chakras, diet, zodiac, astral experiences, and power

This branches off of the chakras thread. (Arguably it would be better suited for a spiritual growth forum, but I don't know of any good ones, and it has 'beyond dreaming' tie-ins.)

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Originally Posted by sivason

Physical law says animals must eat, free will allows them to eat other creatures. God is no less present.

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A challenge we face of course is that having chosen to eat other creatures (assuming that's how that started) we create a condition where for a time we no longer have a choice. Moreover, as individuals we're affected by choices that other people make. I'm vegan, but I depend on an environment where I can find adequate nutrition that way, and that depends on other people.

For me there's a huge gap between my moral vision and my actual condition. The moral visions of most religious philosophies seem watered down to me, and don't adequately address my core concerns. More radical philosophies often over-simplify and over-reach, creating more harm than good if practiced in earnest. So I seek a more effective synthesis of my vision with my current state.

I don't think that seeking spiritual development is the whole solution, even though such seeking is a natural and necessary part of life. In a world where animals don't eat other animals, if such a world is possible, I think there will still be a variety in depth and type of development. I think that if we just seek to develop spiritually, without making other essential changes, in the short run we will seem to progress in power and knowledge, but in the very long run what we build up will fall again, and something like what we have now will arise from the ashes. Tentatively, I think that insincerity, in all its forms, is a core issue.

On the subject of Chakras, which map in a fairly straightforward way to a zodiac (top chakra is at aries, bottom one is at libra.) The principles of creation, preservation, and destruction that you mentioned seem fairly natural and fundamental to me, a little more than just a human construct, even though there are other ways of thinking about it also. The zodiac seems to me to be two nested cycles from unmanifest to manifest and back again, unrolled across 12 points. Its symmetries are instructive, and I think the basic pattern is even built into the human body, hence the chakras for instance. I don't think its a pattern that's fundamental to the design of the universe though. As I have suggested before, this is one reason I've been seeking alternative descriptions of 'higher planes' and 'astral matter' - those are ideas that come out of cosmologies built on the zodiac. Since chemistry and physics on the 'lowest' plane clearly do not map to the zodiac, it seems implausible to me that the 'higher worlds' would. At most, our zodiac consistent experiences of higher worlds would reflect the design of our bodies, which is the way it is for practical reasons and for some aspects of our education.

I've brought up the topic of sex before, but haven't gotten anything yet that I recognize as useful feedback. From your 'energy' understanding (sivason), certainly you can see how sexuality affects our spiritual experiences? My awareness of God and the universe is strongly qualified by my understanding of power, which metaphorically that understanding is phallic. When I think a thought, on any subject, my awareness of power in that thought is phallic, so to speak. I'd like to find other ways of thinking about this. If possible I would also like to change my tendency to involuntarily astral project succubi when sleeping. I can see that there are karmic consequences of that which aren't in the direction I would like to go, plus it interferes with my other thinking.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

As another aside that may be illustrative of the God issue, A Course in Miracles is an example of a teaching that holds God to be perfect, and our own spirits, as extensions of God, to be perfect. According to this philosophy our apparent imperfection is delusional, and healing is a matter of changing our perceptions. Fear, guilt, and aggression, in this view, are always entirely insane as reactions to things. I've read the book through twice carefully, long as it is, and think I benefited from it. But I have this criticism: if the whole source of wrong and suffering in our experience is our own perception, and if following the Course will change that perception, as it promises, then what happens if we do that and there is still wrong and suffering? It must be our fault, we must not really be following the course with our whole minds. Since that's our own doing, unavoidably we feel guilt about it. And the Course is the answer to guilt, so we practice it and believe in it with even more earnestness, thereby tying ourselves in tighter and tighter knots.

It seems to me that believing in divine infallibility has a similar kind of hazard attached to it, even though it may not be as relentlessly comprehensive as it is in the Course. At some level it becomes painfully difficult to admit a fault, because we strongly believe there is no fault at that level, and we regard that belief as crucial to our spiritual well being.

I can see that a person can get a lot of mileage out of trusting in their own deep perfection - I've done enough of that to experience how it works. I've also gotten a lot of mileage out of being comfortable with and honest about my imperfection, and that extends to my God or higher self. For me, both sides of this seem to be essential.

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You said this very well, and I see where you are coming from. I have suffered for a while on the ideology that underneath I am perfect and when I encounter imperfection wave it off, ignore it and repress whatever emotions associated with it. But I have also realised that good and bad are just the products of our mind, and that we don't really have a right to label anything as good or bad. So much of our evaluations in life are based on categorising things as one or the other, and when you get caught in that ridiculous cycle of repressing 'bad' emotions clinging on to 'good' emotions and feeling guilty when you are eventually are 'sad' or 'lonely' which leads to self-loathing and a further attempt in blind madness to once again experience the good.

I am coming more into an understanding that the 'bad' isn't necessarily 'bad' and it is just our minds which categorise things as either in a sort of defence mechanism to ensure one's illusory sanity. I have had encounters with demons in waking life and I can say that the experience was a positive one. I do feel that God is all loving and will never hurt or mislead, but I am not implying that God and Satan are separate or that light and dark is what our reality is about and which side do you choose? It's more like... all paths lead home. They both serve their purpose, to chase God alone and not understand one's own darkness is madness, to understand one's darkness but not seek out what God is about, is also madness. I guess you could think of it like, "God is so perfect that he made every situation an opportunity to become more perfect".

About 'Divine Infallibility', like I said above I believe underneath we are perfect representations of the universe and it's array of energies, but here on earth it's quite clear that we are all caked with layers and layers of many faults. The acknowledgement of these faults and their subsequent removal, release brings you that much closer to that which you are. One by one, peeling back the layers will reveal more of the love. It requires then a certain 'knowledge of self' that I am only now truly beginning to understand, for a long time I struggled and wondered why I wasn't bathed in love 100% of the time but things are becoming clearer now, that I need to understand every aspect of myself and to release anything causing me pain and to understand my demons and shine light onto them. It seems to me that it's not going to be an easy task, but the rewards after having done this, immense. Inner peace, is probably what this resembles, the unity of both sides of the ying and yang into oneness that I understand as being pure love. There is no situation that love cannot heal, that love cannot bring forth the best possible solution. Everything is nothing. Love is not a fluffy feeling that only seeks to pat your back and say 'It's ok' it is the understanding and the raw experience of the so called darkness that allows for one to say 'I KNOW'. I hope what I'm conveying isn't incomprehensible but I have had inklings into this line of thinking in great epiphanies in the past, and I feel that there is a truth so immense in this that it blows everything else out of the water.

Shadowofwind and MrMarley

Thanx!

I slept and drempt well last night. It dosent suprise me that I should wake and find great depth on DreamViews. It is 8:33 am Tuesday 14-Feb-2012 here now.

Had nice smooth dreams but the one I liked best was... I saw a notice inviting folk to a meet of some sort. I went to the place willing to wait, even sleep in the wet, (with rain or dew) grass til other folk turned up.

When thy did they were humans but unusual looking.

Like beautiful hand-carved living wooden statues. Every move was extremely beautiful and perfectly poised. But totally natural, as in, they had been highly routinized and highly self-disciplined monks and nuns for a single life of thousands of years with thousands of happy years of highly routinized and highly self-disciplined life yet to live.

Their prayers and meditations were non verbal it was all gentle movement and body language and facial expression.

Together we went places.

Gently teleporting, smoothly, imperceptiblty. We were just there quickly and quietly.

At the last place, before I woke, I stood beside this cool silent monk in a.forrest on the side of hills. I was aware of standing beside him as I desired to also be a yellow orb.

Then I was a yellow orb of gentle energy.

I wanted to, (metaphorically) die.

So, as an orb, I Rose a mile or two, slowely, into the air, with reverent gratitude. Then Gently and greatfully descended untill I touched the juicy topsoil of this sacred place and merged, formlessly. Then I wanted to keep descending to the dark. molten and hard core of this divine planet but the quiet monk silently seemed to encourage me to consider remaining in the organic and alive, juicy, life-giving topsoil.

Then I gently woke up.

Then I found this lovely thread here on DreamViews.

debrajane, Perhaps you would agree to copy and paste this dream into my thread on 'Other Worldly Enties'? The thread is not neccesarily for thing you know to be Other Wordly, but just a place for people to read about dreams that makes you wonder.
Shadowof wind, I will write a response with some detail on my thoughts regarding both diet/ spirituality and sex/spiritual complication, but I am tied up until late Tuesday evening. Check back after that. Your thoughts deserve me to re-read them and put real contimplation into what I say.
MrMarley, I have a big crush on God. I like what you write about the feeling of love. Awareness of the Divine Presence is so beautiful that it can be all consumming, and perhaps feel like a let down, any time it is less clear. Of all spiritual paths, I feel developing a true love for God is the most fufilling. Maybe on late Tuesday, I may have comments or reflections on some of your posts too.
You are all 3 very thought provoking, thank you for that.

Mr Marley,

Thanks again for your thoughts, I understand and agree with what you're saying. To illustrate a couple of relevant points....A day or two ago the web site reddit censored some threads where people were sharing tips on how to seduce and have sex with pre-teen minors, such as by plying them with alcohol. Last night people were arguing this over at slashdot, a tech site that I read, and as usual when this kind of behavior comes up as a topic, a significant portion of the people posting were sympathetic to it. I usually try to stay out of such discussions, but I posted a note to one guy that I agreed with, and someone from the radical anti-censorship crowd took issue with it. His argument was that there's nothing fundamentally different between children and adults, and that people's views about whether adults having sex with children is 'wrong' are entirely subjective. It seemed to me that he was being almost not at all sincere in his argument, that each time I responded with reasons that I think that child molestation is objectively damaging to children, he'd ignore what I said and flip to a different attack. My reaction to his attitude towards other people, specifically people he can prey upon, is anger. Before going to sleep, I asked heaven, so to speak, if my reaction was right. I don't remember the response, except that the gist of it is no, my anger was not right. If I look at it in the right way, my rage reminds me of a Mel Gibson movie, where something terrible happens so that he becomes righteously outraged and goes on a murderous rampage. As a plot device, the whole purpose of the terrible event is to justify the subsequent violence, which he is in some sense addicted to. I think that life is a lot like this, that karma is like this.

So everything I just said supports what you're saying. But at the same time, raping children is an example of something that really is "bad", its not just a subjective judgment or a fear-based thought construct. Its bad for the victims, and bad for the people who do it. Its good in the sense that it brings our badness to the surface where we have a chance to see it for what it is an overcome it. But that's a silver lining that depends on the wrongness of the behavior and the thinking that leads to it. Its better, in an absolute sense, not to not indulge whatever kind of thinking is at the root of it. Though many of the guys over at slashdot are above limited human judgments of right and wrong, but I don't think that's a good thing. So I think we do well to keep this in mind also.

As illustrated by my 'blue light' anecdote earlier, I often find the experience of guilt to be beneficial. I don't mean guilt as in beating up on myself emotionally, so that I feel like I can approach God sufficiently punished. I just mean being emotionally aware of the whole, true nature of desire, right and wrong. Without that awareness, I can't hope to change. At the same time, I also need the awareness of that deeper perfection, to show me the truth, and to give me the confidence not to shrink away in shame.

Anyway, that seems to be mostly compatible with what you said. I'm just describing a few more of my thoughts from the last day or two, since this perfection/imperfection dichotomy is something I've been working on understanding better. I appreciate your sharing in that regard.

Shadowofwind, I have a few thoughts to share. I was a Vegan for awhile and a vegitarian for much longer. Then my hair started to fall out. I now eat meat. I was reading one of the more famous books on physical yoga. The guy wrote that some people may think vegitarianism is wrong, when theu observe the obvious health and vigor of the meat eaters, but..... That did it for me. I think that while there is a small karmic price to pay for eating meat, we are animals. We are often much more than animals, but in the rawest sense we are these physical bodies. There is a good feeling one gets being a vegitarian, but I have left that behind in exchange for good health.
The whole concept you have talked about, involving self-judgement, and feeling bad when you have less than ideal feelings or reactions to events, is something every person has to deal with. There is the version we feel would be most spiritual, and then the version that is our true reaction. remember what I said about chakra being a way of looking at yourself in parts, then seeing how those parts combine to form the complete picture. Examine yourself as the body, and as the drive that is part of life. I must cut myself a little slack, because while I feel vegitarianism is right, my animal body seems to prosper as an omnivore. The same idea is part of the sexual question. We know as spiritual beings what is nasty and vulgar, but as men we have wild thoughts or dreams that shock us and make us doubt our self image as good people. That again comes to the 1st and 2nd chaka issue. We have teestosterone and inhabit the bodies of homosapiens. When a entity is the sum of its parts, it is self destructive to loathe parts that can not be changed. We can tame ourselves some, so that we are highly domesticated humans, but we are still human. It is my understanding that even the most highly spiritual men in history have still had sex drive, bad thoughts, and disturbances caused by the fact that the body is what it is. No real point here, other than we all must face these issues, and no matter how noble the soul, a man will have bad thoughts, anger, and a randy side. It is something to come to terms with, not seek to destroy.
As far as feeling anger towards those child molesters. In an ideal setting, a good man can still protectt others and act on thier sense of good vs evil. I feel that a passifist who would sit by and allow such athing when it could be prevented, has lost sight of a good path, and his convictions make him an acomplase true weakness. Should we feel anger? I want all evoled men to be deefenders of the weak, not reclusive monks who feel nothing. It is again something to tame, not ignore or hate. Anger can be a valuable part of those who need to defend people. We can also understand that all things come from God, and are subjective, yet still strike down and be angry at monsters.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I think there's a higher karmic penalty for meat eating than most people realize, particularly factory farm meat. But I agree with your conclusion. Veganism with cheese and occasional shellfish (I don't eat eggs) seems to work well for me long term - I think my health and athletic strength is very high for my age. But I agree you have to put health first, and nuts and tofu don't work for everyone.

I think that anger is an expression of something that is important, but it still needs to be transformed into a truer expression as that becomes possible. Similarly with lust. For me, it's not just that these passions violate an abstract ideal, I can see that they're practical barriers in relation to things I'm responsible for. So although there's no quick fix, I still have to grapple with it if I want to make progress at all.