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    Thread: does meditating become fun???

    1. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      Nice, I agree with the above post except for one little point. Maybe at first meditation may seem like conditioning the mind. But in fact, the whole purpose is to uncondition the mind. To allow the mind to relax in its natural unconditioned state.
      It might help you to know about the stages of meditation. These are not beliefs, but the stages of meditation everyone who meditates successfully goes through, no matter what their tradition or beliefs.
      I agree that one is reaching a state that feels like it's unconditioned, or rather yet, a form of unconscious regression and a state of submission (since you are accepting what comes to you and not resisting; which is what people would associate as letting yourself shift away from the ego). I admit that I didn't explain a bit further on what happens after a person conditioned themselves, I was mostly focusing on the beginning where mental blocks are a little harder to ease off from until a person has reached whatever state of hypnosis:

      Which are 3 (in terms of depth)

      Light (Lethargic), Cataleptic (Medium), Somnambulistic (Deep)

      Most people go through the lethargic state at first (newcomers) where they feel like they can't "fight" the urge to sleep when in fact learning to just be aware and build up awareness is more beneficial than fixating on destroying the urge to sleep.

      And from there, the other two states can be defined with getting into certain brain frequencies/waves --> (where all forms of meditation can start being applied).

      (And I know meditation stages don't seem like conditioned responses at first, but when you do it more and more when it becomes "natural," that's what I meant by it being a conditioned response, but it's goes by so fast it doesn't feel conditioned).

      It's sort of hard to explain it, but let's take an easy example.

      Having 360 Vision in Lucid Dreams (or AP if you're willing to go that far):

      It's an experience that just cannot be explained in words at first (before waking up), you just experience it. You start seeing how the mind automatically fills the gaps of the sensation to near perfection of the 360 vision (when you turn left, you're not literally turning left, you're just used to having to shift your body in reality that it transcends into the lucid dreaming experience).

      It's more of just shifting your consciousness at a specific point, but you would see it as vision alternating since the brain still uses preconceptions of reality into a lucid dream (until a person does it often where they know it's just shifting their consciousness).

      Another example would be a Point A to Point B type of lucid dream: You're really shifting consciousness from one point to another, but when you wake up, you would recall it as an experience. Because the brain can only conceptualize things within this dimension through experiences and such, this is why I included that it's a conditioned response, since after all, you would still need your brain to get into the "natural unconditioned state."

      It becomes "Natural" because your brain conditioned itself based on its limits of this dimension to conceptualize and solidify it as an experience, but for you shifting consciousness into the natural unconditioned state, it can go from anywhere (which is when your stages of meditation starts getting more practical).

      From that point, when your consciousness is able to get through those limits of the brain with ease, that's when you get into the state when things feel as if they could go on forever, and the more you magnify the few seconds, you as an individual can learn more within a short amount of time. (I'm trying to mention time dilation or deep meditation, but I know that might make people react a certain way).

      Another example (I mentioned this in another thread) to show how one has to get their minds into that natural unconditioned state:

      Imagine your subconscious/mind near a pool of water (but anywhere I say "you" in the example below, just imply it's the subconscious and parts it uses to process the experience of meditation).

      Instead of going into it in one go, you would take your feet to test how hot or cold it is. Then you would make gradual shifts/steps into getting your whole body in the water. This is how it would feel for beginners, but when you practice it enough, subconsciously, it goes WAY faster because your subconscious knows that whatever conditioned response you use to meditate (either sitting down or imagining a dot when you look behind your closed eyes) it will go through the gradual shifts faser.

      And since it goes faster, you barely even recognize it, thus having the feeling it becomes "natural" or "unconditioned."

      So in short:

      1. When you meditate, it's first a conditioned response that's gradual, because your subconscious is reformatting how the stages to get to a high state of suggestibility works.

      2. Once it's accustomed to that reformatting (conditioning how it works for your desire of a specific goal (meditation)), then it starts getting faster, which to you feels "natural" and "unconditioned" because you barely see how the responses are being expressed.

      3. From there, then your principles of the stages of meditation would apply when you're done with meditating because the brain conceptualizes it as an experience. And how would it interpret experiences? An example would be the pictures you showed of the steps/stages of meditation.

      Hope this makes sense.
      Last edited by Linkzelda; 02-17-2013 at 03:09 PM.

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      Hypnosis is conditioning, it is trance. Meditation is completely opposite. No trance, no somnambulism, no catalepsy, etc. Do you think enlightenment is a trance? lol. Two different things. Hypnosis=/=meditation. You can tell someone's level of experience by listening to their description. Where are you getting subconscious from? Meditation has nothing to do with subconscious, in fact subconscious is delusion to even believe in it.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      Hypnosis is conditioning, it is trance. Meditation is completely opposite. No trance, no somnambulism, no catalepsy, etc.
      So you're telling me when you go into a deep state of meditation, that it happens just like that without going into levels of trances? You're telling me that meditation is not an altered state of consciousness from the default waking consciousness? You're telling me hypnosis is not getting into a trance either?

      And since meditation has no state of being Lehargic (feeling drowsy/sleepy/tiredness) at some point, that people who are relaxing their bodies during meditation wouldn't have those states prevalent at all? Lol.

      Do you think enlightenment is a trance? lol.
      Enlightenment is an endeavor, a goal to reach. So when people use "meditation" to reach a goal, it becomes a form of hypnosis. Because hypnosis is goal-oriented, while meditation is a form of "seeing what's happening" and NOT being fixated on a particular goal, they have aspects that are the same to each other.

      It depends on whether or not you're using a westernized definition of hypnosis (where people think they give up voluntary actions, which is not the case)

      People tend to think that because they enter a trance, they wouldn't be able to recall an event, when it fact examples of light states of trances would be when you drive a car, and while you're busy speculating on other things, you somehow are able to get to your destination. (You're in a trance, but it's a light state of trance because again, you're passively aware)...

      Passively aware doesn't mean not aware at all, it's in-between, half-conscious/semi-concious.

      The same with watching TV. You're fixating on the content within the device, passively acknowledging the environment around you. (Light trance)

      The same when you're "meditating" while working in the office...you fixate on contemplation while being passively aware of your environment. (You go into a trance)

      So when you seek enlightenment (which is a goal-oriented endeavor), you are fixating on the outcome to get there. Meditation has a goal itself: seeks to not be be goal-striving/goal-seeking (which is what enlightenment is sustained by); which is why it's just a specialized use of hypnosis.

      ---> If aiming to be aimless and non-striving is not a goal to you, then tell me what it really is then.

      Two different things. Hypnosis=/=meditation. You can tell someone's level of experience by listening to their description.
      So if meditation is to be goal-less essentially (based on what I said above), you're saying that enlightenment is not getting yourself into a trance to condition yourself into expectations of reaching enlightenment?

      If enlightenment is a goal, and you're using meditation (which is to be goal-less, to just SEE what is SHOWING TO YOU without EXPECTATIONS and NOT engaging in that experience for too long)...don't you see the major contradiction there?

      That's why I'm saying meditation is similar to hypnosis in general, since it has a goal to just aim to be aware of as many things as possible, but not fixate on just one thing.

      I would said meditation (again) is just a specialized use of hypnosis, or specialized use of getting into trances to experience it.

      Third Eye Meditation => goal-oriented in reaching a state pertaining to aspects of third-eye fundamentals

      Merkaba Meditation => goal-oriented in reaching a state pertaining to aspects of Merkaba fundamentals

      Nirvana => same thing

      Seeking enlightenment through meditation ==> Same thing.


      Where are you getting subconscious from?
      It's just a label I'm using, I'm not saying it's just breaking down your subconscious, obviously it involves other aspects of your mind. I admit I'm using it too loosely, but generally if you want to aim for something, it's best to understand how the subconscious works (setting mantras in present tense for example to make them more efficient)

      Meditation has nothing to do with subconscious, in fact subconscious is delusion to even believe in it.
      Right. So the part of your mind that you're not generally aware of, that can influence your thoughts and actions is delusional to believe in it.

      That makes perfect sense.

      When a person says a mantra "I am relaxed," suddenly, the subconscious plays no role whatsoever in influencing the goal within the mantra.

      That absolutely makes perfect sense then.



      So the next time I use meditation as a relaxation induction method, and I say "Relax" as a mantra, I'll just completely disregard the subconscious and other aspects of my mind that would work towards initiating that goal.

      I'll just assume it's magical fairies that take the role and do everything for me while I go seek enlightenment. Yes, that does sound like a remarkable inference!
      Last edited by Linkzelda; 02-17-2013 at 07:08 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Linkzelda View Post
      You're telling me hypnosis is not getting into a trance either?
      Hypnosis IS trance work.

      And since meditation has no state of being Lehargic (feeling drowsy/sleepy/tiredness) at some point, that people who are relaxing their bodies during meditation wouldn't have those states prevalent at all? Lol.
      There is relaxation in proper meditation, but not trance.



      Enlightenment is an endeavor, a goal to reach. So when people use "meditation" to reach a goal, it becomes a form of hypnosis. Because hypnosis is goal-oriented, while meditation is a form of "seeing what's happening" and NOT being fixated on a particular goal, they have aspects that are the same to each other.
      You have the right idea about meditation there when you say it is not goal oriented. But when meditation is used as a means to achieve an end then it devolves into hypnosis but it won't work because hypnosis cannot go outside of trance. The sad thing is that the word enlightenment makes it sound goal oriented. But in fact, if it is a goal, it will never be achieved. It can only happen here and now (not in the future) as "seeing things as they really are". Just like in a dream the dream character cannot meditate and achieve enlightenment. That is illusion. The dream character cannot hope to achieve lucidity later in the dream. Lucidity only happens here and now.

      It depends on whether or not you're using a westernized definition of hypnosis (where people think they give up voluntary actions, which is not the case)

      People tend to think that because they enter a trance, they wouldn't be able to recall an event, when it fact examples of light states of trances would be when you drive a car, and while you're busy speculating on other things, you somehow are able to get to your destination. (You're in a trance, but it's a light state of trance because again, you're passively aware)...

      Passively aware doesn't mean not aware at all, it's in-between, half-conscious/semi-concious.

      The same with watching TV. You're fixating on the content within the device, passively acknowledging the environment around you. (Light trance)
      I agree. Those are all trance states. In fact, day to day life is just wandering through different trance states. Most people have never experienced freedom from trance. Only enlightenment is free from trance states. Our own mind hypnotizes us. That constant chatter of thoughts and conceptual mind is the biggest trance. Meditation is allowing yourself to come out of trance slowly by being present and aware and alert. Sure, different layers of trance are gone through as we see through them and let them go.

      So when you seek enlightenment (which is a goal-oriented endeavor), you are fixating on the outcome to get there. Meditation has a goal itself: seeks to not be be goal-striving/goal-seeking (which is what enlightenment is sustained by); which is why it's just a specialized use of hypnosis.
      Seeking enlightenment is a neurotic fallacy. Enlightenment cannot be created. I totally agree with your description of meditation, except it is not hypnosis. I am interested though in using hypnosis to anchor states of mind discovered in meditation, however.
      ---> If aiming to be aimless and non-striving is not a goal to you, then tell me what it really is then.
      That is tricky. Aiming to be aimless is a goal, and as such is a fallacy. We cannot aim to be aimless, or strive to be non-striving. This is the same game and is a trance in itself. So meditation is just observing this predicament with neutral awareness, and not trying to fix it. In fact, the dream character is the one who is aiming to be aimless and striving to be non-striving. Enlightened awareness just watches the dream character try to do the impossible with infinite patience. That is meditation.


      So if meditation is to be goal-less essentially (based on what I said above), you're saying that enlightenment is not getting yourself into a trance to condition yourself into expectations of reaching enlightenment?
      Exactly. The mistake is to think that you can transform your present awareness into enlightened awareness. It already is enlightened awareness. It is just the ego is identifying with it. The sense of self is claiming this awareness, but the sense of self has no awareness of its own. It is unaware. The sense of self is a thought sensation. A thought or a sensation cannot be aware. This awareness right now, without trance induced by thoughts hypnotizing us to believe that they are aware, is enlightened awareness. If we recognize that then we are lucid or enlightened.
      If enlightenment is a goal, and you're using meditation (which is to be goal-less, to just SEE what is SHOWING TO YOU without EXPECTATIONS and NOT engaging in that experience for too long)...don't you see the major contradiction there?
      Like I said, enlightenment cannot be a goal. What is enlightenment? Such a fancy word. What does it mean? I like to use the world "Liberation". Liberation from the self, not liberation of the self.

      That's why I'm saying meditation is similar to hypnosis in general, since it has a goal to just aim to be aware of as many things as possible, but not fixate on just one thing.
      Well, I guess that depends on the meditation method and the hypnosis method you are talking about. This is a very general comparison.

      Third Eye Meditation => goal-oriented in reaching a state pertaining to aspects of third-eye fundamentals

      Merkaba Meditation => goal-oriented in reaching a state pertaining to aspects of Merkaba fundamentals

      Nirvana => same thing
      Those are visualizations, which is more like hypnosis and less like meditation, or classical meditation. I guess people can call any focused mental activity meditation if they choose. But by meditation I mean the practice which allows trance to be replaced by clarity in the here and now. I am in meditation right now, and the method is called "Choiceless awareness". Look up that method, there is a nice little article on wikipedia about it. You can see that it is not trance. It is choiceless awareness. This is my day to day meditation method that happens automatically for me since I passed through the gateless gate. It is my default awareness.

      And Nirvana! Nirvana is definitely not trance. Not meditation. not anything we can even conceive. It is pointless to even bring up Nirvana or attempt to talk about it. You might as well say that Nirvana is total absence of the mind/emotions/body/senses/world, not just the absence of perception. Nirvana could be called ultimate reality. None of these things are true descriptions of Nirvana, and nobody alive has any idea of what the true description of Nirvana is. So... let us forget about Nirvana.

      .



      It's just a label I'm using, I'm not saying it's just breaking down your subconscious, obviously it involves other aspects of your mind. I admit I'm using it too loosely, but generally if you want to aim for something, it's best to understand how the subconscious works (setting mantras in present tense for example to make them more efficient)
      There is no such thing as the subconscious. Look it up. It is a new-age term. There is just consciousness and no consciousness. Unconscious is not a kind of consciousness, it is the absence of consciousness. So there is just consciousness and the absence of consciousness. You are either alive or you are dead. You are either awake or you are asleep. There is trance states.


      So the next time I use meditation as a relaxation induction method, and I say "Relax" as a mantra, I'll just completely disregard the subconscious and other aspects of my mind that would work towards initiating that goal.
      If you are aware of a subconscious then it isn't subconscious, it is conscious. If you are not aware of a subconscious, then there is no consciousness to be "sub". There is nothing that is "sub".

      One thing I would like to clarify: Enlightenment is not a state of mind. It is not some high exalted experience. All states of minds and experiences are transitory and belong to the dream character. If you see that it is the dream character that is seeking enlightenment, but enlightenment is the death of the dream character and nothing it does can result in enlightenment. In lucid dream, is it the dream character that achieves lucidity? No. Enlightenment is not an experience or a state of mind, it is that which is present in all experiences and states of mind. It is your very nature. Trying to achieve that which you already are is a big source of confusion and suffering.
      Last edited by Dannon Oneironaut; 02-17-2013 at 07:58 PM.
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      And if there is bound to be logical contradictions when using dualistic language to talk about what is essentially non-dual. When the paradox is right in your face you know you are on to something. So debate is useless besides a pleasant or unpleasant diversion. Our conceptual mind can never wrap itself around enlightenment, although it will never cease trying to. The ego would LOVE to become enlightened. Fortunately, it cannot, because the ego is a trance state.
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      We can always come back to the very accurate and real analogy of lucid dreams to understand enlightenment. In unlucid dreams, you are in a trance, where you are deceived by the sensations appearing as reality. But attaining lucidity in a dream, being lucid, is not a trance state.

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      Have you ever thought of taking a meditation class for it? I've never liked exploring things on my own, especially for meditation where I have no idea how much progress I'm making. I've only tried it a couple of times though and it feels like I'm either falling asleep or some energy is making my eyes open.

      But I like the idea of meditation, currently I do other things to make myself feel at ease/peace if something is really irritating me very badly like reading a book or switching another thing to do.

    8. #33
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      If you are aware of a subconscious then it isn't subconscious, it is conscious. If you are not aware of a subconscious, then there is no consciousness to be "sub". There is nothing that is "sub".
      That's just dependent if you're sticking to Freudian concepts, and even though the frameworks he proposed was a good basis for expansion on other terms (in terms of psychology obviously), most of his thinking was flawed. Anyway, if there's no subconscious, I guess there's no subconscious then.

      So meditation is just observing this predicament with neutral awareness, and not trying to fix it.
      That's a type of meditation called Mindfulness (which has many forms based on a religion/culture's take on it; such as Vipassana (Glossary of Transpersonal Terms)
      (http://www.hinduwebsite.com/buddhism/glossary.asp#v)
      (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Buddhis...phy/Glossary#V)



      There's many types of Meditation: 8 Basic Kinds of Meditation (And Why You Should Meditate On Your Heart)

      And there are other sources you can look up on. Each type of meditation has a particular goal in mind.


      That is tricky. Aiming to be aimless is a goal, and as such is a fallacy. We cannot aim to be aimless, or strive to be non-striving. This is the same game and is a trance in itself. So meditation is just observing this predicament with neutral awareness, and not trying to fix it. In fact, the dream character is the one who is aiming to be aimless and striving to be non-striving. Enlightened awareness just watches the dream character try to do the impossible with infinite patience. That is meditation.
      I guess when using mindfulness meditation, this would be a fallacy. But either way, it is a goal or the principle behind it, but you don't fixate on it as much. And other methods, they do have a goal or principle in mind.



      One thing I would like to clarify: Enlightenment is not a state of mind. It is not some high exalted experience. All states of minds and experiences are transitory and belong to the dream character. If you see that it is the dream character that is seeking enlightenment, but enlightenment is the death of the dream character and nothing it does can result in enlightenment. In lucid dream, is it the dream character that achieves lucidity? No. Enlightenment is not an experience or a state of mind, it is that which is present in all experiences and states of mind. It is your very nature. Trying to achieve that which you already are is a big source of confusion and suffering.
      Enlightenment is simply having knowledge and having spiritual/subjective insight. Knowledge is earned through experience and/or education, that's not really something of confusion of suffering.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      And if there is bound to be logical contradictions when using dualistic language to talk about what is essentially non-dual. When the paradox is right in your face you know you are on to something. So debate is useless besides a pleasant or unpleasant diversion. Our conceptual mind can never wrap itself around enlightenment, although it will never cease trying to. The ego would LOVE to become enlightened. Fortunately, it cannot, because the ego is a trance state.
      Again, ego is used interchangeably and it's used loosely as well, so I guess in your interpretation of it, it would work out in the statement you have in the quote above.

      There isn't a single definition that could conform to various interpretations from it, the same with subconscious as well.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      We can always come back to the very accurate and real analogy of lucid dreams to understand enlightenment. In unlucid dreams, you are in a trance, where you are deceived by the sensations appearing as reality. But attaining lucidity in a dream, being lucid, is not a trance state.
      Yes, non-lucid is non-aware of picking out the unrealistic parts of a dream (pink elephants flying etc.)
      And Lucid is simply being aware of those abnormalities, or whatever conditions that aren't practical in waking life. (Being alert)

      But we're not talking about lucid dreaming, it's meditation being mentioned.

      Lucid dreaming may be led through meditation, but it even so, lucid dreaming is an altered state of consciousness. Completely different in consciousness within waking life. You're SHIFTING consciousness from waking to dreaming (which is what WILD if set upon). Even if you do MILD, DILD, DEILD, there is a shift in consciousness either way.

      Trance is an altered state of consciousness as well and there are many types altered states of consciousness obviously.

      Putting yourself into a trance - Oxford Hypnotherapy and Hypnosis

      It's pretty straight-forward.
      Last edited by Linkzelda; 02-17-2013 at 09:11 PM.

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      Yes, in fact we go through many states of consciousness in 24 hours. I would say that enlightenment is the ground state of awareness, the basic awareness that is present in all states. That is the awareness that is recognized whether one is lucid dreaming or enlightened. But yes that awareness is also in non-lucid dreams and in being drunk. But it isn't recognized. In order to recognize it we need to come out of trance.

      From wikipedia:
      Ego is a Latin word meaning "I", which derives from the Greek word "Εγώ (Ego)" meaning "I", often used in English to mean the "self", "identity" or other related concepts.
      That is how I use the term. We all are really dream characters, I can testify to that. So when the dream character meditates, is he going to achieve enlightenment or is it a way to 'improve' the dream character? That is the paradox. That nothing the dream character can do will lead to its enlightenment. The dream character cannot become enlightened. The dream character doesn't even have any awareness. Yet, somehow it happens when the dream character has tried everything to achieve enlightenment and gives up. Then the awareness that has been there the whole time watching patiently wakes up and becomes lucid. How funny! How miraculous! And realizing that there are no problems and never have been any, all problems, all stress, is all just a dream! It feels like one has been carrying a 70 pound backpack for many lifetimes and one just put it down and now feels as if floating. The search for happiness and avoiding suffering is that burden that gets released in an instant of clear lucid seeing. For some reason some people pick up that burden again

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      The biggest mistake somebody can make when meditating is trying to cultivate a spacious transcendental timeless awareness behind one's eyes. This is fabricated awareness. A beautiful transparent thought luminous with awareness. But enlightenment is not fabricated. There is no self behind those eyeballs anyway, just a brain. There is no more awareness inside your head than outside it. In fact, most of our awareness is in front of our face. To let go of the dream character of the self is to be one with the world as it is in front of your face, not behind it. Enlightenment is non-dual. Reality is non-dual. So there is no duality between inside and outside the head. It feels like the head is gone. So there is no place to have a spacious awareness there. The world becomes the container of spacious awareness. The inner sky merges with the outer sky and there is only one sky. I feel like just a lifeless organism, that somehow is alive, running on its own batteries. Or like a vampire, the undead. But everything is beautiful, not gloomy and gothic. Emotions get liberated. How can somebody be lonely, angry, scared, stressed, etc. when one knows that this is just a dream and everybody, including myself, is a dream character?

      I use the analogies of dreams, and you keep saying that we are not talking about dreams, we are talking about meditating while awake. But you see, it doesn't matter. It is all just sensations appearing out of awareness. Whatever state of mind one is in, whether confused, happy, high, low, it is all just sensations, whether dream or awake. So in enlightenment there are not so many different states of mind, even though they are, they are all the same and don't effect anybody, because there is nobody here. Different states of mind are just different sensations that appear to awareness, which never changes.

      As for the different kinds of meditation, we can differentiate between two kinds: Those that do not fabricate anything, and those that do. Visualization and such are fabricating techniques. You are 'creating' an experience or a sensation. Or you are 'cultivating' chi, or whatever. Most yogic meditations are this kind. Kundalini yoga is this kind as well, manipulating energy, etc... These all involve a sense of self (ego) which performs the meditation. Then there are the kinds of meditation that are 'not-doing', just sitting and observing, not trying to create anything.
      Out of this kind, there are two basic kinds: concentration and insight meditation. They go hand in hand. Every culture has these, but in different forms. In Buddhism the insight meditation is called "vipassana".
      Although your true nature, which is enlightenment, is not fabricated (or else it wouldn't be your nature), that does not mean fabrication techniques are without value. They add a richness to enlightenment, and these techniques are best used after enlightenment has been achieved. Just like in dreaming. It is silly to try to practice dream control techniques when one isn't even lucid. What a foolish idea! So, all these fabrication techniques are foolish to try before enlightenment is achieved.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      The biggest mistake somebody can make when meditating is trying to cultivate a spacious transcendental timeless awareness behind one's eyes. This is fabricated awareness. A beautiful transparent thought luminous with awareness. But enlightenment is not fabricated. There is no self behind those eyeballs anyway, just a brain. There is no more awareness inside your head than outside it. In fact, most of our awareness is in front of our face. To let go of the dream character of the self is to be one with the world as it is in front of your face, not behind it. Enlightenment is non-dual. Reality is non-dual. So there is no duality between inside and outside the head. It feels like the head is gone. So there is no place to have a spacious awareness there. The world becomes the container of spacious awareness. The inner sky merges with the outer sky and there is only one sky. I feel like just a lifeless organism, that somehow is alive, running on its own batteries. Or like a vampire, the undead. But everything is beautiful, not gloomy and gothic. Emotions get liberated. How can somebody be lonely, angry, scared, stressed, etc. when one knows that this is just a dream and everybody, including myself, is a dream character?

      I use the analogies of dreams, and you keep saying that we are not talking about dreams, we are talking about meditating while awake. But you see, it doesn't matter. It is all just sensations appearing out of awareness. Whatever state of mind one is in, whether confused, happy, high, low, it is all just sensations, whether dream or awake. So in enlightenment there are not so many different states of mind, even though they are, they are all the same and don't effect anybody, because there is nobody here. Different states of mind are just different sensations that appear to awareness, which never changes.

      As for the different kinds of meditation, we can differentiate between two kinds: Those that do not fabricate anything, and those that do. Visualization and such are fabricating techniques. You are 'creating' an experience or a sensation. Or you are 'cultivating' chi, or whatever. Most yogic meditations are this kind. Kundalini yoga is this kind as well, manipulating energy, etc... These all involve a sense of self (ego) which performs the meditation. Then there are the kinds of meditation that are 'not-doing', just sitting and observing, not trying to create anything.
      Out of this kind, there are two basic kinds: concentration and insight meditation. They go hand in hand. Every culture has these, but in different forms. In Buddhism the insight meditation is called "vipassana".
      Although your true nature, which is enlightenment, is not fabricated (or else it wouldn't be your nature), that does not mean fabrication techniques are without value. They add a richness to enlightenment, and these techniques are best used after enlightenment has been achieved. Just like in dreaming. It is silly to try to practice dream control techniques when one isn't even lucid. What a foolish idea! So, all these fabrication techniques are foolish to try before enlightenment is achieved.
      So if you are enlightened, and because you aware that all things in your awareness from emotions to physical senses are all just sensations, would you get mad if I told you, you were wrong? What if I pushed you around and tortured you. Would you not react in some way? Would you be afraid of feeling terrible pain or leaving behind someone who needs your help? Are you indifferent as to whether you feel joy, or live a life of bland imprisonment and are robbed of all things natural to human nature? Although you can say all things are a dream what significance does that have? Taking things less seriously? Does it make you a clown? Does it make you a rock incapable of feeling emotion and in different to whether you tumble or sit in one place for millions of years?

      Also I think that the two meditations you described can be one of the same. When I sit and meditate I normally just allow all my thoughts and feelings to flow. And breath. I think that it allows the energy that is blocked up in my body to flow and I become aware of it. I feel the tension ease. I normally don't try to achieve anything. I think it's the same way your body can heal on it's own. You just allow it to heal. Not to say I'm right or your wrong I don't know.
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    12. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post

      We all are really dream characters, I can testify to that.
      You can testify it as anecdotal evidence here, Beyond Dreaming, or any other forum or site that promotes open-minded things like this; even to anyone else in your reality, or in your case, dream characters (that are all part of your mind in a dream, since after all, they can't be dream characters if they aren't a part of your mind in a dream)....but I doubt you can testify it reasonably to the dream characters Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Neil de Grasse Tyson, or any scientist.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      Yes, in fact we go through many states of consciousness in 24 hours. I would say that enlightenment is the ground state of awareness, the basic awareness that is present in all states. That is the awareness that is recognized whether one is lucid dreaming or enlightened. But yes that awareness is also in non-lucid dreams and in being drunk. But it isn't recognized. In order to recognize it we need to come out of trance.
      Now you're mixing in trance again and implying we can't be aware of ourselves in it whatsoever. People can easily learn how to be aware in all trance states.

      If you have evidence to testify against that as you do with your dream character analogy being as “reasonable” anecdotal evidence as anyone else testifying to Zeus, Flying Spaghetti monster, the Talking Teapot, Venus, etc....feel free to do so.


      From wikipedia:

      That is how I use the term. We all are really dream characters, I can testify to that. So when the dream character meditates, is he going to achieve enlightenment or is it a way to 'improve' the dream character? That is the paradox. That nothing the dream character can do will lead to its enlightenment. The dream character cannot become enlightened. The dream character doesn't even have any awareness. Yet, somehow it happens when the dream character has tried everything to achieve enlightenment and gives up. Then the awareness that has been there the whole time watching patiently wakes up and becomes lucid. How funny! How miraculous! And realizing that there are no problems and never have been any, all problems, all stress, is all just a dream! It feels like one has been carrying a 70 pound backpack for many lifetimes and one just put it down and now feels as if floating. The search for happiness and avoiding suffering is that burden that gets released in an instant of clear lucid seeing. For some reason some people pick up that burden again
      I think you're completely disregarding our ability to improve ourselves through simple reasoning and analysis. As for happiness and avoiding suffering, people tend to see their friends and closed ones as fragments of who they are as a whole; be it personality, character, etc. (now don't assume I'm trying to be dualistic again literally).

      Some people are not aware of certain lessons in life because they're too clouded with other situations they have to handle. Would you say growing up in a country where there's nothing but warfare, horrible distributions of the necessities of life, and higher difficulty in getting an education and making something for yourself is something where people can go, (Sarcasm noted by Italicized font)

      "Oh, I have the ability to conquer all of this suffering with ease! I can conquer my difficulty to provide food for my family, to not become the next person to blow up from a suicide bomber or a gunshot. Because deep down inside, I know this is all a dream."

      Applying positive thinking into reality being just a dream, it only applies to people who can get survive with ease, and it's even more convenient for the elite group of people who have it without actually putting a good amount of effort.

      Suddenly understanding pain, which is a burden, doesn't need to be picked up on because it just leads to suffering, and there should be no understanding of how it feels to actually appreciate happiness because of the emotional reaction pain gives us. Suddenly seeing our loved ones die, which is a heavier pain that's a burden, suddenly is not of merit or value because HEY, we have enlightenment (it's all within us from the beginning in all states right?), so we don't need to worry about such petty things!

      We don't need to worry about paying the bills, it's just a process we just put in there for the lulz. We don't need to worry about getting an education, it's just going to lead to nothing but living a bitter life. We don't need to build a resume, because after all, enlightenment that's within us in the beginning is more than enough of an enticing aspect that'll conquer everyone who has more experience than I do!

      YES. I can see it now! On my resume, "AUTO ENLIGHTENED MODE 24/7, TAKE ME OR I'M OUT OF HERE...SPAMMING NIRVANA ALL DAY , I DON'T EVEN NEED THIS JOB!"


      This dream like fantasy may work for your perception, but I doubt it'll work to some other person who's barely capable of having enough provisions to provide to his family. This ability of enlightenment that's the basis of all awareness definitely should have helped that person get by.

      They have the knowledge to get by, and the insight to get by as well, they're just playing hard mode and not being aware of it!

      But in reality, that's not the case. They do not have the knowledge simply because they either feel compelled there's no hope, that there's no need to introspection to get out of their difficult situation. And even if they did find ways, what in the world could they possibly do in the first place? I doubt they can get their dream money and help them out.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      The biggest mistake somebody can make when meditating is trying to cultivate a spacious transcendental timeless awareness behind one's eyes. This is fabricated awareness.
      (Sarcasm noted in Italicized font again)

      Fabricated awareness? Oh, I thought that all awareness was accessible with ease since enlightenment was the basis of all awareness that's real and true? If this cultivation is a pretentious awareness, could that also mean that there's a higher chance that meditation itself is completely a fabricated awareness altogether? Since we do have enlightened as that basis, the whole sitting down, letting your thoughts gather, we don't need to do that!

      How could I, a dream character, learn anything through meditation!


      A beautiful transparent thought luminous with awareness. But enlightenment is not fabricated. There is no self behind those eyeballs anyway, just a brain.
      Well physically, it's obvious it's just a bunch of optical nerve endings, veins, and an organ that makes up a small percentage of our body but uses more than 20% of the oxygen and energy coming in.


      There is no more awareness inside your head than outside it. In fact, most of our awareness is in front of our face. To let go of the dream character of the self is to be one with the world as it is in front of your face, not behind it. Enlightenment is non-dual. Reality is non-dual. So there is no duality between inside and outside the head. It feels like the head is gone. So there is no place to have a spacious awareness there. The world becomes the container of spacious awareness.
      So you're telling me in a lucid dream (inside of our heads), we cannot have more awareness than what occurs outside our heads? So you're telling me when you fixate on the details in the dream (applying awareness), when you fixate on the flower in the dream, it doesn't become more vivid than any other flower in waking life?

      That it's just based solely on how we would see a flower in waking life (or the pseudo-dream world in waking life)? Suddenly other aspects of our mind that have now put less focus on external stimuli in waking life in order to augment clarity and vividness clearly has is no more awareness than what we have outside?

      So when I a person screams “Clarity NOW!” in their lucid dreams, them seeing their dream environment go from zero to 1080p HD in a matter of a few split seconds isn't more than the awareness we have in waking life?

      Suddenly we can multi-task without the brain having to compensate only on one or two task at most without causing a malfunction? We're completely devoid of the limits of the brain? Because after, we have enlightenment, we have knowledge and insight to make all those prevalent limits hocus pocus!

      And how are you so sure the world is the only container of spacious awareness, what if there's a universe within our minds, what if there's a universe within that dream character you see? Are you aware of that universe? Are you aware of the multiverse as well?

      I doubt it. Because the logic with the enlightenment being this basis of all awareness clearly applies to that, and that's nothing more than delusions.


      The inner sky merges with the outer sky and there is only one sky. I feel like just a lifeless organism, that somehow is alive, running on its own batteries. Or like a vampire, the undead. But everything is beautiful, not gloomy and gothic. Emotions get liberated. How can somebody be lonely, angry, scared, stressed, etc. when one knows that this is just a dream and everybody, including myself, is a dream character?
      I know right? How can someone exhibit these negative traits when they can just know it's a dream, and say, “Pfffft I got this!!”

      Those damned people and their anxiety! If only they knew!


      I use the analogies of dreams, and you keep saying that we are not talking about dreams, we are talking about meditating while awake. But you see, it doesn't matter. It is all just sensations appearing out of awareness. Whatever state of mind one is in, whether confused, happy, high, low, it is all just sensations, whether dream or awake. So in enlightenment there are not so many different states of mind, even though they are, they are all the same and don't effect anybody, because there is nobody here. Different states of mind are just different sensations that appear to awareness, which never changes.
      Yep, we have that enlightenment within us, we don't need to use reasoning and rationalization, it's just a pain from the ego! Why search when we have it already!?!?!

      Dang it, I knew I shouldn't have been empathetic towards others and trying to understanding myself! It was in me all along!


      Out of this kind, there are two basic kinds: concentration and insight meditation. They go hand in hand. Every culture has these, but in different forms. In Buddhism the insight meditation is called "vipassana".
      Concentration and insight go hand in hand because they are essentially the same.

      Insight involves some kind of deep introspection or deep contemplative thought that requires a degree of deep concentration. Insight is fixating on a deeper aspect and concept, which goes back to concentration.

      And remember, from the logic you stated, they're non-dual right? There's no duality at all!

      Although your true nature, which is enlightenment, is not fabricated (or else it wouldn't be your nature), that does not mean fabrication techniques are without value. They add a richness to enlightenment, and these techniques are best used after enlightenment has been achieved. Just like in dreaming. It is silly to try to practice dream control techniques when one isn't even lucid. What a foolish idea! So, all these fabrication techniques are foolish to try before enlightenment is achieved.
      Again, with this mentioning on fabrication techniques and their value, I don't think I was arguing to that. But if you stating it just for the sake of stating it, okay.
      Last edited by Linkzelda; 02-18-2013 at 07:51 AM.

    13. #38
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      Dannon - I have a couple of questions. Will concentration meditation help me become lucid? Maybe improve memory? Also, what does it mean when I'm trying to focus on something in meditation and my eyes start flicking all over the place like I'm in REM?
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 02-18-2013 at 08:30 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by saltyseedog View Post
      So if you are enlightened, and because you aware that all things in your awareness from emotions to physical senses are all just sensations, would you get mad if I told you, you were wrong? What if I pushed you around and tortured you. Would you not react in some way? Would you be afraid of feeling terrible pain or leaving behind someone who needs your help? Are you indifferent as to whether you feel joy, or live a life of bland imprisonment and are robbed of all things natural to human nature? Although you can say all things are a dream what significance does that have? Taking things less seriously? Does it make you a clown? Does it make you a rock incapable of feeling emotion and in different to whether you tumble or sit in one place for millions of years?

      Also I think that the two meditations you described can be one of the same. When I sit and meditate I normally just allow all my thoughts and feelings to flow. And breath. I think that it allows the energy that is blocked up in my body to flow and I become aware of it. I feel the tension ease. I normally don't try to achieve anything. I think it's the same way your body can heal on it's own. You just allow it to heal. Not to say I'm right or your wrong I don't know.
      The whole Nihilism thing! lol. I am not a nihilist, if that is what you are asking. No, in fact poisonous emotions like envy, anger, greed, etc. transform into the radiant wisdoms. Sensations become vivid like in a lucid dream because they are not grasped on to by a mind. There is wonder, bliss, it satisfies each moment, rest, coming home, non-dual unconditional love, nothing is taken personally. You see that all the suffering in the world is all people's own doing. It is an opening of the heart.

      Emotions are felt in a pure way. They are not grasped at or avoided. They are liberated into bliss. There is a need to share the bliss. It is creative and inspirational. It is overflowing, like a lucid dream. You see all visuals are made of rainbow light. So not only is everything completely empty of any inherent existence, like a dream, it continuously appears full of infinite mind. The bright mind. Everything is illuminated.

      But everything is not always hunky dory. There are times when I seem to have 'lost' it, but I know better, but I am no longer realizing that it is here. Then there is trying to catch balance. And I still have to make a living. I still have to pay bills. I still have to function in society as if I am a real person. There are times of nihilism, and meaningless, and times of forgetting the fullness. It is a process, and I am not at the end, only the beginning. It is like shaky lucidity in the beginning...then it gets more stable....There are times of loneliness because everyone is asleep and there is nobody to talk to. There are times of learning weird lessons about freewill or the lack thereof. I got caught in a strange loop during the holidays where I didn't get out of bed. There was no reason to. For about ten days I only left the bed to eat or use the bathroom. I was trying to figure out what is the cause for motivation. If there is no self, who decides to get out of bed? So I realized that the desire to get out of bed is just a thought in a train of thoughts that are all dependent on causes, and if I were to break myself from that train of thought and abide in instant presence, the present moment is already happening and there is nothing I can do to change it. So I just layed in bed for ten days waiting for a cause to get me out of bed, which was to use the bathroom of eat. So it isn't always hunky dory on the path. I haven't had a job in a year because it is meaningless. I don't know how I have money to live, but somehow it comes.
      Last edited by Dannon Oneironaut; 02-18-2013 at 10:37 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post
      Dannon - I have a couple of questions. Will concentration meditation help me become lucid? Maybe improve memory? Also, what does it mean when I'm trying to focus on something in meditation and my eyes start flicking all over the place like I'm in REM?
      Yes concentration is great, but it must be easy and effortless. Like resting your weary mind and heart in the concentration. It is called "calm abiding". At first it will take some effort and vigilance, but try to relax and focus. At some point you will enter a phase where concentration becomes smooth, stable, clear, and easy. This is called access concentration. Once you have access concentration, the world is yours. YOu can travel up and down the various concentration absorbtions and formless worlds, or relax focus and turn attention to every sensation and just notice and relax and center into subtler subtler layers. This is insight meditation, and leads all the way to enlightenment.

      Access concentration is the first dhyana (absorbtion). I believe there are 7 worldly dhyanas and 4 formless dhyanas. But knowledge of lucid dreaming is in there.

      I don't know anything about eyes flicking. That sounds fun. There is a jnana (stage of insight) in insight meditation where there are all kinds of bodily symptoms and twitches and obsessing with posture and feeling tight neck, etc. and you have to pass through that to get to access concentration.

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      Linkzelda, I am not trying to convince anybody. If you do not accept it, that is fine. I am definitely not trying to convince Richard Dawkins. I believe in letting people believe in the illusion of freewill. And it is not my mind. It is not your mind. It is one mind. There is only one mind here and it is the one that is reading this sentence right now. This mind is always enlightened. It is beyond conception, analysis, understanding. But it is undeniable. This self-recognition is not possible in trance, as it is 'natural' mind, unconditioned mind, etc. When I am saying being aware of true natural mind, I am talking about primordial awareness prior to sensation. It is the ego which claims this awareness. Thoughts are not aware, and the ego is a thought. Trances are clouds covering the naked sky of natural mind. I am not saying that our physical bodies don't exist. I am saying that this whole experience including our physical bodies is a dream. Not my dream. Each one of us is dreaming, but there is only one of us. Haha!!! It cannot be understood by its very nature, but there it is! When you are looking at somebody in the eyes, you can see if they are hypnotized by their thoughts. When you are seeing your thoughts or listening to your thoughts, your eyes gloss over, everything becomes duller. You are not seeing reality as it is manifesting in the present moment. It is like the thoughts hover in front of your eyes. You are "daydreaming". You can see it in others as well. You can direct that trance if you impose your will over them.

      Either you are aware of reality as it is happening in this moment or you are in a thought trance. We need to set up reality checks: Am I awake? lol. Reality is that which continues to exist after you stop believing in it.
      Last edited by Dannon Oneironaut; 02-18-2013 at 10:43 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      I don't know anything about eyes flicking. That sounds fun. There is a jnana (stage of insight) in insight meditation where there are all kinds of bodily symptoms and twitches and obsessing with posture and feeling tight neck, etc. and you have to pass through that to get to access concentration.
      That sounds like where I'm at then. Lol it actually IS kinda fun, but not really what I'm aiming for. Ok, Ill just go with it when it happens and enjoy the ride. Interesting you mention tight neck etc - just earlier tonight I looked up some yoga to relieve tension in the neck and shoulders, which feels amazing! I'm going to learn more yoga.

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      ^ Actually thinking more about it, I passed through the twitching restless stage a long time ago (though I quit meditating for like a year and am just picking it back up). I'm able to sit motionless for a good long time and don't have any other problems with it physically or mentally other than sometimes a lot of internal chatter and like I said my eyes darting left and right as I try to look at something. The stiff neck/back thing doesn't bother me in meditation, I just became aware of it because of some deep breathing exercises I've been doing that have really opened up my chest and now I can't help but notice how tight my neck and shoulders and upper back are.

      I wonder if darting eyes mean I'm going too deep into relaxation and getting near sleep?

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      Possibly. I would recommend just observing the sensations of twitching eyes with choiceless awareness and not reading into them too much.

      Choiceless awareness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      Just notice it as a transient sensation that appears. Who is it appearing to?
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      The whole Nihilism thing! lol. I am not a nihilist, if that is what you are asking. No, in fact poisonous emotions like envy, anger, greed, etc. transform into the radiant wisdoms. Sensations become vivid like in a lucid dream because they are not grasped on to by a mind. There is wonder, bliss, it satisfies each moment, rest, coming home, non-dual unconditional love, nothing is taken personally. You see that all the suffering in the world is all people's own doing. It is an opening of the heart.

      Emotions are felt in a pure way. They are not grasped at or avoided. They are liberated into bliss. There is a need to share the bliss. It is creative and inspirational. It is overflowing, like a lucid dream. You see all visuals are made of rainbow light. So not only is everything completely empty of any inherent existence, like a dream, it continuously appears full of infinite mind. The bright mind. Everything is illuminated.

      But everything is not always hunky dory. There are times when I seem to have 'lost' it, but I know better, but I am no longer realizing that it is here. Then there is trying to catch balance. And I still have to make a living. I still have to pay bills. I still have to function in society as if I am a real person. There are times of nihilism, and meaningless, and times of forgetting the fullness. It is a process, and I am not at the end, only the beginning. It is like shaky lucidity in the beginning...then it gets more stable....There are times of loneliness because everyone is asleep and there is nobody to talk to. There are times of learning weird lessons about freewill or the lack thereof. I got caught in a strange loop during the holidays where I didn't get out of bed. There was no reason to. For about ten days I only left the bed to eat or use the bathroom. I was trying to figure out what is the cause for motivation. If there is no self, who decides to get out of bed? So I realized that the desire to get out of bed is just a thought in a train of thoughts that are all dependent on causes, and if I were to break myself from that train of thought and abide in instant presence, the present moment is already happening and there is nothing I can do to change it. So I just layed in bed for ten days waiting for a cause to get me out of bed, which was to use the bathroom of eat. So it isn't always hunky dory on the path. I haven't had a job in a year because it is meaningless. I don't know how I have money to live, but somehow it comes.
      That's kind of sad and happy, and like hopeless and hopeful or something. I'm sort of trying to get a job. But I don't really want one. I don't seem to fit in anywhere. But yet same as you things tend to manifest in my life to help me along despite it all. I think an idea and the next day the idea presents it self in my life. I struggle and hurt, but always learn more. Also unrelated to the topic I've been considering becoming a traveling vagabond. And I know you've been that way much of your life. Could you give me some kind of advice? I mean maybe in pm. Kind of a vague question but I kind of look up too you in a way.
      Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake

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      Yes it is sad and happy. But it is way happier. To be free! To see reality! To be liberated from the self! To know this is all a dream! And I am not the lonely dreamer! We are all one dreamer!
      Sometimes I think about how to teach this. Words have always been used, but sometimes a look, a gesture, holding up a flower, or a mirror, or a crystal has worked

      It is like becoming a vampire. First you have to die, you see your dream character fall away. Everything you have known falls away. Then you awaken to your new senses and everything is new and splendid! But it takes a little while to learn to use them skillfully. Then you are undead. Not living, not dead, but both.

      And the funny thing is that nothing has changed, you see it has been this way forever! Hahaha!
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