does meditating become fun???

i like the idea of meditation and want to enjoy and practice it. but i never end up doing it because i get bored and while im doing it i just feel normal. i feel like i am doing it wrong.
i know that people say there is no wrong or right way and not to wory about that but i realy dont feel anything. and i still have just as many thoughts.

after practicing meditation for a while does it become easier and more enjoyable?
even to the point were you look forward to doing it instead of just wanting it to be over.

i have spoken to a few of my friends and they feel the same way.

i have tried different types of meditation but i mostly focus on my breathing.
and i think the sound of the breathing. just like they say to think a number for each breath and drag it out, but instead i think in my head the sound it makes when i take a breath.

That thing in your head, that irritation that you get telling you you're bored, that panic, that's what you need to focus on. Absolving that panic is the purpose of meditation.

Meditation doesn't become fun. It becomes a peaceful moment in which you successfully clear all your thoughts and negativity. It becomes an enjoyment of awareness not interrupted with streams of thought.

Anyway, meditation is a lot of work in the beginning. Surely you'll accomplish nothing what you expect in the first 10 times, but the truth is, that is the most important phase in achieving inner peace while meditating.

Sit down, relax, and simply observe your thoughts without interfering. Observe your most negative thoughts with high awareness and just let them flow. I recommend Echart Tolle's book - Power of Now. Nothing religious or supernatural involved.

Moved to Inner Sanctum, but I'll keep the redirect here so more people can read this :)

Meditation isn't a "fun" thing, it just is. Don't worry about doing it "right" or "wrong", there is no right or wrong when it comes to meditation. Just do what feels right for you and just flow.

OP made me lol.

I started with walking meditation because I found sitting meditation to be too difficult, initially. Even now, for me to do a sitting meditation for longer than 15 minutes requires me to be in a group.

I decided I didn't want to turn you off of meditation or make you think of it as work (it is, after all, the one time of day where we do not work) so I found some techniques that might me more interesting:

Fun Meditation Techniques for Finding Inner Peace | Lifescript.com

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Bubbles Meditation
This is a wonderful meditation technique and visualization exercise that is quick, easy and fun to do:
Find a comfortable, quiet place.
Sit either on a chair with your feet flat on the floor and palms resting upward, on top of your thighs.
Close your eyes and concentrate on your breathing.
Take five deep breaths, feeling yourself centering in calmness.
In your mind’s eye, visualize yourself blowing golden bubbles of light, each time you exhale.
These are bubbles of joy and each time you reach out an pop one, giggle.
Pop as many as you can, imagining glowing streams of joy flowing through your finger and into your heart chakra and bringing you inner peace.
As you feel your heart chakra opening, you may find yourself laughing uncontrollably, and that’s wonderful.
When you are ready, slowly come back into the room and open your eyes

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Gratitude
The realization of joy in our lives often comes from discovering and practicing daily gratitude. When you get up in the morning, take about ten minutes to write down everything you are grateful for in that moment. When you have completed your list, read it over by starting it with the phrase “I am truly grateful for…” and go down the list. Do the same thing and meditate on your list for 10 minutes before you go to bed. You’ll be amazed at how wonderful your life will become, and how your hardships will lessen.

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I personally like that one, but you don't even really need to do a list, in my opinion. Every moment I can, I try to use gratitude like a muscle to enrich my experiences.

I also found this website, which I think is helpful

8 Ways to Make Meditation Easy and Fun | Tiny Buddha: Wisdom Quotes, Letting Go, Letting Happiness In

One technique highlighted is one that helped me a lot:

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3. Use the Alarm Clock Meditation.

If 100 breaths isn’t going to cut it for you, set a timer for 5 minutes. Then meditate until the timer goes off. This way, you don’t have to wonder about how long it’s been, or how much longer you should meditate for. It’s like meditation on cruise-drive.

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What about it makes you want it to be over? Try not to go into it with the assumption that lack of activity=boring. Notice the subtle difference between each breath.

You could also try doing shikantaza instead. Maybe this is bad advice, if anyone feels it is let me know. In zen practice you start with the breath then you do shikantaza, which is choice-less awareness. Just be very aware everything going on around you, every sound every smell. Fell your ass on the cushion, you clothes your hair, the pain in your back, the food stuck in your teeth. Be aware of it all and harbor no anger towards any of it, let it be what it is. If you are in real pain maybe do something to change that, but try not to shift around. This might actually be much harder than breath work, but I got kinda bored with the breath counting when I was doing that too, though I also broke through that.

If you want a more secular version of the same thing check out http://www.dreamviews.com/f49/all-da...gyoshi-113253/. It's great.

Thanx for the replies.
And I guess by fun I meant enjoyable and not a hassle. A good thing not a bad thing.

Try to find enjoyment in simply being alive, most people don't have that luxury.

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

I started with walking meditation because I found sitting meditation to be too difficult, initially. Even now, for me to do a sitting meditation for longer than 15 minutes requires me to be in a group.

I decided I didn't want to turn you off of meditation or make you think of it as work (it is, after all, the one time of day where we do not work) so I found some techniques that might me more interesting:

Fun Meditation Techniques for Finding Inner Peace | Lifescript.com





I personally like that one, but you don't even really need to do a list, in my opinion. Every moment I can, I try to use gratitude like a muscle to enrich my experiences.

I also found this website, which I think is helpful

8 Ways to Make Meditation Easy and Fun | Tiny Buddha: Wisdom Quotes, Letting Go, Letting Happiness In

One technique highlighted is one that helped me a lot:

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thank you,
these seem great i will give them a try.

if you like these types of things then i would recomend trying something i learned a while ago, but i felt it was more self hypnosis than meditation.

relax your body fully,
relax and calm your mind by focusing on your breathing,
visualize 10 steps going down to beutiful water,
relax even more with each step, slowly walk down each step feeling each step as ou go, and counting the numbers starting at 10.
(you have probably heard of this up to here but this next part is the fun part that you probably dont know),
once you get to the bottom continue walking into the warm, relaxing, numbing water, feel it go higher up your bod with each step.
keep walking till you are fully under water.

when i did this my body was numb, warm, relaxed nd buzzing and i could hear a buzzing in my ears.

If you are bored you need to meditate on boredom. "I am bored" is a thought. It sounds like you need to develop concentration before you try meditating. They are similar, concentration natural becomes meditation. Try a concentrating on a candle flame. You can actually see when your mind wanders. You lose alertness and it is like a cloud covering the sun, or a shadow covering the object of concentration. The shadow is a thought or feeling. Try to hold your attention on the candle flame. Everything else will disappear if you are doing it right. The candle flame may even darken or disappear. Keep being alert. Your concentration will reach new levels rapidly, it is like a muscle that needs to be exercised. before you know it you will feel alert, refreshed and clarity of mind.

Some points to keep in mind regarding meditation and all mental practices: Firstly, there is no point to meditation. You are not waiting for something to happen. Just like there is no point to playing a song on the guitar. If the point was to get to the end of the song quickly, then the fastest players would be the best. One meditates like one listens to one's favorite music: enjoying, not in a hurry, not expecting anything to happen, but enjoying the moment of it. Listening, attentive, enjoying your own presence.

At first meditation is not very phenomenal. But as you refine your attention, it does become a lot of fun. Just like lucid dreaming is a lot of fun. Meditation is the process of refining your attention and calm abiding in the atomic present moment. There are many methods. Not all of them are right for every person. The candle flame method is very popular and universal. There is the breath method. Try to enjoy the breathing. Think of it like drinking, or absorbing bliss. The breath comes in like waves crashing on the shore, turn and go back out. Is laying in the sun fun or boring? Is watching the sunset fun or boring? These types of things are what meditation is like. WHen attentively watching a beautiful sunset, one is naturally in a state of meditation. The ego is not there, just attention on the present moment of beauty. Try hitting a gong and listen as the sound slowly fades. pay attention to the quiet reverberation, and just stay with it and you will find it leaves you in alert silence. When feeling a texture like fabric become the sensation of feeling. Etc. etc.

Boredom is your ego trying to distract you. It is your weak concentration. Boredom is a subtle fear. It is a distraction. It is distracting you from yourself. If you are bored when you meditate that means you think that yourself is boring. Meditating is spending time with yourself with no distractions. But most likely you are not using every available method to help you.

Often we are bored because we cannot control our thoughts and there is a lot of tension in our minds and bodies. That is why yoga or any other exercise is good. Go jog a few miles then catch your breath and meditate. It will be a lot easier. Because the energy is flowing strongly through out your body and not in your mind. It will be so easy to meditate then. When doing any aerobic activity with totality, you are in meditation. Dancing, running, etc... When you are running you are not thinking about anything, but just being in the present moment. You are not thinking "I am meditating, I am a Christian, I am a Buddhist, I am an atheist, I am this, I am that..." No you are BEING, nothing more or less. You are being dancing, you are being running.

Many uncontrollable thoughts means your energy is not flowing through you. You need to iron out your energy. That is why exercise, breathing, yoga, chi Gong, etc. are all done right before meditation.

Make it fun to explore consciousness. You are an explorer, exploring the last frontier: consciousness. Make it an exciting game. Think of what you will be able to experience as you get better at it. Lucid dreaming, etc...

To summarize: If you are bored then you are not meditating. So you cannot say that meditation is boring. If you say that a sunset is boring that means you are not really seeing the sunset. You may be looking at the sunset, but you are not seeing it. Rather, you are seeing your own monkey mind being uncomfortable and rebelling against being disciplined. Have a deeper insight and see that beyond this uncomfortable restless monkey mind is meditation.

Just look within yourself and take it all passively. Accept what you are feeling and thinking allowing it to flow, but don't let it control you and don't resist it. Just let it flow with every breath you take. What goes on inside can be overwelming and it can cause you to be restless.

Yes is the answer to your question. Firstly you need to understand that meditation is a discipline and expect it to be hard work in the begining. I, like you, meditated for twenty minutes per day in the evening. My thoughts were scattered and I got frustrated with myself but I persevered. After a few weeks I didn't notice any difference in my meditation and my life certainly didn't feel more peaceful as I had expected. I kept meditating and gaining experience of being aware of my thought processes and not trying to engage with them and trying to remain mentally clear. I found this all rather frustrating but I wasn't going to give in. Then one evening BAMMM!!!! I had been meditating for about two minutes and I suddenly entered this state of mind where my internal dialogue - mental chatter - completely ceased. I was in a state of complete utter peace. Oh man it was so beautiful. I could have stayed like that for hours and hours. It was like the ultimate drug. I savoured every second but the most phenomenal thing was that I had no thought processes running - I was just pure awareness. I had no sense of time. I heard a voice say, 'That is enough for now.' I looked at my clock and 15 minutes had passed.

This experience made me realise that if we think that we aren't making progress after weeks or months of meditating we actually are; we just aren't consciously aware of it.

Just wait until your third eye opens. Then the fun begins... Well I think so anyway.

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Originally Posted by mcwillis

Yes is the answer to your question. Firstly you need to understand that meditation is a discipline and expect it to be hard work in the begining. I, like you, meditated for twenty minutes per day in the evening. My thoughts were scattered and I got frustrated with myself but I persevered. After a few weeks I didn't notice any difference in my meditation and my life certainly didn't feel more peaceful as I had expected. I kept meditating and gaining experience of being aware of my thought processes and not trying to engage with them and trying to remain mentally clear. I found this all rather frustrating but I wasn't going to give in. Then one evening BAMMM!!!! I had been meditating for about two minutes and I suddenly entered this state of mind where my internal dialogue - mental chatter - completely ceased. I was in a state of complete utter peace. Oh man it was so beautiful. I could have stayed like that for hours and hours. It was like the ultimate drug. I savoured every second but the most phenomenal thing was that I had no thought processes running - I was just pure awareness. I had no sense of time. I heard a voice say, 'That is enough for now.' I looked at my clock and 15 minutes had passed.

This experience made me realise that if we think that we aren't making progress after weeks or months of meditating we actually are; we just aren't consciously aware of it.

Just wait until your third eye opens. Then the fun begins... Well I think so anyway.

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What you described is how I feel about 90% of the time. My mind is normally so blank and I just feel everything. And when in flow a voice in my head will guide me telling me what to do. Telling which direction to go. One of my first legit meditation experiences was like what you described, so much peace. I was often so angry and frustrated all the time. And I just felt so much peace.

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

To summarize: If you are bored then you are not meditating.

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Nail on the head.

Anyway, like others have said, "fun" is not really the right description, but the meditative experience does become pleasant in an odd sort of way. It's a little hard to explain, since it's not the same kind of pleasantness that I would liken to, say, savoring a nice mouthful of ice cream. Maybe the best I can do is to say that the peacefulness of just being is kind of satisfying.

It isn't the same thing as fun or pleasure, it is infinitely more satisfying.

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

It isn't the same thing as fun or pleasure, it is infinitely more satisfying.

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this was a long time ago. but i didnt explain myself properly, i didnt mean fun, i meant enjoyable, and not a hassle.
and over the time till now i have discovered the answer and that is yes. now i enjoy meditating and look foward to it. especialy after feeling stressed out or having to do something that i realy dont want to for the day.

That is what I wanted to hear! Glad you are making progress!

You can use meditation to unlock your own past life memories, only if you discover consciously that you are connected or through dreams, after you can start practicing meditation. You don't need a hypno-therapist, they are expensive for one session only, i even found out myself and didn't agree to pay 300 and left, and this was a long time ago.
You will start getting unusal memories or images and feelings, this will happen when you get the hang of it. During meditation, if you feel some sad or depressing feelings you can stop short and get off the meditating state if you can't handle it, if you can then keep going until your feelings fade away. Sometimes you really need to face fears and feelings so that memories will stop if you keep having them without meditation.

I see mediation as a nice escapism from external processes from this reality, and to realize that it's a matter of stages that you practice to condition yourself in. For people who add in that it helps you organize your thoughts, being passively aware, and learning how your mind goes from complex to simplistic essentially as you go deeper, that's good, and you should keep doing it.

But when people start using it to explain supernatural, things based on complete faith without rational thinking, that's when meditation seems to be less enticing to others (who don't know where to start mind you) because they feel they have to be conditioned to some other person's belief. Whether it's for Third Eye, Merkaba, Nirvana, or any methods that establish closer and a "deeper connection" towards spiritualistic endeavors, the point being is, with so many preconceptions of what it "should" lead to (third eye activation, chakras, etc.), I wouldn't find it surprising that it would be too overwhelming for people new to meditation.

The point being, in the most practical sense, meditation is simply a form of conditioning yourself to go deeper and deeper into your mind, and realizing that ultimately, you are getting in a suggestive state. So it's no wonder people feel awe inspiring when they unlocked their "third eye" or found "enlightenment" when it's really the simplicity of suggestibility getting more and more easier to grasp.

- If you were a Christian and practice meditation, you'll realize because of mediation reaching a state of suggestibility, you'll find yourself literally seeing parts of the schemata of that particular faith.

- If you were into Spiritual endeavors, like spirit guides or just basic debatable dreaming aspects like dream guides, depending on how deep your state of suggestibility is, you're going to have projections and phenomena pertaining to those convictions.

And the steps to get deeper suggestibility state of being (like using 17 breaths for Merkaba meditation), is really just conditioning yourself and solidifying your expectations that the meditation is going to pertain to Merkaba.

Same for "Astral Projection," "Dream Guides," "Enlightenment," "Akashic Records" etc. When you realize the meditation sees how you really think, this simulation or experience only makes what you want to be true to be plausible in meditation, especially if said belief can't be proven rationally with scientific process.

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So for meditation, it goes both ways for me.

1. If I want to feel less insecure about a belief that I cannot prove, I take advantage of the state of suggestibility it brings to literally make thought energy prevalent in my perspective. The subconscious (or whatever you want to phrase it), can give you expressions of what you want to believe is true, which makes it so enticing to solidify people's faith and never really question why they're so attached to it.

2. It's also a learning tool to see why I'm so inclined to believe in things, both rational and spiritual/abstract. It helps me see that instead of stating that it's "magic" or that it's "a conduit to our past lives," why not gather these predispositions, come back to this reality and embracing its awareness, and analyze my thought processes instead of stating "Oh it must be the "magic" of meditation!"

Which is why the latter makes it so enjoyable, the steps to get to that state of suggestibility that establishes meditation becomes enticing rather than a chore, because I can see what makes me tick, what makes me happy, what makes me disgusted, and so forth; it makes me question things more instead of giving up in finding ways to understand.

I see the ego less of a distraction but more of an aspect I just temporarily invest less focus on and come back to it later to rationalize. The ego isn't a panic, it isn't a distraction, it's just part of the totality of how I conceptualize reality, I just need to go around it for the time being and tap on its shoulders again when I'm done.

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It can be used to promote constant skepticism and possibly find ways to gradually prove things probable and workable in this reality (and not only in the person's eyes) simply because you when you get into a deep state of suggestibility (and meditation = hypnosis fundamentally), you have your foundations set out for you, and it's up to you to explore deeper and analyze, or stay in the defeatist mindset and state

"Oh it's too grand for me to explain, and thus because of that, I'll just label it as spiritual and making me feel all warm and fuzzy inside rather than admitting it's my unwillingness or inability to question it and learn."

But that's just my opinion.

Nice, I agree with the above post except for one little point. Maybe at first meditation may seem like conditioning the mind. But in fact, the whole purpose is to uncondition the mind. To allow the mind to relax in its natural unconditioned state.
It might help you to know about the stages of meditation. These are not beliefs, but the stages of meditation everyone who meditates successfully goes through, no matter what their tradition or beliefs.
There is a map of the stages of insight that the Buddha mapped out. Various Christian mystics have also mapped out similar maps. The Kaballa tree of life is also a similar map.

It is said that the first insight a meditator has is that their mind is like a waterfall. Thoughts and physical sensations are constantly cascading through their awareness, carrying them away. They realize for the first time how insane and out-of-control their minds actually are.

Eventually, by continuing to pay steady attention to experience, there is a shift into what is called Mind & Body. Mind and Body is very pleasant and state-like, and the key insight revealed here is that there are all sorts of subtle phenomena—that were once below the threshold of our attention—which we are now aware of. These include intentions, thoughts, and the simple knowing of experience (consciousness).

With continued investigation, the pleasantness from Mind & Body begins to fade and one begins to see a stronger relationship between all of these elements. The next stage, Cause and Effect reveals that intentions actually precede actions. There is the intention to take a step forward and then the action follows directly after it. From here things can begin to get a bit faster, but also more unpleasant. The next stage, which is the 1st major trough in the process, is called The Three Characteristics. One’s attention has become much more finely honed, to the point that with a fair amount of reliability one is able to perceive the impermanent, unsatisfactory, and relatively selfless nature of our experience. This is particular true of physical experiences, and it’s not uncommon at this stage to experience strange, and uncomfortable physical phenomena, such as a sore neck, back, or shoulders, a build up of pressure in the forehead, finding one’s posture twisting into odd positions, etc. There also tends to be a lot of heat during this phase. I’ve often felt, when going through the three characteristics, that my body was cooking from the inside-out. And to top things off there can also be a good bit of emotional difficulty including tightness, irritation, and sadness.

Oddly enough, the only way through this difficult period is to continue to practice well, and to perceive the three characteristics with greater clarity and speed. If one is doing the noting practice, then somewhere in here it becomes natural to drop the noting in favor of perceiving things with a more bare attention. At this point one is perceiving the arising and passing of experience so quickly that the mental notes can actually feel cumbersome and clunky. During this phase, called The Arising and Passing Away (or A&P for short), things begin to get much more clear and pleasant. For many people they find they can sit much longer than they normally could, and can do so with very little effort. Meditation becomes quite easy, almost effortless at times, and accompanying this are many deep insights into the nature of phenomenal reality. Brightness, clarity, and joy often accompany this phase of the process.

At some point there is a peak to this phase, and there is an important event that happens called the A&P Event (or pseudo-nirvana). It is a peak experience, which reveals something very profound in the relationship to experience, and is often described in various ways. These can include descriptions of a great dip in reality, a momentary release of identity, an explosion of consciousness, or even something resembling an out of body experience. It can also happen in a lucid dream—as it did for the me the first time I remember crossing it. In all cases it is an important landmark not because of the experience itself, because of what follows it: the dark night.

http://www.vincenthorn.com/images/Pr...ht-WaveMap.png

[The preceding map is a graphical representation that uses a sinusoidal wave to describe the progress of insight. The vertical axis is describing the vedana, or feeling tone, of each particular phase. The center is neutral, the peaks are pleasant, and the troughs unpleasant. The horizontal axis is describing time, though in this case it’s not to-scale. Certain phases tend to take longer than others.]

The Dark Night, a term borrowed from the Christian mystic St. John of the Cross, describes a series of stages that follow one another quite closely. The first is Dissolution, in which phenomena are arising and passing so quickly that all that is noticed is actually the endings of phenomena. The subjective experience is very much of things dissolving, and falling away to quickly to really perceive clearly. After dissolution, you have stages with such fun names as, Fear, Misery, Disgust, & Desire for Deliverance. The mind goes through a series of intense reactions to the fact that reality is dissolving moment-to-moment. One’s attention becomes quite broad and unstable, and there is a very real sense that the ‘observer’ of experience is itself beginning to shake. There is also often an intensive emotional component to the dark night. During intensive practice it can feel as though one is being hit by wave after wave of intense emotions. After being hit by several small waves, one then has to handle the last stage of the dark night, called Re-observation. True to its name, it’s as if all the small earlier stages of the dark night combine into one, and one has to re-observe, or re-learn, the lessons of each. But this time instead of several small waves it’s one gigantic one! During this phase many people report having a difficult time sitting still at all, intense and primal feelings of frustration, and the most extreme mental upset imaginable. Re-observation is often called the “rolling up the mat” stage, as it can be so difficult that one feels compelled to just stop right here. And in fact many people do. If one is able to keep their resolve during re-observation and continue to pay attention to the constant arising and passing of phenomena then eventually it will subsist. It is not an immediate relief, but rather a gradual one.

Where, during the dark night, attention was broad but shaky, in the early part of this next stage, Equanimity, it starts to get a bit more stable. One begins to be able to sit for longer periods of time, and insights come naturally and organically. The neutral quality of experience predominates here (instead of the extreme highs and lows that preceded this stage), and as a result equanimity is often very peaceful and relaxed. Meditation can take on a more-or-less effortless quality toward the later part of the equanimity stage (what is called high equanimity). During high equanimity it is also common to slip into formless realms of concentration. It is at this point, that the conditions are ripe, for a spontaneous realization of emptiness to occur.

In the Theravada tradition, there are several moments, which occur in succession at the time of achieving the 1st stage of enlightenment. These are the 12th – 15th stages of the progress of insight map and include Conformity, Change of Lineage, Path, and Fruition. The 1st three moments are said to happen only once for each stage of enlightenment (4 in total) and the last, Fruition, is the actual event, which is referred to as emptiness or nirvana.

During the event of Fruition, which from the outside only takes a split second, all of reality blinks out of existence and then suddenly reappears. During the blink, or gap in reality, there is absolutely no sense of self, identity, observer, awareness, or anything else that would make think one that “they” have experienced anything in particular. As the late Bill Hamilton, wrote in his book Saints and Psychopaths, “Nirvana is an experience of the Unconditioned which defies any description. Any description of Nirvana is not a description of Nirvana, and that is the most that can be said about Nirvana. There are no reference points in Nirvana on which to base a description.” In the end one has to have this experience to know it, and as Hamilton points out, it is often an experience that defies any sort of easy description. Following Fruition there is a great sense of bliss that wells up, and a very real feeling that something important has happened (though it’s almost never what one expected). Some people describe it as a feeling of coming home, or of realizing that which they’ve most desired.

The last stage of the progress of insight is called Review. During review one begins to go through all of the previous stages, and almost immediately finds themselves in the arising and passing stage. They traverse this stage just as before, cross the A&P event, struggle through the dark night once again, emerge into equanimity, and once again reality blinks out for a moment with a Fruition. This cycle repeats itself again and again just like this until the territory has been thoroughly learned, hence the name Review. The only thing that changes is that during each progressive cycle, they become a bit easier and faster. Eventually a new full cycle of insight will emerge, and one will begin to work on the next stage of enlightenment. At this point they start all the way back at square one, but at a whole new layer of subtlety.

I see the progress of meditation as Upekkha. Upekkha is a Buddhist concept that is translated as "equanimity." Upekkha means something like: "I have see the unfamiliar and have experienced the unfamiliar. Through experience, the unfamiliar has become familiar. I am open to new things because all new things are part of the unfamiliar, which is familiar. I understand that surprise and boredom are reactions to the unfamiliar and the familiar. Since, the unfamiliar and the familiar are the same, surprise and boredom are the same. I am open to all these things and still others that I am yet to understand."

I see meditation as time spent remembering the side of yourself which sees things equanimously.

i personally enjoy meditating while reading the forums. i just observe people's personalities and watch how my mind reacts to certain post or posters. especially if there is conflict going on, as my emotions will get more involved giving me the chance to be more aware of my own emotions.

i even apply this in my day to day interactions with people.

Well no shit

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Nice, I agree with the above post except for one little point. Maybe at first meditation may seem like conditioning the mind. But in fact, the whole purpose is to uncondition the mind. To allow the mind to relax in its natural unconditioned state.
It might help you to know about the stages of meditation. These are not beliefs, but the stages of meditation everyone who meditates successfully goes through, no matter what their tradition or beliefs.

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I agree that one is reaching a state that feels like it's unconditioned, or rather yet, a form of unconscious regression and a state of submission (since you are accepting what comes to you and not resisting; which is what people would associate as letting yourself shift away from the ego). I admit that I didn't explain a bit further on what happens after a person conditioned themselves, I was mostly focusing on the beginning where mental blocks are a little harder to ease off from until a person has reached whatever state of hypnosis:

Which are 3 (in terms of depth)

Light (Lethargic), Cataleptic (Medium), Somnambulistic (Deep)

Most people go through the lethargic state at first (newcomers) where they feel like they can't "fight" the urge to sleep when in fact learning to just be aware and build up awareness is more beneficial than fixating on destroying the urge to sleep.

And from there, the other two states can be defined with getting into certain brain frequencies/waves --> (where all forms of meditation can start being applied).

(And I know meditation stages don't seem like conditioned responses at first, but when you do it more and more when it becomes "natural," that's what I meant by it being a conditioned response, but it's goes by so fast it doesn't feel conditioned).

It's sort of hard to explain it, but let's take an easy example.

Having 360 Vision in Lucid Dreams (or AP if you're willing to go that far):

It's an experience that just cannot be explained in words at first (before waking up), you just experience it. You start seeing how the mind automatically fills the gaps of the sensation to near perfection of the 360 vision (when you turn left, you're not literally turning left, you're just used to having to shift your body in reality that it transcends into the lucid dreaming experience).

It's more of just shifting your consciousness at a specific point, but you would see it as vision alternating since the brain still uses preconceptions of reality into a lucid dream (until a person does it often where they know it's just shifting their consciousness).

Another example would be a Point A to Point B type of lucid dream: You're really shifting consciousness from one point to another, but when you wake up, you would recall it as an experience. Because the brain can only conceptualize things within this dimension through experiences and such, this is why I included that it's a conditioned response, since after all, you would still need your brain to get into the "natural unconditioned state."

It becomes "Natural" because your brain conditioned itself based on its limits of this dimension to conceptualize and solidify it as an experience, but for you shifting consciousness into the natural unconditioned state, it can go from anywhere (which is when your stages of meditation starts getting more practical).

From that point, when your consciousness is able to get through those limits of the brain with ease, that's when you get into the state when things feel as if they could go on forever, and the more you magnify the few seconds, you as an individual can learn more within a short amount of time. (I'm trying to mention time dilation or deep meditation, but I know that might make people react a certain way).

Another example (I mentioned this in another thread) to show how one has to get their minds into that natural unconditioned state:

Imagine your subconscious/mind near a pool of water (but anywhere I say "you" in the example below, just imply it's the subconscious and parts it uses to process the experience of meditation).

Instead of going into it in one go, you would take your feet to test how hot or cold it is. Then you would make gradual shifts/steps into getting your whole body in the water. This is how it would feel for beginners, but when you practice it enough, subconsciously, it goes WAY faster because your subconscious knows that whatever conditioned response you use to meditate (either sitting down or imagining a dot when you look behind your closed eyes) it will go through the gradual shifts faser.

And since it goes faster, you barely even recognize it, thus having the feeling it becomes "natural" or "unconditioned."

So in short:

1. When you meditate, it's first a conditioned response that's gradual, because your subconscious is reformatting how the stages to get to a high state of suggestibility works.

2. Once it's accustomed to that reformatting (conditioning how it works for your desire of a specific goal (meditation)), then it starts getting faster, which to you feels "natural" and "unconditioned" because you barely see how the responses are being expressed.

3. From there, then your principles of the stages of meditation would apply when you're done with meditating because the brain conceptualizes it as an experience. And how would it interpret experiences? An example would be the pictures you showed of the steps/stages of meditation.

Hope this makes sense.

Hypnosis is conditioning, it is trance. Meditation is completely opposite. No trance, no somnambulism, no catalepsy, etc. Do you think enlightenment is a trance? lol. Two different things. Hypnosis=/=meditation. You can tell someone's level of experience by listening to their description. Where are you getting subconscious from? Meditation has nothing to do with subconscious, in fact subconscious is delusion to even believe in it.

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Hypnosis is conditioning, it is trance. Meditation is completely opposite. No trance, no somnambulism, no catalepsy, etc.

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So you're telling me when you go into a deep state of meditation, that it happens just like that without going into levels of trances? You're telling me that meditation is not an altered state of consciousness from the default waking consciousness? You're telling me hypnosis is not getting into a trance either?

And since meditation has no state of being Lehargic (feeling drowsy/sleepy/tiredness) at some point, that people who are relaxing their bodies during meditation wouldn't have those states prevalent at all? Lol.

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Do you think enlightenment is a trance? lol.

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Enlightenment is an endeavor, a goal to reach. So when people use "meditation" to reach a goal, it becomes a form of hypnosis. Because hypnosis is goal-oriented, while meditation is a form of "seeing what's happening" and NOT being fixated on a particular goal, they have aspects that are the same to each other.

It depends on whether or not you're using a westernized definition of hypnosis (where people think they give up voluntary actions, which is not the case)

People tend to think that because they enter a trance, they wouldn't be able to recall an event, when it fact examples of light states of trances would be when you drive a car, and while you're busy speculating on other things, you somehow are able to get to your destination. (You're in a trance, but it's a light state of trance because again, you're passively aware)...

Passively aware doesn't mean not aware at all, it's in-between, half-conscious/semi-concious.

The same with watching TV. You're fixating on the content within the device, passively acknowledging the environment around you. (Light trance)

The same when you're "meditating" while working in the office...you fixate on contemplation while being passively aware of your environment. (You go into a trance)

So when you seek enlightenment (which is a goal-oriented endeavor), you are fixating on the outcome to get there. Meditation has a goal itself: seeks to not be be goal-striving/goal-seeking (which is what enlightenment is sustained by); which is why it's just a specialized use of hypnosis.

---> If aiming to be aimless and non-striving is not a goal to you, then tell me what it really is then.

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Two different things. Hypnosis=/=meditation. You can tell someone's level of experience by listening to their description.

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So if meditation is to be goal-less essentially (based on what I said above), you're saying that enlightenment is not getting yourself into a trance to condition yourself into expectations of reaching enlightenment?

If enlightenment is a goal, and you're using meditation (which is to be goal-less, to just SEE what is SHOWING TO YOU without EXPECTATIONS and NOT engaging in that experience for too long)...don't you see the major contradiction there?

That's why I'm saying meditation is similar to hypnosis in general, since it has a goal to just aim to be aware of as many things as possible, but not fixate on just one thing.

I would said meditation (again) is just a specialized use of hypnosis, or specialized use of getting into trances to experience it.

Third Eye Meditation => goal-oriented in reaching a state pertaining to aspects of third-eye fundamentals

Merkaba Meditation => goal-oriented in reaching a state pertaining to aspects of Merkaba fundamentals

Nirvana => same thing

Seeking enlightenment through meditation ==> Same thing.

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Where are you getting subconscious from?

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It's just a label I'm using, I'm not saying it's just breaking down your subconscious, obviously it involves other aspects of your mind. I admit I'm using it too loosely, but generally if you want to aim for something, it's best to understand how the subconscious works (setting mantras in present tense for example to make them more efficient)

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Meditation has nothing to do with subconscious, in fact subconscious is delusion to even believe in it.

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Right. So the part of your mind that you're not generally aware of, that can influence your thoughts and actions is delusional to believe in it.

That makes perfect sense.

When a person says a mantra "I am relaxed," suddenly, the subconscious plays no role whatsoever in influencing the goal within the mantra.

That absolutely makes perfect sense then.

:facepalm:

So the next time I use meditation as a relaxation induction method, and I say "Relax" as a mantra, I'll just completely disregard the subconscious and other aspects of my mind that would work towards initiating that goal.

I'll just assume it's magical fairies that take the role and do everything for me while I go seek enlightenment. Yes, that does sound like a remarkable inference!

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Originally Posted by Linkzelda

You're telling me hypnosis is not getting into a trance either?

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Hypnosis IS trance work.

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And since meditation has no state of being Lehargic (feeling drowsy/sleepy/tiredness) at some point, that people who are relaxing their bodies during meditation wouldn't have those states prevalent at all? Lol.

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There is relaxation in proper meditation, but not trance.

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Enlightenment is an endeavor, a goal to reach. So when people use "meditation" to reach a goal, it becomes a form of hypnosis. Because hypnosis is goal-oriented, while meditation is a form of "seeing what's happening" and NOT being fixated on a particular goal, they have aspects that are the same to each other.

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You have the right idea about meditation there when you say it is not goal oriented. But when meditation is used as a means to achieve an end then it devolves into hypnosis but it won't work because hypnosis cannot go outside of trance. The sad thing is that the word enlightenment makes it sound goal oriented. But in fact, if it is a goal, it will never be achieved. It can only happen here and now (not in the future) as "seeing things as they really are". Just like in a dream the dream character cannot meditate and achieve enlightenment. That is illusion. The dream character cannot hope to achieve lucidity later in the dream. Lucidity only happens here and now.

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It depends on whether or not you're using a westernized definition of hypnosis (where people think they give up voluntary actions, which is not the case)

People tend to think that because they enter a trance, they wouldn't be able to recall an event, when it fact examples of light states of trances would be when you drive a car, and while you're busy speculating on other things, you somehow are able to get to your destination. (You're in a trance, but it's a light state of trance because again, you're passively aware)...

Passively aware doesn't mean not aware at all, it's in-between, half-conscious/semi-concious.

The same with watching TV. You're fixating on the content within the device, passively acknowledging the environment around you. (Light trance)

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I agree. Those are all trance states. In fact, day to day life is just wandering through different trance states. Most people have never experienced freedom from trance. Only enlightenment is free from trance states. Our own mind hypnotizes us. That constant chatter of thoughts and conceptual mind is the biggest trance. Meditation is allowing yourself to come out of trance slowly by being present and aware and alert. Sure, different layers of trance are gone through as we see through them and let them go.

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So when you seek enlightenment (which is a goal-oriented endeavor), you are fixating on the outcome to get there. Meditation has a goal itself: seeks to not be be goal-striving/goal-seeking (which is what enlightenment is sustained by); which is why it's just a specialized use of hypnosis.

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Seeking enlightenment is a neurotic fallacy. Enlightenment cannot be created. I totally agree with your description of meditation, except it is not hypnosis. I am interested though in using hypnosis to anchor states of mind discovered in meditation, however.

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---> If aiming to be aimless and non-striving is not a goal to you, then tell me what it really is then.

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That is tricky. Aiming to be aimless is a goal, and as such is a fallacy. We cannot aim to be aimless, or strive to be non-striving. This is the same game and is a trance in itself. So meditation is just observing this predicament with neutral awareness, and not trying to fix it. In fact, the dream character is the one who is aiming to be aimless and striving to be non-striving. Enlightened awareness just watches the dream character try to do the impossible with infinite patience. That is meditation.

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So if meditation is to be goal-less essentially (based on what I said above), you're saying that enlightenment is not getting yourself into a trance to condition yourself into expectations of reaching enlightenment?

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Exactly. The mistake is to think that you can transform your present awareness into enlightened awareness. It already is enlightened awareness. It is just the ego is identifying with it. The sense of self is claiming this awareness, but the sense of self has no awareness of its own. It is unaware. The sense of self is a thought sensation. A thought or a sensation cannot be aware. This awareness right now, without trance induced by thoughts hypnotizing us to believe that they are aware, is enlightened awareness. If we recognize that then we are lucid or enlightened.

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If enlightenment is a goal, and you're using meditation (which is to be goal-less, to just SEE what is SHOWING TO YOU without EXPECTATIONS and NOT engaging in that experience for too long)...don't you see the major contradiction there?

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Like I said, enlightenment cannot be a goal. What is enlightenment? Such a fancy word. What does it mean? I like to use the world "Liberation". Liberation from the self, not liberation of the self.

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That's why I'm saying meditation is similar to hypnosis in general, since it has a goal to just aim to be aware of as many things as possible, but not fixate on just one thing.

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Well, I guess that depends on the meditation method and the hypnosis method you are talking about. This is a very general comparison.

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Third Eye Meditation => goal-oriented in reaching a state pertaining to aspects of third-eye fundamentals

Merkaba Meditation => goal-oriented in reaching a state pertaining to aspects of Merkaba fundamentals

Nirvana => same thing

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Those are visualizations, which is more like hypnosis and less like meditation, or classical meditation. I guess people can call any focused mental activity meditation if they choose. But by meditation I mean the practice which allows trance to be replaced by clarity in the here and now. I am in meditation right now, and the method is called "Choiceless awareness". Look up that method, there is a nice little article on wikipedia about it. You can see that it is not trance. It is choiceless awareness. This is my day to day meditation method that happens automatically for me since I passed through the gateless gate. It is my default awareness.

And Nirvana! Nirvana is definitely not trance. Not meditation. not anything we can even conceive. It is pointless to even bring up Nirvana or attempt to talk about it. You might as well say that Nirvana is total absence of the mind/emotions/body/senses/world, not just the absence of perception. Nirvana could be called ultimate reality. None of these things are true descriptions of Nirvana, and nobody alive has any idea of what the true description of Nirvana is. So... let us forget about Nirvana.

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It's just a label I'm using, I'm not saying it's just breaking down your subconscious, obviously it involves other aspects of your mind. I admit I'm using it too loosely, but generally if you want to aim for something, it's best to understand how the subconscious works (setting mantras in present tense for example to make them more efficient)

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There is no such thing as the subconscious. Look it up. It is a new-age term. There is just consciousness and no consciousness. Unconscious is not a kind of consciousness, it is the absence of consciousness. So there is just consciousness and the absence of consciousness. You are either alive or you are dead. You are either awake or you are asleep. There is trance states.

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So the next time I use meditation as a relaxation induction method, and I say "Relax" as a mantra, I'll just completely disregard the subconscious and other aspects of my mind that would work towards initiating that goal.

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If you are aware of a subconscious then it isn't subconscious, it is conscious. If you are not aware of a subconscious, then there is no consciousness to be "sub". There is nothing that is "sub".

One thing I would like to clarify: Enlightenment is not a state of mind. It is not some high exalted experience. All states of minds and experiences are transitory and belong to the dream character. If you see that it is the dream character that is seeking enlightenment, but enlightenment is the death of the dream character and nothing it does can result in enlightenment. In lucid dream, is it the dream character that achieves lucidity? No. Enlightenment is not an experience or a state of mind, it is that which is present in all experiences and states of mind. It is your very nature. Trying to achieve that which you already are is a big source of confusion and suffering.

And if there is bound to be logical contradictions when using dualistic language to talk about what is essentially non-dual. When the paradox is right in your face you know you are on to something. So debate is useless besides a pleasant or unpleasant diversion. Our conceptual mind can never wrap itself around enlightenment, although it will never cease trying to. The ego would LOVE to become enlightened. Fortunately, it cannot, because the ego is a trance state.

We can always come back to the very accurate and real analogy of lucid dreams to understand enlightenment. In unlucid dreams, you are in a trance, where you are deceived by the sensations appearing as reality. But attaining lucidity in a dream, being lucid, is not a trance state.

Have you ever thought of taking a meditation class for it? I've never liked exploring things on my own, especially for meditation where I have no idea how much progress I'm making. I've only tried it a couple of times though and it feels like I'm either falling asleep or some energy is making my eyes open.

But I like the idea of meditation, currently I do other things to make myself feel at ease/peace if something is really irritating me very badly like reading a book or switching another thing to do.

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If you are aware of a subconscious then it isn't subconscious, it is conscious. If you are not aware of a subconscious, then there is no consciousness to be "sub". There is nothing that is "sub".

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That's just dependent if you're sticking to Freudian concepts, and even though the frameworks he proposed was a good basis for expansion on other terms (in terms of psychology obviously), most of his thinking was flawed. Anyway, if there's no subconscious, I guess there's no subconscious then.

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So meditation is just observing this predicament with neutral awareness, and not trying to fix it.

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That's a type of meditation called Mindfulness (which has many forms based on a religion/culture's take on it; such as Vipassana (Glossary of Transpersonal Terms)
(http://www.hinduwebsite.com/buddhism/glossary.asp#v)
(http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Buddhis...phy/Glossary#V)



There's many types of Meditation: 8 Basic Kinds of Meditation (And Why You Should Meditate On Your Heart)

And there are other sources you can look up on. Each type of meditation has a particular goal in mind.

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That is tricky. Aiming to be aimless is a goal, and as such is a fallacy. We cannot aim to be aimless, or strive to be non-striving. This is the same game and is a trance in itself. So meditation is just observing this predicament with neutral awareness, and not trying to fix it. In fact, the dream character is the one who is aiming to be aimless and striving to be non-striving. Enlightened awareness just watches the dream character try to do the impossible with infinite patience. That is meditation.

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I guess when using mindfulness meditation, this would be a fallacy. But either way, it is a goal or the principle behind it, but you don't fixate on it as much. And other methods, they do have a goal or principle in mind.

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One thing I would like to clarify: Enlightenment is not a state of mind. It is not some high exalted experience. All states of minds and experiences are transitory and belong to the dream character. If you see that it is the dream character that is seeking enlightenment, but enlightenment is the death of the dream character and nothing it does can result in enlightenment. In lucid dream, is it the dream character that achieves lucidity? No. Enlightenment is not an experience or a state of mind, it is that which is present in all experiences and states of mind. It is your very nature. Trying to achieve that which you already are is a big source of confusion and suffering.

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Enlightenment is simply having knowledge and having spiritual/subjective insight. Knowledge is earned through experience and/or education, that's not really something of confusion of suffering.

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

And if there is bound to be logical contradictions when using dualistic language to talk about what is essentially non-dual. When the paradox is right in your face you know you are on to something. So debate is useless besides a pleasant or unpleasant diversion. Our conceptual mind can never wrap itself around enlightenment, although it will never cease trying to. The ego would LOVE to become enlightened. Fortunately, it cannot, because the ego is a trance state.

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Again, ego is used interchangeably and it's used loosely as well, so I guess in your interpretation of it, it would work out in the statement you have in the quote above.

There isn't a single definition that could conform to various interpretations from it, the same with subconscious as well.

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

We can always come back to the very accurate and real analogy of lucid dreams to understand enlightenment. In unlucid dreams, you are in a trance, where you are deceived by the sensations appearing as reality. But attaining lucidity in a dream, being lucid, is not a trance state.

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Yes, non-lucid is non-aware of picking out the unrealistic parts of a dream (pink elephants flying etc.)
And Lucid is simply being aware of those abnormalities, or whatever conditions that aren't practical in waking life. (Being alert)

But we're not talking about lucid dreaming, it's meditation being mentioned.

Lucid dreaming may be led through meditation, but it even so, lucid dreaming is an altered state of consciousness. Completely different in consciousness within waking life. You're SHIFTING consciousness from waking to dreaming (which is what WILD if set upon). Even if you do MILD, DILD, DEILD, there is a shift in consciousness either way.

Trance is an altered state of consciousness as well and there are many types altered states of consciousness obviously.

Putting yourself into a trance - Oxford Hypnotherapy and Hypnosis

It's pretty straight-forward.

Yes, in fact we go through many states of consciousness in 24 hours. I would say that enlightenment is the ground state of awareness, the basic awareness that is present in all states. That is the awareness that is recognized whether one is lucid dreaming or enlightened. But yes that awareness is also in non-lucid dreams and in being drunk. But it isn't recognized. In order to recognize it we need to come out of trance.

From wikipedia:

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Ego is a Latin word meaning "I", which derives from the Greek word "Εγώ (Ego)" meaning "I", often used in English to mean the "self", "identity" or other related concepts.

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That is how I use the term. We all are really dream characters, I can testify to that. So when the dream character meditates, is he going to achieve enlightenment or is it a way to 'improve' the dream character? That is the paradox. That nothing the dream character can do will lead to its enlightenment. The dream character cannot become enlightened. The dream character doesn't even have any awareness. Yet, somehow it happens when the dream character has tried everything to achieve enlightenment and gives up. Then the awareness that has been there the whole time watching patiently wakes up and becomes lucid. How funny! How miraculous! And realizing that there are no problems and never have been any, all problems, all stress, is all just a dream! It feels like one has been carrying a 70 pound backpack for many lifetimes and one just put it down and now feels as if floating. The search for happiness and avoiding suffering is that burden that gets released in an instant of clear lucid seeing. For some reason some people pick up that burden again :?

The biggest mistake somebody can make when meditating is trying to cultivate a spacious transcendental timeless awareness behind one's eyes. This is fabricated awareness. A beautiful transparent thought luminous with awareness. But enlightenment is not fabricated. There is no self behind those eyeballs anyway, just a brain. There is no more awareness inside your head than outside it. In fact, most of our awareness is in front of our face. To let go of the dream character of the self is to be one with the world as it is in front of your face, not behind it. Enlightenment is non-dual. Reality is non-dual. So there is no duality between inside and outside the head. It feels like the head is gone. So there is no place to have a spacious awareness there. The world becomes the container of spacious awareness. The inner sky merges with the outer sky and there is only one sky. I feel like just a lifeless organism, that somehow is alive, running on its own batteries. Or like a vampire, the undead. But everything is beautiful, not gloomy and gothic. Emotions get liberated. How can somebody be lonely, angry, scared, stressed, etc. when one knows that this is just a dream and everybody, including myself, is a dream character?

I use the analogies of dreams, and you keep saying that we are not talking about dreams, we are talking about meditating while awake. But you see, it doesn't matter. It is all just sensations appearing out of awareness. Whatever state of mind one is in, whether confused, happy, high, low, it is all just sensations, whether dream or awake. So in enlightenment there are not so many different states of mind, even though they are, they are all the same and don't effect anybody, because there is nobody here. Different states of mind are just different sensations that appear to awareness, which never changes.

As for the different kinds of meditation, we can differentiate between two kinds: Those that do not fabricate anything, and those that do. Visualization and such are fabricating techniques. You are 'creating' an experience or a sensation. Or you are 'cultivating' chi, or whatever. Most yogic meditations are this kind. Kundalini yoga is this kind as well, manipulating energy, etc... These all involve a sense of self (ego) which performs the meditation. Then there are the kinds of meditation that are 'not-doing', just sitting and observing, not trying to create anything.
Out of this kind, there are two basic kinds: concentration and insight meditation. They go hand in hand. Every culture has these, but in different forms. In Buddhism the insight meditation is called "vipassana".
Although your true nature, which is enlightenment, is not fabricated (or else it wouldn't be your nature), that does not mean fabrication techniques are without value. They add a richness to enlightenment, and these techniques are best used after enlightenment has been achieved. Just like in dreaming. It is silly to try to practice dream control techniques when one isn't even lucid. What a foolish idea! So, all these fabrication techniques are foolish to try before enlightenment is achieved.

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

The biggest mistake somebody can make when meditating is trying to cultivate a spacious transcendental timeless awareness behind one's eyes. This is fabricated awareness. A beautiful transparent thought luminous with awareness. But enlightenment is not fabricated. There is no self behind those eyeballs anyway, just a brain. There is no more awareness inside your head than outside it. In fact, most of our awareness is in front of our face. To let go of the dream character of the self is to be one with the world as it is in front of your face, not behind it. Enlightenment is non-dual. Reality is non-dual. So there is no duality between inside and outside the head. It feels like the head is gone. So there is no place to have a spacious awareness there. The world becomes the container of spacious awareness. The inner sky merges with the outer sky and there is only one sky. I feel like just a lifeless organism, that somehow is alive, running on its own batteries. Or like a vampire, the undead. But everything is beautiful, not gloomy and gothic. Emotions get liberated. How can somebody be lonely, angry, scared, stressed, etc. when one knows that this is just a dream and everybody, including myself, is a dream character?

I use the analogies of dreams, and you keep saying that we are not talking about dreams, we are talking about meditating while awake. But you see, it doesn't matter. It is all just sensations appearing out of awareness. Whatever state of mind one is in, whether confused, happy, high, low, it is all just sensations, whether dream or awake. So in enlightenment there are not so many different states of mind, even though they are, they are all the same and don't effect anybody, because there is nobody here. Different states of mind are just different sensations that appear to awareness, which never changes.

As for the different kinds of meditation, we can differentiate between two kinds: Those that do not fabricate anything, and those that do. Visualization and such are fabricating techniques. You are 'creating' an experience or a sensation. Or you are 'cultivating' chi, or whatever. Most yogic meditations are this kind. Kundalini yoga is this kind as well, manipulating energy, etc... These all involve a sense of self (ego) which performs the meditation. Then there are the kinds of meditation that are 'not-doing', just sitting and observing, not trying to create anything.
Out of this kind, there are two basic kinds: concentration and insight meditation. They go hand in hand. Every culture has these, but in different forms. In Buddhism the insight meditation is called "vipassana".
Although your true nature, which is enlightenment, is not fabricated (or else it wouldn't be your nature), that does not mean fabrication techniques are without value. They add a richness to enlightenment, and these techniques are best used after enlightenment has been achieved. Just like in dreaming. It is silly to try to practice dream control techniques when one isn't even lucid. What a foolish idea! So, all these fabrication techniques are foolish to try before enlightenment is achieved.

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So if you are enlightened, and because you aware that all things in your awareness from emotions to physical senses are all just sensations, would you get mad if I told you, you were wrong? What if I pushed you around and tortured you. Would you not react in some way? Would you be afraid of feeling terrible pain or leaving behind someone who needs your help? Are you indifferent as to whether you feel joy, or live a life of bland imprisonment and are robbed of all things natural to human nature? Although you can say all things are a dream what significance does that have? Taking things less seriously? Does it make you a clown? Does it make you a rock incapable of feeling emotion and in different to whether you tumble or sit in one place for millions of years?

Also I think that the two meditations you described can be one of the same. When I sit and meditate I normally just allow all my thoughts and feelings to flow. And breath. I think that it allows the energy that is blocked up in my body to flow and I become aware of it. I feel the tension ease. I normally don't try to achieve anything. I think it's the same way your body can heal on it's own. You just allow it to heal. Not to say I'm right or your wrong I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

We all are really dream characters, I can testify to that.

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You can testify it as anecdotal evidence here, Beyond Dreaming, or any other forum or site that promotes open-minded things like this; even to anyone else in your reality, or in your case, dream characters (that are all part of your mind in a dream, since after all, they can't be dream characters if they aren't a part of your mind in a dream)....but I doubt you can testify it reasonably to the dream characters Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Neil de Grasse Tyson, or any scientist.

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Yes, in fact we go through many states of consciousness in 24 hours. I would say that enlightenment is the ground state of awareness, the basic awareness that is present in all states. That is the awareness that is recognized whether one is lucid dreaming or enlightened. But yes that awareness is also in non-lucid dreams and in being drunk. But it isn't recognized. In order to recognize it we need to come out of trance.

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Now you're mixing in trance again and implying we can't be aware of ourselves in it whatsoever. People can easily learn how to be aware in all trance states.

If you have evidence to testify against that as you do with your dream character analogy being as “reasonable” anecdotal evidence as anyone else testifying to Zeus, Flying Spaghetti monster, the Talking Teapot, Venus, etc....feel free to do so.

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From wikipedia:

That is how I use the term. We all are really dream characters, I can testify to that. So when the dream character meditates, is he going to achieve enlightenment or is it a way to 'improve' the dream character? That is the paradox. That nothing the dream character can do will lead to its enlightenment. The dream character cannot become enlightened. The dream character doesn't even have any awareness. Yet, somehow it happens when the dream character has tried everything to achieve enlightenment and gives up. Then the awareness that has been there the whole time watching patiently wakes up and becomes lucid. How funny! How miraculous! And realizing that there are no problems and never have been any, all problems, all stress, is all just a dream! It feels like one has been carrying a 70 pound backpack for many lifetimes and one just put it down and now feels as if floating. The search for happiness and avoiding suffering is that burden that gets released in an instant of clear lucid seeing. For some reason some people pick up that burden again :?

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I think you're completely disregarding our ability to improve ourselves through simple reasoning and analysis. As for happiness and avoiding suffering, people tend to see their friends and closed ones as fragments of who they are as a whole; be it personality, character, etc. (now don't assume I'm trying to be dualistic again literally).

Some people are not aware of certain lessons in life because they're too clouded with other situations they have to handle. Would you say growing up in a country where there's nothing but warfare, horrible distributions of the necessities of life, and higher difficulty in getting an education and making something for yourself is something where people can go, (Sarcasm noted by Italicized font)

"Oh, I have the ability to conquer all of this suffering with ease! I can conquer my difficulty to provide food for my family, to not become the next person to blow up from a suicide bomber or a gunshot. Because deep down inside, I know this is all a dream."

Applying positive thinking into reality being just a dream, it only applies to people who can get survive with ease, and it's even more convenient for the elite group of people who have it without actually putting a good amount of effort.

Suddenly understanding pain, which is a burden, doesn't need to be picked up on because it just leads to suffering, and there should be no understanding of how it feels to actually appreciate happiness because of the emotional reaction pain gives us. Suddenly seeing our loved ones die, which is a heavier pain that's a burden, suddenly is not of merit or value because HEY, we have enlightenment (it's all within us from the beginning in all states right?), so we don't need to worry about such petty things!

We don't need to worry about paying the bills, it's just a process we just put in there for the lulz. We don't need to worry about getting an education, it's just going to lead to nothing but living a bitter life. We don't need to build a resume, because after all, enlightenment that's within us in the beginning is more than enough of an enticing aspect that'll conquer everyone who has more experience than I do!

YES. I can see it now! On my resume, "AUTO ENLIGHTENED MODE 24/7, TAKE ME OR I'M OUT OF HERE...SPAMMING NIRVANA ALL DAY , I DON'T EVEN NEED THIS JOB!"

This dream like fantasy may work for your perception, but I doubt it'll work to some other person who's barely capable of having enough provisions to provide to his family. This ability of enlightenment that's the basis of all awareness definitely should have helped that person get by.

They have the knowledge to get by, and the insight to get by as well, they're just playing hard mode and not being aware of it!

But in reality, that's not the case. They do not have the knowledge simply because they either feel compelled there's no hope, that there's no need to introspection to get out of their difficult situation. And even if they did find ways, what in the world could they possibly do in the first place? I doubt they can get their dream money and help them out.

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

The biggest mistake somebody can make when meditating is trying to cultivate a spacious transcendental timeless awareness behind one's eyes. This is fabricated awareness.

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(Sarcasm noted in Italicized font again)

Fabricated awareness? Oh, I thought that all awareness was accessible with ease since enlightenment was the basis of all awareness that's real and true? If this cultivation is a pretentious awareness, could that also mean that there's a higher chance that meditation itself is completely a fabricated awareness altogether? Since we do have enlightened as that basis, the whole sitting down, letting your thoughts gather, we don't need to do that!

How could I, a dream character, learn anything through meditation!

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A beautiful transparent thought luminous with awareness. But enlightenment is not fabricated. There is no self behind those eyeballs anyway, just a brain.

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Well physically, it's obvious it's just a bunch of optical nerve endings, veins, and an organ that makes up a small percentage of our body but uses more than 20% of the oxygen and energy coming in.

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There is no more awareness inside your head than outside it. In fact, most of our awareness is in front of our face. To let go of the dream character of the self is to be one with the world as it is in front of your face, not behind it. Enlightenment is non-dual. Reality is non-dual. So there is no duality between inside and outside the head. It feels like the head is gone. So there is no place to have a spacious awareness there. The world becomes the container of spacious awareness.

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So you're telling me in a lucid dream (inside of our heads), we cannot have more awareness than what occurs outside our heads? So you're telling me when you fixate on the details in the dream (applying awareness), when you fixate on the flower in the dream, it doesn't become more vivid than any other flower in waking life?

That it's just based solely on how we would see a flower in waking life (or the pseudo-dream world in waking life)? Suddenly other aspects of our mind that have now put less focus on external stimuli in waking life in order to augment clarity and vividness clearly has is no more awareness than what we have outside?

So when I a person screams “Clarity NOW!” in their lucid dreams, them seeing their dream environment go from zero to 1080p HD in a matter of a few split seconds isn't more than the awareness we have in waking life?

Suddenly we can multi-task without the brain having to compensate only on one or two task at most without causing a malfunction? We're completely devoid of the limits of the brain? Because after, we have enlightenment, we have knowledge and insight to make all those prevalent limits hocus pocus!

And how are you so sure the world is the only container of spacious awareness, what if there's a universe within our minds, what if there's a universe within that dream character you see? Are you aware of that universe? Are you aware of the multiverse as well?

I doubt it. Because the logic with the enlightenment being this basis of all awareness clearly applies to that, and that's nothing more than delusions.

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The inner sky merges with the outer sky and there is only one sky. I feel like just a lifeless organism, that somehow is alive, running on its own batteries. Or like a vampire, the undead. But everything is beautiful, not gloomy and gothic. Emotions get liberated. How can somebody be lonely, angry, scared, stressed, etc. when one knows that this is just a dream and everybody, including myself, is a dream character?

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I know right? How can someone exhibit these negative traits when they can just know it's a dream, and say, “Pfffft I got this!!”

Those damned people and their anxiety! If only they knew!

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I use the analogies of dreams, and you keep saying that we are not talking about dreams, we are talking about meditating while awake. But you see, it doesn't matter. It is all just sensations appearing out of awareness. Whatever state of mind one is in, whether confused, happy, high, low, it is all just sensations, whether dream or awake. So in enlightenment there are not so many different states of mind, even though they are, they are all the same and don't effect anybody, because there is nobody here. Different states of mind are just different sensations that appear to awareness, which never changes.

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Yep, we have that enlightenment within us, we don't need to use reasoning and rationalization, it's just a pain from the ego! Why search when we have it already!?!?!

Dang it, I knew I shouldn't have been empathetic towards others and trying to understanding myself! It was in me all along!

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Out of this kind, there are two basic kinds: concentration and insight meditation. They go hand in hand. Every culture has these, but in different forms. In Buddhism the insight meditation is called "vipassana".

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Concentration and insight go hand in hand because they are essentially the same.

Insight involves some kind of deep introspection or deep contemplative thought that requires a degree of deep concentration. Insight is fixating on a deeper aspect and concept, which goes back to concentration.

And remember, from the logic you stated, they're non-dual right? There's no duality at all!

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Although your true nature, which is enlightenment, is not fabricated (or else it wouldn't be your nature), that does not mean fabrication techniques are without value. They add a richness to enlightenment, and these techniques are best used after enlightenment has been achieved. Just like in dreaming. It is silly to try to practice dream control techniques when one isn't even lucid. What a foolish idea! So, all these fabrication techniques are foolish to try before enlightenment is achieved.

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Again, with this mentioning on fabrication techniques and their value, I don't think I was arguing to that. But if you stating it just for the sake of stating it, okay.

Dannon - I have a couple of questions. Will concentration meditation help me become lucid? Maybe improve memory? Also, what does it mean when I'm trying to focus on something in meditation and my eyes start flicking all over the place like I'm in REM?

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Originally Posted by saltyseedog

So if you are enlightened, and because you aware that all things in your awareness from emotions to physical senses are all just sensations, would you get mad if I told you, you were wrong? What if I pushed you around and tortured you. Would you not react in some way? Would you be afraid of feeling terrible pain or leaving behind someone who needs your help? Are you indifferent as to whether you feel joy, or live a life of bland imprisonment and are robbed of all things natural to human nature? Although you can say all things are a dream what significance does that have? Taking things less seriously? Does it make you a clown? Does it make you a rock incapable of feeling emotion and in different to whether you tumble or sit in one place for millions of years?

Also I think that the two meditations you described can be one of the same. When I sit and meditate I normally just allow all my thoughts and feelings to flow. And breath. I think that it allows the energy that is blocked up in my body to flow and I become aware of it. I feel the tension ease. I normally don't try to achieve anything. I think it's the same way your body can heal on it's own. You just allow it to heal. Not to say I'm right or your wrong I don't know.

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The whole Nihilism thing! lol. I am not a nihilist, if that is what you are asking. No, in fact poisonous emotions like envy, anger, greed, etc. transform into the radiant wisdoms. Sensations become vivid like in a lucid dream because they are not grasped on to by a mind. There is wonder, bliss, it satisfies each moment, rest, coming home, non-dual unconditional love, nothing is taken personally. You see that all the suffering in the world is all people's own doing. It is an opening of the heart.

Emotions are felt in a pure way. They are not grasped at or avoided. They are liberated into bliss. There is a need to share the bliss. It is creative and inspirational. It is overflowing, like a lucid dream. You see all visuals are made of rainbow light. So not only is everything completely empty of any inherent existence, like a dream, it continuously appears full of infinite mind. The bright mind. Everything is illuminated.

But everything is not always hunky dory. There are times when I seem to have 'lost' it, but I know better, but I am no longer realizing that it is here. Then there is trying to catch balance. And I still have to make a living. I still have to pay bills. I still have to function in society as if I am a real person. There are times of nihilism, and meaningless, and times of forgetting the fullness. It is a process, and I am not at the end, only the beginning. It is like shaky lucidity in the beginning...then it gets more stable....There are times of loneliness because everyone is asleep and there is nobody to talk to. There are times of learning weird lessons about freewill or the lack thereof. I got caught in a strange loop during the holidays where I didn't get out of bed. There was no reason to. For about ten days I only left the bed to eat or use the bathroom. I was trying to figure out what is the cause for motivation. If there is no self, who decides to get out of bed? So I realized that the desire to get out of bed is just a thought in a train of thoughts that are all dependent on causes, and if I were to break myself from that train of thought and abide in instant presence, the present moment is already happening and there is nothing I can do to change it. So I just layed in bed for ten days waiting for a cause to get me out of bed, which was to use the bathroom of eat. So it isn't always hunky dory on the path. I haven't had a job in a year because it is meaningless. I don't know how I have money to live, but somehow it comes.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Dannon - I have a couple of questions. Will concentration meditation help me become lucid? Maybe improve memory? Also, what does it mean when I'm trying to focus on something in meditation and my eyes start flicking all over the place like I'm in REM?

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Yes concentration is great, but it must be easy and effortless. Like resting your weary mind and heart in the concentration. It is called "calm abiding". At first it will take some effort and vigilance, but try to relax and focus. At some point you will enter a phase where concentration becomes smooth, stable, clear, and easy. This is called access concentration. Once you have access concentration, the world is yours. YOu can travel up and down the various concentration absorbtions and formless worlds, or relax focus and turn attention to every sensation and just notice and relax and center into subtler subtler layers. This is insight meditation, and leads all the way to enlightenment.

Access concentration is the first dhyana (absorbtion). I believe there are 7 worldly dhyanas and 4 formless dhyanas. But knowledge of lucid dreaming is in there.

I don't know anything about eyes flicking. That sounds fun. There is a jnana (stage of insight) in insight meditation where there are all kinds of bodily symptoms and twitches and obsessing with posture and feeling tight neck, etc. and you have to pass through that to get to access concentration.

Linkzelda, I am not trying to convince anybody. If you do not accept it, that is fine. I am definitely not trying to convince Richard Dawkins. I believe in letting people believe in the illusion of freewill. And it is not my mind. It is not your mind. It is one mind. There is only one mind here and it is the one that is reading this sentence right now. This mind is always enlightened. It is beyond conception, analysis, understanding. But it is undeniable. This self-recognition is not possible in trance, as it is 'natural' mind, unconditioned mind, etc. When I am saying being aware of true natural mind, I am talking about primordial awareness prior to sensation. It is the ego which claims this awareness. Thoughts are not aware, and the ego is a thought. Trances are clouds covering the naked sky of natural mind. I am not saying that our physical bodies don't exist. I am saying that this whole experience including our physical bodies is a dream. Not my dream. Each one of us is dreaming, but there is only one of us. Haha!!! It cannot be understood by its very nature, but there it is! When you are looking at somebody in the eyes, you can see if they are hypnotized by their thoughts. When you are seeing your thoughts or listening to your thoughts, your eyes gloss over, everything becomes duller. You are not seeing reality as it is manifesting in the present moment. It is like the thoughts hover in front of your eyes. You are "daydreaming". You can see it in others as well. You can direct that trance if you impose your will over them.

Either you are aware of reality as it is happening in this moment or you are in a thought trance. We need to set up reality checks: Am I awake? lol. Reality is that which continues to exist after you stop believing in it.

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

I don't know anything about eyes flicking. That sounds fun. There is a jnana (stage of insight) in insight meditation where there are all kinds of bodily symptoms and twitches and obsessing with posture and feeling tight neck, etc. and you have to pass through that to get to access concentration.

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That sounds like where I'm at then. Lol it actually IS kinda fun, but not really what I'm aiming for. Ok, Ill just go with it when it happens and enjoy the ride. Interesting you mention tight neck etc - just earlier tonight I looked up some yoga to relieve tension in the neck and shoulders, which feels amazing! I'm going to learn more yoga.

^ Actually thinking more about it, I passed through the twitching restless stage a long time ago (though I quit meditating for like a year and am just picking it back up). I'm able to sit motionless for a good long time and don't have any other problems with it physically or mentally other than sometimes a lot of internal chatter and like I said my eyes darting left and right as I try to look at something. The stiff neck/back thing doesn't bother me in meditation, I just became aware of it because of some deep breathing exercises I've been doing that have really opened up my chest and now I can't help but notice how tight my neck and shoulders and upper back are.

I wonder if darting eyes mean I'm going too deep into relaxation and getting near sleep?

Possibly. I would recommend just observing the sensations of twitching eyes with choiceless awareness and not reading into them too much.

Choiceless awareness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just notice it as a transient sensation that appears. Who is it appearing to? :shadewink:

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

The whole Nihilism thing! lol. I am not a nihilist, if that is what you are asking. No, in fact poisonous emotions like envy, anger, greed, etc. transform into the radiant wisdoms. Sensations become vivid like in a lucid dream because they are not grasped on to by a mind. There is wonder, bliss, it satisfies each moment, rest, coming home, non-dual unconditional love, nothing is taken personally. You see that all the suffering in the world is all people's own doing. It is an opening of the heart.

Emotions are felt in a pure way. They are not grasped at or avoided. They are liberated into bliss. There is a need to share the bliss. It is creative and inspirational. It is overflowing, like a lucid dream. You see all visuals are made of rainbow light. So not only is everything completely empty of any inherent existence, like a dream, it continuously appears full of infinite mind. The bright mind. Everything is illuminated.

But everything is not always hunky dory. There are times when I seem to have 'lost' it, but I know better, but I am no longer realizing that it is here. Then there is trying to catch balance. And I still have to make a living. I still have to pay bills. I still have to function in society as if I am a real person. There are times of nihilism, and meaningless, and times of forgetting the fullness. It is a process, and I am not at the end, only the beginning. It is like shaky lucidity in the beginning...then it gets more stable....There are times of loneliness because everyone is asleep and there is nobody to talk to. There are times of learning weird lessons about freewill or the lack thereof. I got caught in a strange loop during the holidays where I didn't get out of bed. There was no reason to. For about ten days I only left the bed to eat or use the bathroom. I was trying to figure out what is the cause for motivation. If there is no self, who decides to get out of bed? So I realized that the desire to get out of bed is just a thought in a train of thoughts that are all dependent on causes, and if I were to break myself from that train of thought and abide in instant presence, the present moment is already happening and there is nothing I can do to change it. So I just layed in bed for ten days waiting for a cause to get me out of bed, which was to use the bathroom of eat. So it isn't always hunky dory on the path. I haven't had a job in a year because it is meaningless. I don't know how I have money to live, but somehow it comes.

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That's kind of sad and happy, and like hopeless and hopeful or something. I'm sort of trying to get a job. But I don't really want one. I don't seem to fit in anywhere. But yet same as you things tend to manifest in my life to help me along despite it all. I think an idea and the next day the idea presents it self in my life. I struggle and hurt, but always learn more. Also unrelated to the topic I've been considering becoming a traveling vagabond. And I know you've been that way much of your life. Could you give me some kind of advice? I mean maybe in pm. Kind of a vague question but I kind of look up too you in a way.

Yes it is sad and happy. But it is way happier. To be free! To see reality! To be liberated from the self! To know this is all a dream! And I am not the lonely dreamer! We are all one dreamer!
Sometimes I think about how to teach this. Words have always been used, but sometimes a look, a gesture, holding up a flower, or a mirror, or a crystal has worked

It is like becoming a vampire. First you have to die, you see your dream character fall away. Everything you have known falls away. Then you awaken to your new senses and everything is new and splendid! But it takes a little while to learn to use them skillfully. Then you are undead. Not living, not dead, but both.

And the funny thing is that nothing has changed, you see it has been this way forever! Hahaha!