yelling "I want you out!" and some children crying. They hired a psychic to cleanse the house and she said some guy was kidnapping and raping or torturing children locked in that room. I found this story hard to fake, I mean sure the psychic and paranormal investigators could have been given preconceived expectations off-camera but srsly... srsly that's way fucked up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8E1a63NB2c&feature=player_detailpageQuote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Hey its from a reputable source, the Spiritual Science Research Foundation.:movingmrgreen:
I like the more mundane ones. I just mentioned it because I saw one today, it was hilarious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
It was these two women basically just feeding off themselves. At one point they walked past a cupboard and the door swung open a bit. They went fucking nuts.
It seems the ghost is making some liquid protrude from my pants!Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Oh no now it's making it happen to my pants too!
When my cousin, Lydia, was a teenager she lived in an old house with her sister and my aunt and uncle. One night my uncle was out with friends, my aunt was working late as a nurse, and my other cousin was staying over at a friends house, so Lydia was home alone. She was in her bedroom reading a book, all the lights were on, when a girl suddenly appeared in her room. Lydia dropped the book and pulled the bed covers up to herself huddling in the corner, she was too terrified to speak. The girl was standing just inside the doorway, had long black hair, and was wearing a nightgown. Lydia said she looked like a real girl...but then she tried to speak...and quickly vanished. Lydia was paralyzed with fear. She eventually got up enough courage to reach for her telephone and call a friend to come over. She said it was terrifying, and there's no doubt in her mind that it was ghost. She has no reason to lie about such an experience.
There was another experience she had, an even stranger one. There's a highway near where we live called the Highway to Heaven, because of all the fatal crashes that have happened there. One night Lydia and her friend were driving home along that highway when they saw a car coming up fast behind them. The car was swerving and beeping its horn...and Lydia got as far over to the shoulder as she could. They watch as this old style car, something straight out of the 60s' flies past them. It appears to have three passengers, two women, a man, and a male driver. They had obviously been drinking. The car speeds off into the distance and Lydia and her friend breath a sigh of relief. But a few miles down the road they see headlights of a car that had run off a bridge and was lying upsidedown. They could barely see that it was the same car, and slow down to ask if anyone needs help. This is in the early 80s so no cell phones. My cousin speeds off to the nearest phone to call the police. They meet up with the police and an ambulance and my cousin goes along to show them exactly where the crash happened. They searching and searching but never found any evidence of a car accident. Never found the car or the bodies. Nothing. When my cousin is back at the police station giving a statement the chief asks if she's fucking around with him...because a similar accident just like that did actually happen. But it was like 20 years earlier. Two guys and two girls died in that exact same spot, even the description of the car was correct, and the report said alcohol had been involved. My cousin believes she witnessed a past event. Again, she has no reason to make something like this up. After having all these strange things happen to her throughout her life she realized that she is a psychic, and I will admit, she's a very good one.