No, why don't you tell me.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmind
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No, why don't you tell me.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmind
But you already started this particular discussion by challenging the power of my freewill, so it would be impossible at this point because I'm going to use the word Magic just to spite you. There was definitely a chance that I could have been convinced to start using the word Magick in order to avoid confusion with Stage Magic, but that chance is shot now because of my stubborn nature and intrinsic need for self-volition.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcwillis
On the smoking thing, unfortunately I already quit smoking without using a ritual.
I am curious, after 35 years, have you used Magic to accomplish anything? Because I would be interested in pursuing the study of magic in order to ease the suffering of the world. I understand you may not share my ambition, but I'm curious what you believe you are now capable of, given your extensive background.
You haven't been spiteful at all. I am sat in the camp of metaphysical libertarianism with regards to the philosophical point of free will. I am assuming that from the general course of our discussion that you are coming from the same viewpoint as my own. However, you may be saying say that me being able to control your free will is impossible because you may be a hard determinist and from that viewpoint then yes it would be impossible for me to control your free will. If it is the case that we are diametrically opposed in our philosophical viewpoints then there should be no more said on the matter. The confusion between the meaning of the word magic has been resolved on this thread so I don't mind which word anyone uses, magic ot magick. My reason for saying that I would have infringed your free will is that as a sentient being you have the choice as to which of the two words available you want to use in this discussion. You have used the freedom of your will to make that choice and you have chosen the word magic over the other word magick. What I am saying is that it is possible through magickal means to order your consciousness to use the other word thus removing your freedom to use your own will to choose which word you want to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
I brought that up as it is one of my own rituals and it works miraculously in the sense that there aren't any withdrawl symptoms after it is performed. As nicotine addiction is one of the most powerful drug addictions known to man it is rather quite awesome how this magick works to make stopping smoking completely automatic and effortless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
I was reluctant to join this thread for two days because of of the likelihood of comments such as Dianeva's. But I sensed that you probably have a fascination about magick and are open minded about this ancient art so I decided to join in. I wouldn't have studied and practiced magick for such a long period of time if it didn't work. If we were sat at table and I told you what I am capable of and you were open minded to what I was saying you would probably not want to cross my path ever again out of plain fear. Having said that, I am what is generally termed a white magician in the sense that I use magickal powers to enrich my own life and that of others rather than use magick for malevolent purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
[EDIT] I should have mentioned that your ambitions are lofty ones and mere mortals really don't have that much power individually to ease the suffering of the world through magickal means. Though when groups of magicians come together for such a purpose than small changes can be wrought. I remember a group did come together to attempt to reduce the level of crime in the large town that they lived in. They worked on this goal for a period of one month. For that month the level of crime recorded by local law enforcement showed a significant drop compared to the average amount of crime commited over an average month. This is highly debateable of course.
Take this opportunity to actually research something for once. Then report back with what you've learned.Quote:
Originally Posted by ♥Mark
Cmind, if you're so smart why is it so difficult for you to explain anything?
Cmind might have a grangy master arrogance bot pulling his strings
:banana::parapet::laughtillhurts::lol:BANISH the BOT:lol::parapet::morecrying:
join the fools parade, we have ice melting in whiskey glasses
ritual for free:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaQz48WNdtE
Maybe, but don't tell anyone. This is our little secret, labyrint.Quote:
Originally Posted by labyrint
You are already creating the reality you are experiencing, and I always pictured magik and rituals as simply taking conscious control of the process. Any system or structure is a tool to alter your self, so by reflection your reality changes as well.
Potentially irrelevant story:
In high school my Physics teacher (a young man) believed in witchcraft. I asked him why, and he told me that there are many things that we can't explain with science. I was just absolutely amazed that he would give such a stupid answer. I basically said to him 'people used to think the sun revolved around the earth, and I'm sure they couldn't imagine the actual answer being explained by science'.
End.
Yeah but Patrick, you're making the assumption that witch-craft couldn't be explained scientifically some day. That's what I thought your teacher was getting at when I heard you quote him just now. If you find a system successful and repeatable, whether or not there exists a rational explanation for it yet doesn't mean there never will.
OK fair enough, but he said that science could not explain witchcraft, so I took that to mean that he thought witchcraft was beyond science. And I don't think anything is beyond science. So like you say, if he'd said "witchcraft has a scientific explanation we just haven't found yet" then fair enough, but that's not what I got from what he was saying.
Well I can't speak for your teacher but my opinion on the subject is that in its current form, no matter how skeptical the observer, Scientists assume for the result to be scientifically verifiable their attitude cannot affect the result. This disconnection between expectation and result will have to change before Science can grasp Witch-craft. Once we can objectively understand the power of our expectations, we stand a chance at objectively understanding Magic.
From Liber Null
"The purpose of performing magic is not the test efficacy of performing magic. If it is performed in this spirit of challenge, the subconscious challenge for it to fail will be the only result which manifests"
So you're saying basically that magic is all in our heads...?
No...? The attitude of the observer affects the result. We are all magicians, all the time. To attempt to verify magic from the position of challenge, you are essentially casting a spell to prevent the desired result.
I don't really get what you're trying to say, but it doesn't sound like science and magic are compatible.
Again, like I already said, scientists cannot study magic until they correct the assumption they have that attitude does not influence result.
So you have to believe that magic is a legitimate phenomenon or it isn't? I suppose for a majority of the world that means it isn't. The reason this isn't compatible with science isn't because your attitude can affect the result, it's because with everything else, you don't have to believe it exists in order for it to still exist. I could never have known bread--seen it, tasted it, touched it, smelled it, anything. I could dismiss reports of bread existing as a myth. Yet, it's still a thing, others see it, touch it, smell it, and eat it all the time. Someone could bring me a piece of bread and I can see that I was wrong without having to first change my beliefs based on nothing.
How can you expect anyone to believe that magic is real if they have to believe in it beforehand for it to work? Suspending disbelief is not the same as believing, you need concrete evidence.
As I said, you're already affecting the world with your beliefs all the time anyways. You may as well use it positively. This is not just a problem with magic. Its a problem with the nature of reality in general. Attitude affects result. As long as the pretense exists within the scientific community that this is not the case, scientists will remain incapable of proving it otherwise because that's the nature of the power of attitude.
I agree with Omnis here, but I understand why others do not.
Reality is perception. There are an infinite number of possible perceptions. Think of yourself like the tuning dial on a radio. Out of infinity, without bounds, you choose what you access by changing your receiving ability - your perception.
This realm is a mass agreed upon reality. There has been an agreement that certain things will be likely to occur in such a reality, and other things not. We have labeled what is likely to occur "real" and what is beyond this temporary agreement as "unreal" or impossible. Understand that existence is without any bounds or structure; it is the power of perception which limits infinity into what you now experience. The catch 22 is that science, by trying to remain objective, has created a reality where objectivity exists - and therefore separation. With separation comes all the limitations of separation.
Magick is simply realizing this is such, and changing your perception to push the limits of this mass agreed reality as far as you can.
Still just sounds like it's all in your head to me. Sorry.
What does it even mean to be all in your head?
I mean you're just imagining that it exists. The only way that it exists in any physical way is as the connections in your brain which encode your belief in magic.
Omnis Dei, I am willing to answer any questions you or others here have about magic. I have extensive experience in the subject for about 30 years now. I also am highly educated in science. (doctorate)
I am not very interested in debating with any one who already has a closed mind, and loves to argue, so I will be ignoring all comments that strike me as confrontational.
Mcwillis is a good guy with alot of good thoughts, but some of you will be put off by what seems like a lack of practical description, and the terms he may choose to use. I for my own purposes would choose to avoid terms like Magician, Mage, Psycic, or any thing that puts readers off. We each have our own way of communication. I am fine with staying with very down to earth scientic ways of expression.
I am not going to just start writing a theisis on random magic topics, so everyone can feel free to ask some questions. I will adress a few that have already came up to start with. I need to look back through the thread. Will post again in a minute.
Ok, her are some quick answers. They will not be very in depth, unless someone asks for a follow upon them, because I have to go somewhere soon. The numbers will refer to the post I pulled the question from.
1) What is it? For my purpose in this thread, harnessing "energy" that is able to be precieved and manipulated by the practitioner. The process of tuning yourself to feel, generate and use it, are not quickly gained, just like a musician learning to identify tones like A flat, B minor, and so on. Thousands of techniques are available to start this process. The "energy" is describide in other cultures with words such as Ki, Chi, or Prana. Other forms of "magic" exist, but unless someone asks, I will just stick to this one item. Why believe? Some people it is just faith, however, if you practice the basic techniques until you can feel the energy yourself, you believe because you feel something new that is a real sensory preception. Better yet, if you are someone or with someone who pulls off shocking and miraculous things, then your belief is based on experience. Prove this? No thanks, if I care about someones growth and feel they are honest and good person, I have usually been able to demonstrate.
I have to go soon, and do not really have time to proof read this. I just kind of tried to throw out a few simple answers to what has been brought up. I am willing to discuss anything someone may question or be curious about, as long as it is not presented in a confrontational way.
4) The term ritual magic is brought up. The actual forces at play can be manipulated withh no outward action at all, by the person who is confident and very powerful. Why ritual? The human mind is involved with the manipulation of the energy. A person can reinforce there mental confidence and visualization by involving themselves in any number of activities. Think of this like studying for a test. Some people can sit, watch a lecture, then pass a test; others will need to use 'rituals' such as re-writing thier notes, speaking there notes allowed, or using flash cards.
8)What is magic if not physically impossable? Everything is science. The term magic is used when the science is hard to grasp and wwe do not have imperical tests that easily prove or explain. It is not going to be able to produce results outside of natural law. It is however one more source of energy that can be feed into a physics equation. In physics everything can be assigned a type of energy, a direction (vector), and a measure of how much energy. In order to move an object you figure in all opposing forces and must provide enough energy to counter those forces. The results of magic will always be able to be blamed on coincidence. When a rain dancer has a good result bringing rain in a drought, a doubter can always say 'it probably would have rained anyways'
13)Opposing someones free will. Two factors are here. As above, to move an object you must overcome opposing forces. A weak mind like an animal is far easier to influance than a well developed mind. An intelligent human is very strong at fighting any attempt to compramise thier free will. Second, the reason I will carefully select who I help in any great detail, is it is far more harmful to the practitioner to do something horrible, like using magic to help seduss someone than anything else. The goal does not even need to suceed to cause harm. The mere intent to force your will on another is bad for the spirit.
17)Subtly moving things in the casters favor. This is the best and most effective form of magic. The more subtle it is the better the results, the less miraculous it appears the more likely it is to work. That is because of the physics thing again. think of if we wanted to prevent an asteroid from hitting earth. Using a nuke hours before it hits, would take the energy of, lets say a nuke. If instead a year before it was to hit, you bounced another small asteroid into it, you could 'subtly' change its course enough to make it miss earth, for just the energy expense of throwing a stone the size of a car at it.
27)Have you accomplished anything? What is it good for? Through subtly guiding things I have become more attractive, more intelligent, had outstanding luck and success, in almost everything I have wanted. My life has involved almost unlimited sex with good looking women, a powerful presence that impresses most who cross my path, I have moved from the child of a single mom to a very wealthy man,,, and so on. How about profound magic? I do not always succeed at all these things, expessially if I try to show off (that usually leads to poor results) I can usually calm an animal with energy so that I can preform minor opperations on them with no anastisia, I have often been able to dramatically change the weather, like opening a whole in a storm directly above me so that me and my friends can be dry while out in a storm (that does not always work). I have been able to create near perfect weather when i go on vacation, like 80 degree cloudless weather in Seattle for instance. I do not want to continue this line of answering at the moment, because it sounds like bragging. Just a sample though 'of what I have accomplished' with magic.
42)does it take belief for it to exist? If it did would it be outside of science? Look up basic quantum theory. One of the first tests the talk about is sending a sheet of electrons through two slits in paper. The results are always different if someone watches the experiment. We call that science, but it depends on someone having expectations tto get a result. Here are two big issues. 1)the skill of using this energy is only gained through cultivation of very subtle brain skills. If someone has doubt about weather something can be done, they are naturally less likely to be able to do it. Think of how much detail and subtle skill it ttakes a gymnist to do a difficult feat. If they lack confidence they are going to hesitate and be less likely to preform the difficult task. 2) Every person exurts this form of energy to a small degree, even wwithout training. So if someone is watching you try to use magic for a result the are convinced will not happen, thier small amount of energy is added to the list of opposing energy that must be overcome to accomplish the task. A large crowd of un-believers would exert a strong force that actually would make the task harder to accomplish.
A Scientist studying Magic would make no progress under the pretense that Imagination is strictly separate from Physical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick
It does not mean it is impossible to study Scientifically, only that a Scientist must take an empirical position on the nature of the Imagination and it's relationship with the Physical.