Tips for Manifestation

1. Feel happy for no reason. Do not require positive circumstances to create your happiness. Allow your happiness to create positive circumstances. You don't need a reason to feel good.

2. Live simply. The intensity of the feeling is more valuable than the intensity of the details. To think of happiness like intoxication, the drunk of the non-drinker who had 5 beers is worth more than the slight buzz of the alcoholic who had 10. Keep your tolerance low and mild results can generate greater feeling. If the details of your life cannot compare to others, your feelings certainly can.

3. Invest in your happiness. Exercise, eat well, go on walks, do yoga, jump on trampolines, remind yourself what you have to be grateful for each morning. Create habits that provide lasting good feelings so you don't have to consciously shift a flat feeling into a good one but naturally feel good all the time.

4. Explore your feelings without justifying them. Like I said in 1, whatever the reason may be that you are feeling a certain emotion, it's not your job to figure it out. Explore the emotion itself, not the thoughts you come up with to rationalize it. Allow the feeling to stand apart from its labels. Monitor your emotional state closely and consistently. Do not fear bad feelings, do not chase good feelings. Observe them.

5. Remember the basics. Focus on the basics. Create a strong foundation. Surround yourself with good influences, teachers, books and lessons that show you how to get what you want. In five years your income will be the average of your five best friends. But income isn't everything, what kind of lifestyles do they lead? You will also live the average life of your five best friends. Whenever possible, surround yourself with influences that have what you want. Make sure to remain teachable, which means you've never learned something enough, you're always excited to learn it again and learn more about it. Don't think you've grasped anything. Only that you're grasping it. The moment you think you're teachable enough, you've lost your teachability. Always strive to learn how to be more teachable. Always keep up the basics. Perfect Practice Makes Perfect. Find the right practices and repeat them. Find good books and lessons and repeat them. Leaders are always readers.

6. The Cardinal rule of Manifestation: If your attitude's right, the facts don't matter. No matter how impossible a desire may appear, if you have the attitude that you can get it--or yet better, the attitude that you've basically got it already, life just needs to sort out a couple details first--then you can have it. Our view on reality is very narrow. We see a tiny, tiny fraction of everything going on around us. We aren't smart enough to know what's possible and what isn't. You don't have control over that type of knowledge so don't pretend to. All you control is your own attitude. Adjust your attitude first as if you're living the life you want to live. Many of the details will remain the same anyway, right? You'll still take showers, do laundry, take care of your kids, etc. The difference is not the details but the way you imagine they'll make you feel. So feel as if you've found the right details already.

7. General Desires are better than Specific Ones. Why do you want, for example, a new car? Why do you want a new partner, a new job, more money, better health? Because you believe it will make you feel better. So what do you really want? To feel better. There are different ways to feel better, such as feeling secure and protected, or feeling content and satisfied, or feeling just plain grateful to be alive. For these types of happiness, honing in on the specific feeling you desire most or believe is most lacking from your life can be helpful. I'll give you a hint though, the feeling you could probably use the most of is gratitude. You aren't smart enough to know what in life will deliver the most gratitude. Getting caught up in specific details can inhibit the world's ability to manifest the best possible results. You may meet someone you like and get the sensation, "I want them!" But you don't know them, what you want is that good feeling the interest sparked inside of you, so focus on that feeling.

8. Feel better one step at a time. So now that you know the most important part about living the life you want to live is having the right attitude, should you automatically shift your attitude exactly to that? Sure, but you've got to go up the elevator one step at a time. Anger can feel a little bit better than debilitating depression. Impartially observing an uncomfortable emotion can feel better than ignoring it. Through observing our emotions, we allow them to change. When we run from them, we often inhibit their change. Focus on feeling just a little bit better, a little bit of relief, a little bit of absolution, a little bit of contentedness, a little bit of gratitude. You can try to instantly feel as amazing as you dream possible, but you may find you can't sustain it and still have the laundry waiting for you of working through the less easy emotions.

9. Don't set a timer. Let it come when it chooses to come. When you broadcast a good feeling, the universe automatically works to reciprocate it. However, just because all the events are starting to fall into the right place, that doesn't mean it will happen exactly when you say. You remember the scene from Benjamin Button when all those little details had to happen in precisely the right way to make sure the dancer was hit by the car? If one person hadn't dropped something, and another hadn't answered their phone, then none of it would have happened? Manifestation works like that. Your broadcast will immediately adjust the timing of all these little situations throughout the universe, but it still takes time for the manifestation to emerge from these little details.

10. You're broadcasting all the time, anyways, so manifestation is already working. Monitor your feelings closely, especially after incidents occur. Three people could get in a car accident, and one will be scared, the other will be frustrated, and the last will think it was just his luck. The car accident itself was only a vehicle to deliver the emotion you are manifesting, and the same incident can cause a wide variety of emotions. Monitor exactly how something made you feel, and then ask yourself if you were dealing with that feeling in any other facet. Perhaps you stub your toe, and you think, "I didn't do shit to manifest this!" Think again, how did it make you feel? You'll find there probably is something, maybe your father is sick and you're getting frustrated dealing with the insurance company. Maybe your kid isn't living up to your expectations. These manifestations, despite being negative, can actually be very positive because they can reveal negative feelings we aren't addressing. It's also worth mentioning that when you are broadcasting positive feelings, there's a possibility that you may hit a minor obstacle to divert you from a worse experience. If you're feeling intensely grateful most of the time and your flight gets canceled, this may have been a way to protect you from a plane crash, for example.

11.Your tools are Consistency and Intensity. You'll get whatever you really, really, really, really, really want. You'll also get whatever you really, really, really, really, really don't want. You'll get whatever you think about most of the time, most of the time. You'll get whatever you think about some of the time, some of the time. Consistency and Intensity. Feel it strong enough, and often enough, and it will come faster and truer.

This is an open thread for people to post tips they know of for manifestation/law of attraction

Here's a couple more:

Pay close attention to happy people. You don't need to know their secret, just pay attention to them. You become like the examples you surround yourself with most, so surround yourself with examples that have what you want. The most learning happens through observing, because that teacher never stops lecturing us. Our neural patterns are constantly being reinforced or challenged by what we observe.

If you can consistently put yourself in a good mood, eventually it becomes automatic and you don't even have to try. But you do you have to try at first, and put in consistent effort to life your spirits and get excited about the world. Before you can be unconsciously competent at something you must be consciously competent.

Think about what kind of circumstances would create certain emotions and use those emotions as tools to create those circumstances. For example if you want life to satisfy you beyond your expectations then gratitude can deliver that because it will start to generate experiences that make you grateful. If you want to be satisfied because you have everything you want, shift your mindset to where it would be if you already had it. Why waste time waiting for the thing you need to make you happy? You know how happy it would make you, so just be that happy.

Step one from your first post is the most important step of all. I think everyone needs help with that one. If you really consider the reality of all of this, then there is no reason to doubt yourself. And if you have no reason to doubt your ownself, then you lose any reason to hold onto anything holding you back. So believing in yourself and happiness go hand in hand.

And if anyone here is looking for a supportive community, try this website
The 100 Day Reality Challenge

Hey Omnis Dei,

I have some criticisms of this manifestation approach, not because I don't believe it has that kind of power, but because I think there are undesirable side effects that aren't always obvious when it is viewed in this manner. If you want to argue about this a bit I'm up for that. Otherwise, my inclination is to let it go.

>.>

I don't want to argue but I'm curious what you think a side effect could be because I have no idea.

I seems about 65% good advice to me. However, it reminds me a scene I was in about four years ago, with a coworker who was always smiling. He did his algorithm development for embedded C applications in PLT Scheme, which is an obscure dialect of lisp. This would be sort of like making all of your posts to DreamViews in Calapoolia instead of English, with the main difference being that other people's jobs don't depend on DreamViews posts. I suggested to him, politely and cheerfully, that he should work in something that's compatible with the target language, and that other people can understand. This made him so upset that he was physically shaking. But at the same time he was still smiling! He got commendations from management for his work, because nobody else in the group could get anything done, because their work all depended on information that he had control over and wouldn't share. The product never actually worked, but they pretended it worked, and conned another company into buying them out for a large profit. The smiley guy manifested the reality he wanted, while the honest, actually cooperative people got screwed and lost their jobs.

I could give you at least 50 more stories like this one. To be honest and treat people the way they deserve to be treated requires a motive to do that. If you have any other motive, such as to manifest success, you blind yourself and hurt other people without recognizing it. That's where the success comes from, if that's how you approach it. So yes that magic really does work, but it turns you into the smiley guy. It turns you into someone who sees "friends" in terms of how much money they earn and whether they have the lifestyles that you want, instead of as fellow human beings. Of course you shouldn't hang with people who abuse you, or who share no common ground for a relationship. But people need other people even when they're unhappy, even when they're unemployed and facing homelessness. You think you'll stand with them even while you're manifesting success, that you can do both. But eventually you turn away, and find other successful, outwardly happy, parasitic people to hang with, and other weaker or more naive people to take advantage of. Ultimately this pattern brings more conflict into your life, rather than less, because more and more the 'friendly' people in your life are passive aggressives who are trying to use you, just as you would use them. And when more up-front, honest people try to communicate what they see, you feel attacked. Not because they're actually attacking you, but because you're programmed yourself to resist anything that threatens what you want.

That's how I've seen this play out anyway. Like I said, I think a lot of what you listed is good advice, but it goes in a bad direction if its not freed of that other, what-I-want-is-what-I-deserve, facts-don't-matter element.

Im not omnis but I can say there is a lot about your post that really disturbs me

For the LOA to work positively in your life you have to let go of attachment to that which you are trying to manifest. This is completely different than the corporate world you've just described where the end result is everything.

You should understand that omnis spoke about an inner happiness free from anything happening outside of yourself. If a person needs to be a snake and take advantage of a weaker individual for financial success - they dont know inner happiness.

In the LOA there are no exceptions, you are always manifesting your own reality. The point of this thread is to help you manifest the life you dream of. And that first requires you to feel happy for no reason at all. Once you are in this open happiness then you can dream of the life you want without fear. There maybe a few psychos out there -- by large most people don't dream with all their heart to ruin another life. This means when the average person is honest with their self on what they actually desire most in life, their most selfish desire is completely compatible with the rest of the world. In LOA this has been called aligning yourself.

When you align yourself, your dream isnt just good for you, its good for everyone. (for complicated reasons im too lazy to explain in full)

Sure, the LOA still means people will get dumped and others might lose their job. And if you're the one that made this happen, you're not at fault. You didn't ruin anyones life. This is an opportunity for them to do some real soul-searching and start living life they way they dream it. No one is a victim in the LOA. Everyone is empowered.

Bad things are never bad things in the LOA. These bad experiences are our teachers that reveal to us what our heart actually desires and the consequences for ignoring it.

Happy people with strong auras can have that effect on others.. Just by walking in the room they can make you realize you've been living life as an idiot. Its why people suffering depression are annoyed by happy people, because they can't stand to face their great lesson - that they are in charge of their happiness.

Which brings me to why I find your post slightly disturbing. You've suggested that happy people are parasitic-just-"smiling" people who only care about success regardless of who they burn along the way.

And then you placed honest people in a whole separate category as happy people.

.......Why cant the honest person be the happy person? How can you ever be happy if you believe being happy means you have to be shallow?

I never said that honest people can't be happy. Note that I also said that more than half of what Omnis Dei said seems to me like a good idea. Specifically, one of the things that I think is a good idea is using whatever free will you have to be happy, irrespective of circumstances. There was a lot in Omnis Dei's post besides that though.

Here's another analogy. When you're with a date, do you listen to them and share your thoughts like they are another human being, or do you think about what buttons you can push to get what you want?

Providence is also like this. If you're thinking about how to manifest what you want, you're thinking about pushing buttons, and you've already lost the habit of honesty. "You have to let go of attachment to that which you are trying to manifest." If you're trying to manifest it, you're attached. If you pretend you're not attached even though you're trying to manifest it, you're playing tricks with yourself. This is like in Tao Te Ching when the natural way is lost.

I would like to throw in three goodies into this thread. The first one is a free e-book on how to get the astonishing power of gratitiude to work for you. Second is an awesome LOA course. And thirdly a video on using EFT to start your day off the correct way and works well for me.

1) Here is the free astonishing power of gratitude ebook link

2) There is a guy called Rishan, who has mastered the Law of Attraction, who walks the walk and reveals how you can do the same. I have purchased his course and it is an excellent comprehensive course. You can investigate it here at this link

3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoSzivsQkVI

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Here's another analogy. When you're with a date, do you listen to them and share your thoughts like they are another human being, or do you think about what buttons you can push to get what you want?

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I dont know what youre talking about! But I dont date so that whole world just goes over my head.

[/quote]Providence is also like this. If you're thinking about how to manifest what you want, you're thinking about pushing buttons, and you've already lost the habit of honesty.[/quote]

Becuase youre not supposed to think about "how to manifest". You're not supposed to control the process. Omnis did discuss this. The steps simplified are as follows:

1. be blissfully happy for no reason!
2. dream your reality as you desire
3. let go. How, when, where is not up to you.

The last step is so important. It seems illogical but its not. Its simply a misunderstanding of attachment and desire.

Quote:

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If you're trying to manifest it, you're attached. If you pretend you're not attached even though you're trying to manifest it, you're playing tricks with yourself. This is like in Tao Te Ching when the natural way is lost.

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I shouldn't have used the word attachment because now where getting into buddhist concepts and buddhism got nothing to do with it. Buddhism teaches the human condition is suffering and all suffering is created by attachment and attachment is all humans do, so meditate until you cease being human--or something like that. Thats fine and all if thats what you believe. But thats really a distorted idiot-buddhism that emos who hate life follow.

The LOA is liberating because it teaches youre not a victim by any means. You're not trapped in a condition of suffering. Your life is exactly what you make it as, moment to moment.

The third step, let go, means you can't have an attachment to that which you desire. Maybe thats illogical to buddhists. But thats not illogical in other spiritual faiths, such as the hindu faith. Here is a much healthier way to view it. You're here for a divine reason - to experience being human.

Now that the human experience is also a divine experience, this means its your divine right to experience what it means to be human - experiences like marriage. The hindus celebrate every marriage as divine union - your divine right to experience. But buddhist practioners who only think with the left brain are left stuck asking "is that attachment?"

Attachment is simply your reaction to outer experiences. It has nothing to do with what you can or cannot experience. In otherwords youre free to experience whatever the hell you want!

The easiest and simplest way to make sure a desire isn't a attachment is to follow step one: be happy for no reason.

All these situations that youre describing is ignoring step one. Scores of books warn again and again to never manifest out of feelings of lack - thats also the same as attachment. In otherwords, I still dont see an argument against whats been laid out in this thread, I only see examples of what happens when you dont follow it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by juroara

1. be blissfully happy for no reason!
2. dream your reality as you desire
3. let go. How, when, where is not up to you.

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I think this boils it down nicely. I agree step one is good, provided of course that it doesn't require lying to yourself about your emotions. You can sponteneously generate joy, but any sadness that you have needs to be heard and healed with that joy, not denied. Its like if you're walking around with a thorn stuck in your foot - the pain is there to tell you something. If you just ignore it you'll get an infection.

Step three gives providence more flexibility to meet your desires. Sometimes you need to make definite choices of course, take definite steps towards making good things happen. But if you're not trying to micro-manage fate, pushing against every obstacle in stead of working in harmony with the flow of events, it tends to work a lot better. And of course the harmony involves a degree of trust and letting providence do its thing.

I think where people get into the most trouble is in step two. We share a reality with other people, and the reality we dream for ourselves can adversely affect other people's realities. Ideologically, some people believe this can never be the case, but believing that requires closing one's eyes to the whole story that is going on with other people. And this goes along with step one, a lot of times when people are unhappy with you, they're trying to tell you that something you're doing is hurting them. Of course they could be wrong, or might have unreasonable expectations, but the only way to know is to listen to what they're saying and consider it. If you believe a priori that nothing that you do can hurt other people if you are cheerful and dreaming about the reality you want, then you're not hearing them. You don't have to let other people make you unhappy, but you have to be willing to feel their pain at least enough to understand their situation, expecially when doing that casts doubt on your dream of reality. Its an essential part of empathy. People who believe in cheerfulness as a doctrine are generally friendly and empathetic, but its a weird kind of empathy, where they offer a sentiment of compassion but won't actually take a sober look at what's going on and make adjustments to their behavior. Their behavior is driven by step 2, their narcissistic dream that doesn't want to see reality. Even where that dream involves other people, step two advocates blindly imposing a pattern on reality rather than being conscious of and working with it. Step 3 helps by making the pattern more general and flexible, but it doesn't fix the problem if the dream itself is in oblivious defiance of circumstances. The process works if its a conscious dance, but not if its a relentlessly optimistic 3 step programme.

[Ammendment: Though I've focused on the issue of treating other people right, oblivious cheerfulness as a philosophy will also enable people to take advantage of you. They'll be friendly and cheerful and offer you some deal that seems positive and rewarding. It falls right into what feels like your ideal dream, and you accept. But the reality is usually different, and its not right to allow people to steal from you, its not good for you or for them. "Positive thinking' advocates tend to fall victim to pyramid marketing and other exploitive schemes, because their 'all positive' mindset greatly weakens their natural ability to recognize such situations for what they are.]

The problem, Juroara, is that it's very easy to follow incorrectly. And Shadowofwind made some valid points, actually. It's important to keep in mind not only what people can do with these seeds if they handle them correctly, but also the ways people can handle them incorrectly.

Frankly my first introduction to LOA--which I believe is accurate, as I believe The Secret has removed a lot of essential instructions and that's why it earned itself such a cynical reputation--was intended to help people make money, and was not concerned with the greater effect on society. The instructor's philosophy was similar to yours Joroara, he believed that if everyone was pursuing their own personal happiness they would be exempt from parasitic or opportunistic motives because those are lower ideals and do not return the same kind of happiness as communally driven motives.

But not everyone is so evolved. It's much more rare for a person to truly master LOA if they're still stuck in those lower thoughts, but it can happen. Most of the time, though, it's exactly like you say. In order to surmount doubt, you have to let go of personal investment to such an extreme it's like real Buddhism (not the buddhism you described). You have to realize that the piece of yourself that you tap into in order to feel so good right now is a piece of yourself not invested in the outcome. When you find this space, it changes your perspective on yourself and the world. It changes your priorities, and you realize the happiest you can make yourself is in a state of giving. But it's still true that people can occasionally bypass this realization when they first hear about LOA. It's a very rare occurrence but still needs to be taken into account.

However they'll learn their lessons, all the same. When you're on your death bed and forced to wonder if you lived a good life, you'll realize the gains and losses you thought were so important are not. You'll realize that your ups and downs don't seem so different now, they were just different heights in a roller coaster. What matters is who you loved, how much you loved them, and how freely you gave it. And yes, I understand this information can be misused. But it's already being misused. All sorts of secret societies like the Freemasons and the Brotherhood teach this secret, and all sorts of people are causing for themselves happiness at the expense of the world, without enough spiritual understanding to know what tremendous damage they are doing to themselves. I think it's better to let the secret spread so it can reach all the people that would use it correctly than to allow those that do know it continue to use it for such nefarious reasons.

Omnis Dei,

I think that most people are already using something very much like 'the secret', minus some of the awareness of the power of desire. I'd go so far as to say that its pervasive, and that the 'negative' patterns we see are in the world are symptomatic of how it breaks down. I think that for the most part its the 'misuse' of the power that has brought about the loss of awareness of it, not the other way around. To some extent I'm speaking historically - in various forms these ideas have been around and known by a lot of people for a very long time. Also to some extent I'm speaking of an unknown spiritual history that made our history what it is. Imagine for illustration that the reason we can't levitate and control elementals is because Atlanteans and Lemurians abused their 'mental science' knowledge. I don't think that's quite true, I don't think that Atlantis and Lemuria are literally in the history of our world. But I feel there are other places like that somewhere, and they are tied to our world having been created with the laws and thought patterns that it has.

In any case, if you're willing to be up front about the various qualifications and potential pitfalls of Law of Attraction, then I agree its positive to tell people about it. I agree that the secret society mindset is unhealthy.

[One other comment: The ideological mindset that decides what should be without also looking to see what is, strongly undermines one's ability to learn from experience. A person who thinks that way is unlikely to learn from their life when on their death bed. In order to 'try it and see what it does', the philosophy needs to make room for honest perception, not trumping perception with the positive thinking agenda. That is my most essential point.]

Though the posts here are thoughtful, interesting, and even enlightening, I'm having a whole lot of trouble with the thread's basic premise. Let me paraphrase it just to clarify my understanding of the OP:

Be positive, be happy, and anything you want will magically find its way to you -- as long as you don't actually "want" it. Is that close enough? Does it sound as absurd to you as it does to me when read that way? It should.

Now I hope you'll bear with me a moment while I explain:

Yes, Omnis, the lifestyle you outline, with Shadowofwind's caveats in place, is a good one, and would be most rewarding on a personal basis -- but those rewards are no more or less than what's available to you regardless of the exercise of your desires. Yes, if you live happily -- in a truly honest and harmless way -- you'll likely be happy; you'll even find the folks around you are happier too. But you won't suddenly manifest the root of your desires (and trust me, some of our desires would be most impressive and dangerous if ever manifest) -- you'll simply improve the ambiance of your life. You're likely already spooling up your objections and explanations, but when you do, could you include in them a note about how, exactly, this manifestation works, and what force suddenly senses your happy smile and chooses to fulfill your dreamy desires?

Seriously. I'm not being skeptical, here. This concept -- put essentially nothing into a pot, wait a while, and that pot will be full to the brim with whatever you desired -- simply does not make sense when viewed from any actual condition of human experience. I'd love to see it be real -- and God knows I've spent years trying to make it so, with my only reward being that I remembered during all that time to work hard, be good to people, and pay actual dues in life (from which I've benefited well enough, I suppose) -- but no matter how tightly I squint, or how broadly I smile, the world continues to spin as blindly as ever, heedless of my desires.

So if you can explain to me how this works, in a way that transcends cop-outs like "If you don't know then you can't know," I'd most appreciate it. Also, before you guys get all condescending on my ass, keep in mind while you're responding that I've been practicing this stuff for longer than I'll bet most of you have been alive. Among much else, I've read the Masonic Handbook (even witnessed rituals), the Golden Dawn, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, Blavatsky's Secret Doctrine, The Secret, even Seth Speaks, Peale's The power of Positive Thinking, and everything Richard Bach ever wrote; everything you discuss above is covered by those works in some form or another, so this is nothing new to me literally. All this reading doesn't even include the uncounted hours I've spent in the dream world exploring to some fairly amazing depths the concepts of manifestation they, and you, describe. As I said above, I have also been testing the claims of the treatises for many years (in and out of dreams) and, though living the OP's lifestyle can make things more pleasant, the only way I have ever found desires to be manifest, whether I'm thinking about them or not, is by putting real work, energy, sacrifice, and discipline into their "manifestation." Noting else has ever worked. There is no free lunch. If there is, I haven't found it ... and God knows I've looked! ... tell me, if you can, where I went wrong.

One quick BTW, if you're still reading: Groups like the Freemasons, Rosecrucians, theosophists, romantics, etc, tended to be founded by fairly rich and powerful people who already had the means to get whatever they want. They also, because of their wealth and power, had enough time on their hands to invent their happy little cults to codify, and perhaps justify, the good fortune they already experienced. In other words, the progenitors of all this stuff already had their "good life" manifest, no doubt by hard work, inheritance, misdeeds, or whatever, but likely not through some mystical happiness payback. Their mystical magical "work" was more an excuse for rare good fortune in a very sad world than path for everyman.

You also seem to have completely misrepresented the Buddhist (real or not, whatever that means) view of things: They have no plan to "manifest" anything. In their quest for awareness, enlightenment, and a way off the Wheel after death they might share some of the steps you list (as do most religions), but they are by no means looking to fulfill their personal worldly desires, be they dreamt, imagined, or well thought out. The best in their business lived in caves, for God's sake! Cut the guys some slack. The only other true similarity here is that many Buddhist sects -- particular of the Zen variety -- are phenomenally narcissistic by any measure.

So be happy; spread those grins, find joy in nothing. All that will certainly make your life better, as long as you heed Shadowofwind's warnings. And yes, you will make other people happy because that's what being nice to people does -- nothing special there either. And, of course, if we all behaved this way, the world would indeed be a better place, but as a result of our own plain-old-up-front-mundane-human actions. There is nothing metaphysical in a well-heeled smile.

I have to say, while ideological pontification is prevalent among Buddhist commoners, the way you broke down the philosophy strikes me as incomplete. And I'm not trying to say that you're not well read in esoteric philosophy, but you have to understand what teachability means. It seems you're approaching this subject from a standpoint that you understand whatever there is to be taught to you. It was already taught to you. Teachability does not end. You cannot grasp information completely. The moment you think you can, you are no longer teachable. Sometimes information can appear redundant, and it's our judgment on information that stops us from grasping a lot of powerful concepts.

I did not state that buddhism was about manifestation. When I related LOA to Buddhism I stated that the part of you capable of feeling happy in a doubt free way is not the same part of you invested in your desires.

To put it simply, I believe one possible way to translate enlightenment is the realization that something in you is completely and unconditionally fine. It is through this unconditional acceptance that you find a path to bliss. And when you tap into this bliss, life starts to work in any possible way it can to justify that bliss.

Most of us have a list of things we need in order to be able to fully accept the moment and blissfully soak in the Now. The basic philosophy I am communicating is to set your attitude there now, rather than wait for the list to be complete. The list cannot be filled, anything you check off leads to something else. If you truly believe you need to complete your list of desires in order to be happy, you are looking at an endless list. But that doesn't mean you can't find happiness, just because you can't fill the list.

And here is where the biggest misconception about Buddhism occurs. People take it ascetically, thinking they need to remove all attachments and just wade through the lack until they're numb to it. What I say is let the unknown be unknown. You don't need to break the glass just because its next stage in life is broken glass. You don't know when it will happen, only that it will happen. That is the core of impermanence. You realize no thing will make you happy, and you cannot complete your list. This is where manifestation comes into play. Just because you don't know whether or not you'll find the love of your life and a million dollars and a nobel prize, why live in the lack of those things? It makes no more sense to pretend you don't have something just because you don't have it now than to pretend your glass will never break just because it isn't broken now.

I think I understand more what you guys are saying - everyone is using the LOA unconsciously 24/7 - so selfish people can use it for selfish reasons as they already do

But I think the average person using the LOA consciously needs to worry about the dark night of the soul even more. My favorite author described the dark night of the soul as a hook n bait process. He described it like this:

You use the LOA and you say to the universe "Im ready to live without fear because now I know I co-create every moment!". The Universe listens, 'you're ready to live life without fear? Prove it. Face them.' So you use the LOA to live your dreams, all the while you have NO IDEA that the Universe is about to challenge you. Something will happen in your life thats gonna present two options. Life your life without fear, without knowing what tomorrow brings. Or take the safer predictable option, because you aint really ready to accept the truth.

Faced with your fear, most people take the safer option. At first theyre happy. And then, there are signs. Something went wrong. They ignore the signs. And then your happy little world falls apart even though you had used the LOA. Your confused and lost, I used the LOA so why is my life so messed up?

It happened to me the first time I used the LOA! Yay. But I didn't realize it until three years later when I learned about the dark night of the soul.

When I was first introduced to the LOA I became so inspired, I told myself I can make my living as artist and quit my job where I shovel dog shit (literally). Shortly after I used the LOA I had clients ligned up for mural paintings!!

I finally found the courage. And I quit my kennel job to be a full time artist! When I left that kennel, I was panicking! What am I thinking quitting my job? Ive got bills to pay! I need a stable income! OMG

The day I quit my job I went to the art supply store to stock up for the murals paintings I was gonna make. The owner saw that I looked glum, I told him I just quit my job and now Im having second thoughts. He tells me "Ill hire you!". All I had to do was show up.

I thought it was a miracle....It felt like destiny.....lol....It was the hook n bait of the dark night of the soul. Be a full time artist and live without fear. Or work here.

Three days later I was working at the art supply store. The pay was crap. And I remember thinking "why did the universe give me a min. wage job?". I told myself this was a temporary thing, temporary. I'm gonna be a full time artist! Ive got murals to make.

Within a month my mural clients fell through one by one - which I had feared. I was so lost and confused. I was at the min. wage job for three years. The whole time I met people like me, artists, muscicians, writers, all who lacked the courage to live their dream. Three years later that I learned the dark night of the soul is the flipside for initiatng conscious manifestation. What a rude awakening.

And all those people who just watched The Secret have NO IDEA that this is a spiritual process. You're gonna tell the universe you're ready to live without fear, well I hope you know what you just initiated!!

Anyways, thats kinda how I feel about this problem of people using the LOA and causing harm to others. I ideally and naively assume that there are protections in place to make it hard for the lower egos to abuse and misuse the LOA. The first step requires joy, true joy free from anger and fear. The third step requires letting go, hard for ambitious power hungry people.

Trying to use the LOA when you aren't ready and there are going to be negative consequences - for you! But hey, even the dark night of the soul is a blessing. (so they say)

edit: pfff I was eating while typing....so many new posts

Sageous:

Its true of course that things like houses and phones don't just precipitate out of the aether, someone has to work to make them. And when we naively trust providence to provide for us, or even to provide an opportunity to work to provide for ourselves, we get burned.

In a way it would be nice if the 'thought science' stuff was 100% bullshit. Then we could have closure. Yes we squandered the best part of our lives exploring it, but now we know better. Trouble is, its not 100% bullshit. I'd go so far as to say I objectively 'know' this. There really is something like destiny, and it really is interrelated with desire somehow, even though we have barely the foggiest idea how something like that would work.

I'm still pissed at the people who introduced me to the Theosophical bullshit. It would be different if they were innocently duped, but they intentionally hid stuff that they thought would undermine the credibility of the message. The life choices I made in good faith set my career back at least ten years, and career matters when you have children to support. And yet, something in it is real, so somehow we have to decide what to do with that. Speaking for myself anyway, someone else with different experiences would reasonably arrive at different conclusions.

Juroara:

Thanks for sharing your experiences, those resonate with mine in many ways. I'll respond later, I've got to go to bed and go to work tomorrow.

^^ Agreed on all points, Shadowofwind, including my suspicion/hope that there is something to thought energy -- trouble is, as you noted, it may take years and very much work to get a "return" on what we put into our efforts to tap thought energy (or develop a sort of thought science) ... it does not just come with a smile.

I also understand your experience with the empty promises (aka Bullshit) of the Theosophists; my time wasted with them was almost as bad as the time I wasted lurking about the Magickal Chylde shop in Manhattan, learning about spells and potions meant to change my life!

So if I understand you correctly then, nothing is literally manifest by following the OP's steps? Life just becomes more pleasant, maybe, but good things, people, and opportunities don't start finding their way to you, a la The Secret? I think some folks on this thread might beg to differ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

So if I understand you correctly then, nothing is literally manifest by following the OP's steps? Life just becomes more pleasant, maybe, but good things, people, and opportunities don't start finding their way to you, a la The Secret?

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No, that's not what I mean. Despite all the limitations and qualifications, it still does something that can't be explained in the way you describe, and which requires desire to have some kind of supernatural agency.

I really have no idea how the process of this actually works on a scientific level. Sure ive heard explanations but they all leave questions. For now im calling it a spiritual process until science catches up. I simply know on a personal level that some of the most important events over the past years have happened within two to three weeks of using the LOA.

Really, when its done right, the LOA happens relatively fast. Fast enough for you to see its not a coincidence. I'm not trying to put a time limit but...if you've been struggling with the LOA for months and months, you goofed up on one of the steps.


MORE TIPS

1. Its all about the intensity of your joy and your openness to positive change in your life - right now! In the IOSDP they call it the Law of Explosion. Because you really should feel so happy you could just explode!

2. Most people just feel "blah" all day long. They've forgotten what joy feels like. Meditation and yoga should help to correct this.

3. But if you're depressed meditation and yoga at first won't be enough. Actually if youre seriously depressed you'll find you don't even have the effort to take either seriously! You need to cleanse your toxic energy field.

4. Nothing gives you joy? Cleanse your toxic energy field. There are different ways to do this depending on your beliefs. If you believe in a higher power then pray! Ask the higher power to cleanse your energy field and bind negative entities dragging you down. I know a good cleansing prayer to archangel michael if thats your thing. Otherwise theres plenty of other pagan style cleansing and banishing rituals you can do.

5. The effectiveness of any of these prayers or rituals, is your willingness to accept you've got a problem and your capacity to surrender them. Why hold onto them?

6. If you've followed those steps joy will come easier in your life. Remember that what most people consider happy isnt good enough for the magic were trying to do. We need to feel so much more!

CHANGE

A lot of people are using the LOA to change their life, but they haven't yet accepted they need to change as a person. My friend whos suffering from clinical depression says she wants to be happy. But shes got zero interest in the things happy people do - she sneers at singing and dancing. At some point, living a happy life is impossible if you have this silly idea you CANT do the things happy people do.

A lot of the NO CHANGE people get after using the LOA for months or years is simply the reflection that they haven't changed at all as a person.

Well its not like you have to change...!! But if you're miserable I recommend it......

Dreams Are Our Best Friend
Dreaming and the LOA go hand in hand!!! If you're running into problems with the LOA you can turn to your dreaming for guidance.

1. Can you remember your dreams? If you're struggling to remember your dreams you're pretty stressed out or depressed. Both are counter-productive to the LOA

2. Hows the quality of your dreams? Fuzzy? Super detailed? Fuzzy dreams are a sign of lack of concentration and mental over loads. You don't have the mental focus for the LOA, time for meditation and quieting your mind

3. What are you dreaming about? Are your dreams super fun? Or are you dreaming about all the things you loathe? If you're dreaming about all the things you loathe, then you're holding thoughtforms for all the things you loathe, and you're going to be living all the things you loathe. LOA wins!

4. Your dreams should be fun and they should reinforce your LOA efforts!! Before I finally left that min. wage job, I had a dream I was saying goodbye to all my friends at work. Before I moved out, I had a dream I had just moved into my new apartment.

5. Either way, good or bad, dreams give us a good indication of what we are really manifesting in our lives!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

No, that's not what I mean. Despite all the limitations and qualifications, it still does something that can't be explained in the way you describe, and which requires desire to have some kind of supernatural agency.

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Oh. So you do believe that, aside from obvious things like houses or cars emerging from the aether, you can get something for nothing more than holding an honest smile; that there is a free lunch for the happy few. I hadn't expected that. I guess that brings me back to my question above, which apparently remains essentially unanswered. I'll post it again below, since it seems to have been lost in the dust of the two long posts that followed it.

I also want to add one other question: What about the many many people I know who do go through their entire lives happy -- even blissful -- and yet bad things still happen to them, plus they never receive what they truly desired? Surely this manifest reward isn't only bestowed upon those who know to ask? Wouldn't the Powers that oversee it be even more impressed by those who hold to happiness in the face of everything gone wrong, all the while completely ignorant of this manifestation system? Why aren't they being rewarded? You'd think they deserve it, given that they seem to be following all the rules as dictated in the OP.

Again, I'm being neither facetious, sarcastic, or skeptical here; I've been thinking about and actively working on versions of this subject for a very long time, and I have found that the polar opposite of the OP is likely true ... which implies much hard work, very few fulfilled desires, and even a (limited) potential for evil to work the "system" as well. I would very much like to be shown why I'm wrong, and not just told, again, that I'm wrong (or just be ignored again, which really sucks).

Here's my post from above:

Quote:

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Though the posts here are thoughtful, interesting, and even enlightening, I'm having a whole lot of trouble with the thread's basic premise. Let me paraphrase it just to clarify my understanding of the OP:

Be positive, be happy, and anything you want will magically find its way to you -- as long as you don't actually "want" it. Is that close enough? Does it sound as absurd to you as it does to me when read that way? It should.

Now I hope you'll bear with me a moment while I explain:

Yes, Omnis, the lifestyle you outline, with Shadowofwind's caveats in place, is a good one, and would be most rewarding on a personal basis -- but those rewards are no more or less than what's available to you regardless of the exercise of your desires. Yes, if you live happily -- in a truly honest and harmless way -- you'll likely be happy; you'll even find the folks around you are happier too. But you won't suddenly manifest the root of your desires (and trust me, some of our desires would be most impressive and dangerous if ever manifest) -- you'll simply improve the ambiance of your life. You're likely already spooling up your objections and explanations, but when you do, could you include in them a note about how, exactly, this manifestation works, and what force suddenly senses your happy smile and chooses to fulfill your dreamy desires?

Seriously. I'm not being skeptical, here. This concept -- put essentially nothing into a pot, wait a while, and that pot will be full to the brim with whatever you desired -- simply does not make sense when viewed from any actual condition of human experience. I'd love to see it be real -- and God knows I've spent years trying to make it so, with my only reward being that I remembered during all that time to work hard, be good to people, and pay actual dues in life (from which I've benefited well enough, I suppose) -- but no matter how tightly I squint, or how broadly I smile, the world continues to spin as blindly as ever, heedless of my desires.

So if you can explain to me how this works, in a way that transcends cop-outs like "If you don't know then you can't know," I'd most appreciate it. Also, before you guys get all condescending on my ass, keep in mind while you're responding that I've been practicing this stuff for longer than I'll bet most of you have been alive. Among much else, I've read the Masonic Handbook (even witnessed rituals), the Golden Dawn, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, Blavatsky's Secret Doctrine, The Secret, even Seth Speaks, Peale's The power of Positive Thinking, and everything Richard Bach ever wrote; everything you discuss above is covered by those works in some form or another, so this is nothing new to me literally. All this reading doesn't even include the uncounted hours I've spent in the dream world exploring to some fairly amazing depths the concepts of manifestation they, and you, describe. As I said above, I have also been testing the claims of the treatises for many years (in and out of dreams) and, though living the OP's lifestyle can make things more pleasant, the only way I have ever found desires to be manifest, whether I'm thinking about them or not, is by putting real work, energy, sacrifice, and discipline into their "manifestation." Nothing else has ever worked. There is no free lunch. If there is, I haven't found it ... and God knows I've looked! ... tell me, if you can, where I went wrong.

One quick BTW, if you're still reading: Groups like the Freemasons, Rosecrucians, theosophists, romantics, etc, tended to be founded by fairly rich and powerful people who already had the means to get whatever they want. They also, because of their wealth and power, had enough time on their hands to invent their happy little cults to codify, and perhaps justify, the good fortune they already experienced. In other words, the progenitors of all this stuff already had their "good life" manifest, no doubt by hard work, inheritance, misdeeds, or whatever, but likely not through some mystical happiness payback. Their mystical magical "work" was more an excuse for rare good fortune in a very sad world than path for everyman.

You also seem to have completely misrepresented the Buddhist (real or not, whatever that means) view of things: They have no plan to "manifest" anything. In their quest for awareness, enlightenment, and a way off the Wheel after death they might share some of the steps you list (as do most religions), but they are by no means looking to fulfill their personal worldly desires, be they dreamt, imagined, or well thought out. The best in their business lived in caves, for God's sake! Cut the guys some slack. The only other true similarity here is that many Buddhist sects -- particular of the Zen variety -- are phenomenally narcissistic by any measure.

So be happy; spread those grins, find joy in nothing. All that will certainly make your life better, as long as you heed Shadowofwind's warnings. And yes, you will make other people happy because that's what being nice to people does -- nothing special there either. And, of course, if we all behaved this way, the world would indeed be a better place, but as a result of our own plain-old-up-front-mundane-human actions. There is nothing metaphysical in a well-heeled smile.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

I also want to add one other question: What about the many many people I know who do go through their entire lives happy -- even blissful -- and yet bad things still happen to them, plus they never receive what they truly desired? Surely this manifest reward isn't only bestowed upon those who know to ask? Wouldn't the Powers that oversee it be even more impressed by those who hold to happiness in the face of everything gone wrong, all the while completely ignorant of this manifestation system? Why aren't they being rewarded? You'd think they deserve it, given that they seem to be following all the rules as dictated in the OP.

---

Again, I dont have a complete scientific picture of how this works.

But the basic premise is simple. Reality is like a dream. Just as our thoughts, emotions and expectations create a world when we sleep so do the same thoughts, emotions and expectations manifest in the waking.

However the waking is a shared reality and the laws of physics make it distinctively different than dreaming. The actual process at this point is fuzzy, anything I say is just an idea and not an absolute.

The best explanation is that this shared reality is like a sea of thoughts. And just like the sea, some places are muddy, mucky, some places cold, some places beautiful and pristine. Thoughts are like waves (well actually they are waves). Like all waves, these thoughts can resonate with each other.

So if your "wave" resonates with the pristine part of the sea of thoughts, then thats what you experience. Or if your "wave" resonates with the mucky waters of the sea of thoughts, then thats what you get.


Thanks to HeartMath, its been proven our emotions are literally more powerful than thoughts. This means its actually our emotional state more than anything that is projecting what our reality will be.

But to answer your question, youre gonna have to stop telling fairy tales.

NO ONE has gone through their entire life "happy" or blissful. That's just an outright self-delusion. Such a person wouldn't even be recognizable as sane. They would be half naked in the streets, laughing, dancing, raving 24/7 and we would all think they're off the wall mad.

Nor you can say with certainity that just because you know someone to be "very happy" that they have never had such secret sadness in their heart. Or that this person has never known doubt. Or that this person has never known fear.

The LOA is the cosmic mirror, you can hide nothing.

I already mentioned this in my other post. What MOST people consider to be HAPPY is not really good enough.

Its because our happiness is so pathetically weak in the face of BLISS that it takes so long for that happiness to make a dent in the sea of thoughts. Bliss cuts through that swampy sea and creates a clear path almost instantaneously. But "happiness" is still lofty and uncertain.

I hope you realize by now its got nothing to do with "deserving" or being "rewarded".

The reason why the LOA is actually a spiritual awakening process and not some magical get rich scheme--is because for it to actually work for you - you have to accept that you are not separate from creator. You have to stop blaming outside forces for the way your life is. You have to stop begging, wishing and hoping.

You have to accept full responsibility for yourself and your life.

And more importantly, the LOA is an invitation to accept that you have the freedom to live in the space of joy. The only catch is, you have to exeperience that joy first.





I was burnt out and pretty upset at this LOA thing. It wasn't working right for me. Finally I had to accept that either its all bull or I have never known true happiness. I choose the latter.

This is the very reason I don't put all my eggs in the LOA basket, but also practice Buddhism. I almost feel it's worth quoting my original post as well but I'll try to elaborate instead.

A buddhist would say everything is impermanent. Your favorite toy is in a state of flux, and its next stage is either lost or broken. An ascetic would remove all their toys and go live in a cave in order to numb themselves to suffering. A hedonist would forget the toy's next stage and suffer when it comes. A buddhist (the middle path) would simply understand that while the toy is going to be lost or broken eventually, he has it right now and it can be enjoyed right now. He doesn't know when it will hit its next stage, only that it will happen. It is inevitable.

Doubt is a mind killer, and serves some amount of purpose when planning action but in the moment it greatly impedes you. The runner that doubts themselves is slower than the runner that does not. The man that doubts himself does not seduce the woman as well as the man that does not. When performing the action, doubt has no place. Doubt is also the main obstacle in LOA. It creates an anxious feeling like you cannot have what you want. It hinders your ability to blissfully soak in the now because not only is your list of desires not complete but it may never be complete.

Regarding LOA with the example above, LOA is like knowing you want a toy that you don't think you can have by any practical means. The only way to get it would be if some sort of miracle were to happen. But you want it, and because you want it, you suffer without it. Someone looking into Buddhsim from the outside might think, "So they teach you that you shouldn't want it, right? You're supposed to relinquish all desire." In actuality, the wanting is not the obstacle, instead they have a more accurate word that translates to something like "thirsting," which is actually like running from the desire.

See, when we want something, the act of obtaining it is often a means to escape that insufferable feeling of wanting it. We need it because we're seeking to alleviate the feeling of wanting. But on its own, the feeling of wanting is actually a really pleasant feeling. The unpleasantness comes from doubt and resistance. So embrace the feeling of wanting. You don't need to embrace it without acting upon it when the circumstances are right, nor embrace it with the assumption that if you embrace it then it will magically manifest and alleviate the feeling. Instead, allow the unknown to be unknown. You don't need to save yourself from suffering by killing your expectations with doubt from the beginning, nor do you need to set your expectations as high as the moon. The feeling of wanting is enough, not to manifest it necessarily (though I think it helps) but to stop projecting your happiness into a future where you'll be alleviated from wanting. Take the reward now. The wanting never goes away. It's not something you need to numb yourself to, nor something you need to chase. Wanting is the magnificent bath water of the moment. Soak in it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

So if you can explain to me how this works, in a way that transcends cop-outs like "If you don't know then you can't know," I'd most appreciate it.

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Sageous, This is the same topic as shared thought in another form, and like I've said before, I don't know how it works. That's not a cop-out. People had compasses for centuries before Maxwell's equations were developed, and even those equations merely describe but don't explain magnetism. I don't see why we should be held to a higher standard of objective knowledge than most of history's best scientists. Its only been for the past 100 years or so that this 'explain how it works' approach to experience has even been possible, and most of the people who do that aren't the same kind of people who made it possible to start with.

I have to wonder if there's something else eating at you here that's connected to the potentially magical nature of desire but isn't exactly that. Somehow you read my comments to suggest that I was completely dismissing the supernatural reality of positive thinking, even though I stated clearly at many points that I wasn't. Then when I said that wasn't what I meant, you went straight from there to "getting something for nothing". I never said anything about getting something for nothing. Desire is not nothing. By desire you can move your body, a sensitive instrument well suited for being manipulated by desire. If by desire you can also move other objects besides your body, how is that getting something for nothing? It may be a lot harder, or arguably even impossible, but judging that comes down to understanding what desire is, and that is not something anybody understands. The people who say its an emergent property of electrochemical interactions in the brain may be right, but they're just guessing, they have no idea.

You must know me well enough to know that I don't view cheerfulness as a cure-all. So that must not be what I've been saying.

People claim to have figured out how it works but it hasn't endured enough scientific rigor to be considered a valid theory.

But theory is the wrong word. Theory is part of the problem. When you read the Celestine Prophecy, for instance, you're reading about events that never happened. In this way, you're reading about Theory. When you read Eckhart Tolle, who describes in detail what led him to his state of mind, you're reading reality. There is a difference in information. Someone who got rich by selling a book on how to get rich is delivering theory. A biography about someone who got rich delivers real instructions rather than just theory.

Theory is not as important as practical stories showing how it's actually been done, and most successful practitioners of LOA did not become good by reading Theory from The Secret, they learned from other successful people and followed their example.

So the theory is secondary to the instructions delivered by people who have succeeded. But the theory essentially states that everything is a vibration set a particular frequency. Life emerges from the collective of frequencies into practically infinite different designs. This essentially means all information is stored via variations in frequency, which is not so hard to believe when you think about what a bit of information stored in a computer is actually comprised of, or a pixel in a virtual image. Very simple code, linked together, can store very complex information. We are all essentially a system of information before anything else. Our essence is information, and the essence of everything else is information. These various systems of information can interact with each other which essentially means they act upon each other and change the values of each other through action. This is transactional, but certain actions prove more functional than others causing certain transactions to be more one-sided.

When regarding a radio broadcast, we think in terms of electromagnetic waves. These waves must travel through space and time, meaning they must cover a distance and take time to reach their target. With the essential transactional relationship between systems of information, space-time is not a factor. If you consider everything you are capable of perceiving (both directly and indirectly) as an event horizon, that is the sphere of what LOA instructors call the mind. One of a fundamental lessons you will learn from these people is that you have a brain, and then you have a mind, and they are not the same thing.

Think Schrodinger's Cat for this one. The cat is both alive and dead until the box is observed, at which point one possibility is erased (for all intensive purposes) and the other is manifest. This is the mind in action, not purely receiving data but creating it. This does not mean if someone puts a deck of cards in front of you without looking at them that you can manifest the card you want every time. Every observer present affects the results so you'd have a better chance by yourself, but even then you'll be lucky to score 50% above chance and won't have any way to differentiate whether you willed the card you desired into existence or merely predicted the one that would come up. See, you need to follow your desire and as you explore the source of your desires you'll find the distinction fades. You won't be able to tell if the ace of diamonds makes you excited because it's about to come up or because you're just really excited to get the ace of diamonds to come up. Keep in mind, interaction between information systems is transactional, after all.

And you may wonder if the heart of your desires is already in tune with what's going to happen naturally, or at the very least symbiotically tuned into the natural flow of energy, then what's the point? To alleviate suffering, one might answer. But it's all just theory, and no matter how much explanation you can give as to why the falsifiable experiments don't work, it doesn't hold a candle up to how instructors explain it works in the practical sense, free of quantum theory and everything else.

Instructors explain it like this scene in Benjamin Button.

Shadowofwind:

You're correct, I was indeed having yet another stab at something that has been eating me. I think it is excellent that you noticed it, because few do (they usually just write me off as a mindless "skeptic" or just another asshole who doesn't get it. Perhaps I am) There is so much more to this subject, and in the name of pushing the conversation I was doing a little baiting with questions to which I knew there are no answers. Clearly it did not go well!

The stuff that forms the foundation of LOA or manifestation runs very deep within us all, and talk like this shows that the participants might be interested in plumbing those depths. So I gave it a shot. I hope you'll forgive the effort, because I did get a bit snippy there.

I think I have more to say before I yet again pack up my toys and go home, but it's late, my mind is frazzled, so I know I'll regret anything I try to post tonight. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe never, who knows?

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Originally Posted by juroara

NO ONE has gone through their entire life "happy" or blissful. That's just an outright self-delusion. Such a person wouldn't even be recognizable as sane. They would be half naked in the streets, laughing, dancing, raving 24/7 and we would all think they're off the wall mad.

Nor you can say with certainity that just because you know someone to be "very happy" that they have never had such secret sadness in their heart. Or that this person has never known doubt. Or that this person has never known fear.

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You are absolutely right. No sane person can maintain perfect happiness from cradle to grave. In truth I didn't even realize I said that, though I obviously did. I guess I was accidentally waxing hyperbolic there, just to make a point. And by extension sure, everyone must suffer pain fear, or doubt in their lives, no matter how happy they generally are (or how well they cope with the hurt, I suppose). Sorry if I overreached.

Yes, I cannot guarantee that my perception of others' happiness is accurate, but if they're faking it, then they are masters of deception indeed!

Considering where I've been and where I've gone, I have nothing to fake. But even with such an extraordinary liberation from suffering as I've gone through, people are still capable of pissing me off. I just get through it, and trying to change the situation as quickly as possible. EFT helps, which mcwillis posted a video of near the OP.

Omnis Dei,

Your statement "people claim to have figured out how it works but it hasn't endured enough scientific rigor to be considered a valid theory" seems to me to be an understatement times a billion.

As you may have noticed, a hundred years ago radio was a high sounding buzzword, hence the brand name 'radio flyer' for a child's wagon for instance. The New Age movement was in its heyday at the same time. Science is another word that late 19th and early 20th century spiritualists threw around a lot (Christian Science, Thought Science, Science of Mind). This is the only sense I can make of how people talk about 'frequencies'. I'm unable to connect it in any meaningful way, metaphorical or otherwise, with what I know about oscillations in nature, such as in chemical bonds. If you can do that I'd be interested, because people use the same words to describe astral matter, and that's something I'm interested in understanding better.

In the Schrodinger cat example, its the interaction between the cat and the physical system measuring it that forces it into a definite state within that system. As far as the physics description goes, the consciousness of a scientist that is completely irrelevant. Interacting particles work this way whether people are observing them or not, otherwise your computer would go nova the moment your attention wandered.

I think the hows and whys do matter in the sense that if you don't fully understand something you can't tell if the results you're getting are really what they seem to be. But of course I agree that a person doesn't need a full understanding in order to understand something.

You can't claim that just because something stops existing when your attention wanders from it, that means it won't function the same way as before when you put your attention back on it. While there are limitations as far as what results the environment can stimulate, within these limitations is chaos. Hence Chaos Magick, the idea that you can alter the information as long as you aren't trying to alter it beyond its arbitrary capacities.

Frequency is the basic code for existence. It's no more a buzzword than bit is a buzzard when describing information in a computer. Life is made up of code, and the most basic code for all life is categorized into frequencies. Frequencies are how information is communicated between systems, just how bits are how virtual information is communicated between computer systems.

Peter J Carrol explains this much better than I can.

^^ Theory, Omnis Dei, is important, especially when trying to understand, and utilize, something we all know very little about, like this.

Your post convinced me finally to put up the following, which I wrote last night but sensed even then was losing relevance here quite rapidly. Whether it's too late, or never mattered at all doesn't matter now, I suppose -- it's here. I hope it makes sense.

To all the participants here, especially Omnis Dei:

Following is a short post script to a response I made to Shadowofwind earlier. It seems to already be somewhat out of date, but I figured I’d stick it in anyway. Why? I haven’t a clue. If my tone seems condescending or emotional, just ignore that -- I don’t feel that way.

Now:

First, this was one of the best conversations that I've encountered in a long while on the topic of thought/emotion driven desire-based creation (aka: LOA, manifestation, thought forms, thought energy, positive thinking, prayer, prana, Clear Light, white magic, etc, etc, etc -- every mystic who ever stepped outside himself for three seconds thought he "discovered" the potential of mystical manifestation, so the list of "original" versions of essentially the same thing is very long). This is true not only for your thoughtful posts but for your interest and commitment to this wispy subject. You're on to something for sure, and should never stop searching -- or smiling!

That said, the reason that I posted what I did was because I already knew my main and likely by now long forgotten question could not be answered. I was hoping through asking it, though, to see a conversation emerge about the depth and potentials of this stuff, rather than just another billboard about getting good fortune or easy living with minimal effort, with the requisite and enforced acceptance that LOA is an actual physical law. The thread, and its participants, seemed ripe for growth.

Sadly for me, but not you guys, the bulk of my question went fully ignored, with only my throwaway points getting discussed. This I suppose makes sense if all you want to discuss is “How to,” and not get into questions like “What if?” “Why?” and “Where can we take this?” I get it, now, and should have gotten it earlier when reading the simple dismissals of any questions regarding the actual metaphysical validity of the OP, or LOA. My bad.

And no, Shadowofwind, I was not looking for a concrete explanation for how specifically that LOA's compass works. I really don’t care about that. I was looking only for a description of the compass itself. You guys are throwing an enormous amount of words about, but your focus is very narrow. Sure, the OP’s steps are interesting, but is that it? -- PS: sorry to make you add all those words about your "theory" of how LOA functions, Omnis -- it was entertaining, but unnecessary.

Stepping beyond the standards of threads like this -- "It is because it is," obsession with minutia, all the anecdotal “evidence,” and now (as per Omnis Dei’s last post) actual dismissals of deeper exploration -- for a few minutes to more carefully examine or at least imagine from our various perspectives the source of the “magic” behind this stuff might have taken us closer to actually manipulating the energies we all sense exist, rather than simply come up with schemes that we know in our hearts really don't work.

Know in our hearts really don't work?

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Know in our hearts really don't work?

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Sure. It's just an opinion about which I could be of course be wrong (though it is based on personally testing disciplines like this for decades -- which I know also means nothing in the real world).

But think about it. If you had a method for manifestation that truly worked, would you really be spending your days on this site, or on your computer at all, given that all your desires would be met with relative ease through a very pleasant process. Surely your deepest desires don't include typing shit on a web forum! ;)

I must note as well that once again only the throwaway bit of my post was acknowledged or questioned. Perhaps I should not have bothered?

For me sageous, its not the method ive doubted, its everything else

And I dont feel ive only answered the throw away bits of your post....

Sageous,

I still think you might get better results if you didn't try to nudge us around with hints as if we're children playing at the feet of a master. We're not being obstinate, we're just not picking up on what you're hinting at much of the time. Maybe you can put your concern in a very specific question, not one that's in the direction of the question, but the question itself? If you've already done that I keep missing it.

Omnis Dei,

I don't see that frequency is how information is communicated between systems, any more than amplitude, or phase. Any arbitrary information can be communicated with just one frequency. I'm not just making this up or repeating something someone has said, I can explain this in great detail.

If a clock does not exist while your attention is away from it, what causes it to be on time when you put your attention back?

Physics, including quantum physics, requires things to exist while your attention is away. If you posit that they don't, then I don't think the Schrodinger cat example is relevant, because you're not talking about quantum physics.

If the most basic code for life is known to be categorized into frequencies, then someone should be able to show that categorization, preferably in text. M-theory could arguably be interpreted as a theory of frequencies. But there the frequencies that define the modes of existence in our world are fixed, the atoms in the bodies of different individuals don't vibrate at different frequencies according to their natures, for example.

I'm uncomfortable with this line of discussion though, and am glad to let it go if you want to.

Incidentally, I dreamed of you last night, you were named Ben Peterson I think. (I don't expect that is very close to your real name, the letters and sounds in the name would be by association with other things.)

According to scientists, the earth is already about halfway through its habitable life cycle. (I know this seems off topic, but I'm going somewhere with this.) The sun is gradually getting hotter, and will eventually bake everything. Also the moon is getting further away, and will eventually no longer stabilize the axis of rotation, which will go through a chaotic period and end up in the orbital plane. The oceans are expected to be gone by then though. If the path of evolution tends towards morality, as you have suggested, that morality was still built upon hundreds of millions of years of tooth and nail brutality, encompassing at least half of the whole history. For every Bach that can create something beautiful, scores of artistically ugly people failed to accomplish their hopes and dreams and were weeded out. They felt that failure and suffered. Unfortunate people have been born and continue to be born with horribly painful defects, without a chance at a good life, with or without the 'law of attraction'. I realized this morning that I need to feel these people, they are a part of the world that is a part of me. I'm not advocating this for other people, at least not in the same way, but it is who I am. Without this I feel cut off, damned up inside. So I think the only way for me to be free of pain is for the world and its history to become free of pain. I'm not saying that I can't know joy also, or that I should punish myself, or make my own life worse for the sake of solidarity those who didn't have the same opportunities that I did. I'm just saying that I will allow myself to feel what is there, and not shut things out. A couple of days ago I said something like this in relation to external relations, but this applies internally also. For me this supersedes other considerations in the context of 'law of attraction'. Again I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything here, I'm just explaining something about where I'm coming from that I now realize.

Juroara,

Thanks for your thoughts. I'd be interested in seeing your art. Did you paint your icon?

I also quit my job and assumed things would work out. I learned more about the extent to which people are expected to follow certain patterns in life. I also learned that just because things seem fated doesn't mean they'll work out well. Your thoughts determine what happens for you, but only in intersection with other people's thoughts, and other people may wish to take advantage of you. Everyone has a slightly different process they need to go through though. I'm happy to hear what you've been doing has been a positive process for you.

Ironically, I think that for me my relentlessly critical nature is a part of what freed me, even though I obviously pay a price for it also, and its something I want to continue to change. Its part of how I saw through patterns that I would have been trapped in otherwise. I think every person's failings are a special gift if they understand them the right way.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Sageous,

I still think you might get better results if you didn't try to nudge us around with hints as if we're children playing at the feet of a master. We're not being obstinate, we're just not picking up on what you're hinting at much of the time. Maybe you can put your concern in a very specific question, not one that's in the direction of the question, but the question itself? If you've already done that I keep missing it.

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You are absolutely right, but I can't seem to stop myself. I don't know why. My last post, I think, was as close to specific as I can get, and I thought I was clear. But if you missed it, I have failed for sure.

Sometimes I think I reside on a different planet.

Keep up the chat guys, and listen to Shadowofwind. Maybe someday I'll find words and questions that attract attention, because, as I said, the root of this thread might represent a foundation of our very existence, and it would be real nice to discuss what it implies rather spend time outlining one of its side-effects (LOA).

I think I've run out of steam.

Sageous,

I posted a long reply last night to your 'why waste time on the internet if magic is real' question, and now its gone. But I saved it in the mouse buffer! So here it is again.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

My last post, I think, was as close to specific as I can get, and I thought I was clear.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

But think about it. If you had a method for manifestation that truly worked, would you really be spending your days on this site, or on your computer at all, given that all your desires would be met with relative ease through a very pleasant process. Surely your deepest desires don't include typing shit on a web forum!

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That's the question you asked two years ago, in your first response to one of my posts, in relation to psychic phenomena in dreams. I can't speak for other people but I can answer it again for myself.

If I lived where my kids live, I would never post online. As I see it, I can't fix that problem for two reasons. One is definitely out of my control: I'm a victim of economic forces which affect millions of other people also, and those forces are to a large extent a result of how our society as a whole thinks about personal gain. I suffer and other people suffer because humanity as a whole is selfish and shortsighted. The other problem is my own desire, I think it does have a supernatural effect on my fate, as I have suggested here. For instance, a part of me would like to screw new women, and I can't do that if I'm with my wife. That desire warps my fate so that I have opportunity, even though I don't use the opportunity because I have other stronger desires opposing it. To completely eliminate this effect I'd have to completely change my sexual nature, not merely suppressing it but completely changing it. That's not an easy thing to do. I also have a significant desire to do something about this religious/paranormal stuff, and that desire creates an opportunity to focus on it. To fix that, I have to satisfy that call somehow. "Changing my mind" about these things isn't good enough, it has to go to the core or it doesn't work. That's because the LOA principle is real, at least in that sense.

So why then do I post instead of doing other things? Like I've said elsewhere, I can't work and meditate and sleep 24 hours a day. Also, I really do like interacting with people, and this is a primary opportunity I have to do that, limited as it might be. If I could choose between manifesting riches and sharing meaningful experiences with people, I'll pick the latter every time. Though most of the discussion here is frustrating and limited, I do learn things. For instance I think I've made a little bit of headway on my heart-song topic as a result of this thread. And I think that's a critically important topic for me. If an internet discussion is the only way a particular piece can fall into place, then that's what I've got to do, even if it requires butting against a hedge for a lifetime. And there is a 'real' aspect to the social interaction. I've had dream experiences in relation to several individuals from the site, though I generally only discuss that in private messages, and this does seem to exercise and grow that part of myself. A few months ago I decided I'd had enough of the DreamViews BS and I withdrew in my mind, but then I felt myself regressing. One way or another I have to keep at it, even if I don't do that here. Aside from the interpersonal interaction, I also need some metaphor food for thought, since I don't watch movies, and I get some of that here.

Your question seems to me to be a little bit of a straw man. I've claimed that supernatural phenomena are real, never that I can beckon the tides with a flip of my finger. Or are you wondering why supernatural seems to be so weak? I have some intuitions about that, how true they are I don't know. One is that the universe is mostly frozen, almost like how a person survives in shock after a grave injury. Our instincts and perceptions are seriously fucked up, and we've already got all the power we can handle. That second part is not an intuition, I can see that fairly objectively. Look at the biography of a Franklin Jones and what they do with their power. They use it in a way that undermines it and takes them out of the picture. Its self-pruning. Give any person strong psychic power and they will turn into a monster. They can't help themselves. I've got enough trouble just with my tiny apportionment. As I gain the independent confidence and ease that a little perspective brings, my reflex is to treat other people like crap because I don't need them. Maybe I'm damned to spend an eternity posting on the internet until I learn not to treat other posters like punching bags, and start approaching them with a little bit of compassion and understanding, as fellow human beings. Then after I do that I can graduate to talking to people face to face. There is a real person, but mostly I just speak to the mask. Need to try harder to see the real person. To allow myself to feel them. Or to understand why I should not.

If I am who I am in part because I have everyone else in me, maybe I can't completely transform myself fundamentally because I can't change everyone else. Maybe I can't let myself feel other people totally, because I can't afford to get drawn into other people's addictions. Or maybe there is a way, another way of thinking. I think I'm stronger than I was. If our universe has fallen into some kind of catastrophe, as I feel it has, can it ever heal itself? I think there's a fallacy in the question. In some sense there's no way out, we're just fucked, forever. In some other sense I think recovery is possible. I will keep trying until I understand. This is why I need to learn about who I am and what my relationship is with everyone else, because I can't answer the question without understanding that. As my understanding of identity changes, the intuitions I'm capable of getting about fate and the problem of evil change. As long as my thought of identity is somewhat wrong or incomplete, the intuitions are false also. I think I've been making some headway. If the headway seems small, consider the audacity of the project.

The unity of identity makes the problem harder in the sense that individuals can't pull themselves out of the collective trainwreck. But without that unity, it would be impossible to ever resurrect the whole system. It would be like trying to pick up a gigantic wet sail that was lying on the ground.

Another angle on this....Maybe your question is something to the effect of "I wanted a life of finding answers to these big questions, transforming our experience, striding with humanity towards the promised land, but what I got was a tiny caricature of that life. What the hell happened?" I think this is the same question that I just tried to answer in another form. We've been playing this 'teacher/aspirant/sage' game for ages. Its a farce because everything is a farce. We fail as sages for the same reason that husbands fail as husbands and angels act like demons. In some other life we had 10 times the wisdom we do now, but we still act out the same drama, even though the knowledge and power content is mostly missing. The idea that the world is the problem and The Way as any of us conceive of it is the solution is a mistake. Our thought of the solution is as messed up as anything. When that's fixed, everything else will be fixed also.

Another way to answer that is to say is that pride and power lust is what happened. We're too busy stroking ourselves and not actually doing the work we pretend to care about. But part of that answer is that its just hard, we're starting off from a hard place, it just takes time to get off the ground.

We have help though. I think the heavens are as messed up as the earth, at least what the heavens have become to we who are like ourselves. But even in that realm there's an effort to wake up, to communicate, to care for. My struggle is to a very large extent not driven by 'me'. Yes I own it, and there is a greater, semi-collective 'me' involved, but its shared with a lot of other spirits, so to speak. And in some real sense it must be like that for you also I think, and for everyone, even if you don't experience that in quite the same way.

Gotta go. I hope that hits the mark in some way.

^^ You've hit the mark on many levels, Shadowofwind, nicely said!

My question was directed more at Omnis Dei than you, because, though I've actually only been here a year, I indeed do know from our past exchanges that you would find that question flawed, or weak at best. Not a straw man, though, I assure you; your perspective, especially as outlined above, is much different I think that that of others posting here -- I have a feeling that they truly believe that harnessing this LOA will manifest a better life for them without commensurate exchange of effort (and I'm not just speaking of material gain, here, I hope you understand that). I don't think you feel that way, and I never did. As a matter of fact, your post tends to compliment my thought that real success is the result of hard work, sacrifice, and some suffering -- it cannot "just come to you," no matter how great your joy. As usual you lay out a slightly darker version of why it won't "just come to you" than I might, but I think, as usual, we're in general agreement.

So, though your response answers my question well, it does so to me, because you are basically stating what I've been (poorly) hinting at throughout my posts: You cannot simply manifest good fortune, no matter how much joy you generate, because there are far too many complications in the real world that conspire to interfere with that manifestation. One of the major complications, I think, is that LAO, if it exists, is a law shared by 7 billion souls, so results would necessarily be diluted, with "pure," focused fortune coming directly to you perhaps a statistical impossibility. Weakness indeed.

I think asking about why you'd be on the internet said more about you not being where you wish to be (with your kids, in your case) than it did about desiring to type on the internet. My point was that if LOA or manifestation works, the desires fulfilled would very likely transcend this need we have to blather on on these forums, and "typing"would quickly fade into memory as we find ourselves living the way we always wished we could. Yes, I suppose that there are those whose deepest desires include chat forums, but I really believe the folks here exceed that caliber.

By raising the question (same question, of course, as ones like "if you can tell the future, why are you here telling us that, and not living in the lap of luxury or power thanks to your abilities?" -- just cut and paste for ESP, shared-dreaming, telekinesis, etc; it's all drawn from the same well, and is never answered), I was speaking more to the potentials of LOA, its underlying power as illustrated on this thread, than I was its practical utilization by individuals. If such a law exists, or manifestation can be done with just joy, then the force that drive it must be enormous and would add whole new chapters to the physics books. To be able to tap such a force at will -- even without ever once understanding how specifically it works -- would be to alter your very existence, I think... unless of course this LOA is an incredibly weak or already over-tapped force, as you imply, and we're all talking about nothing! Threads like this almost always jump right to the "what can I do to get something out of this right now" mode, completely overstepping the thing that's actually being talked about. That, I believe, is why I persist on asking these questions, and why I get so frustrated when they consistently go ignored.

I also tried to point out that countless versions of these methods for manifestation have been around probably as long as harnessed fire has, and they pretty much never work ... if they did, we would be learning them from birth, and "manifesting" by rote at this point. But -- as you sort of implied above -- that doesn't mean the Law, doesn't exist, just that we can't tap it. Indeed, all these methods might be with us still because it is in our nature to sense them (I think you said that, too, but I'm running out of time and can't look up).

I think I'm talking in circles now, especially when all I had to say was "agreed, and thank you," so I'll put on the brakes.

Bottom line, I think, is that I was not presenting a straw man question at all, given that the promise of this "Law" is transcendent, so being able to harness it and still being on this site seem to me to be in juxtaposition. You outline well why they might not be, but I think your thoughts might not be share by everyone here. It would be nice I think, if others chose to dive as deeply as you just did.

A point of possible clarification....

I meant to indicate that there are limitations that make the 'law of attraction' not behave in the manner that is often claimed. I didn't mean that those limitations weakened it to the point of unimportance.

Physics analogy: two jugs of water a meter apart exert a very small electrostatic force on each other (see wikipedia page on 'fundamental interaction'). Yet the electrons in one bucket would repel those in the other with a net force of about 100000000000000000000000000 lbs, if not counteracted by the protons. Gravity, in contrast, is extremely weak in comparison, but has large effects because it acts cumulatively. Spontaneous joy is to a significant extent not a zero-sum thing, it is not counter-balanced by other people's happiness. Likewise for courage, sincerity, etc. So even if the force of it is small, it can have a very important impact on destiny. I generally perceive self-deception to be a bigger negative than gloom, but I think a person could make a reasonable argument that they're equally significant. Though I have criticisms of practiced cheerfulness, I don't want to denigrate emotion as if it doesn't matter or doesn't do anything psychically.

Sorry you didn't think that I dove deep enough. But dont make the assumption that the LOA just ignores these issues you've brought up. A lot of these concerns are even covered in The Secret, and that movie is a basic outlook on the LOA. There are so many great books out there that have discussed every concern you brought up. Including what the LOA means about our reality and our place in the universe. The most ancient source that I can think of is Dream Yoga, that teaches our reality is just a giant shared dream!

I'm sorry if I wasnt upfront and answered your question why come to dreamviews when I have the LOA. But dont you think thats a rather judgemental question? I mean, do you go to monks and ask "Are you enlightened yet? Well why not?". Why not ask the same question of yourself first.

The steps in this thread reiterate the importance of experiencing joy free from attachments and coming from within yourself. Do you know someone who can do this at command, because if you do they're my teacher. I just wait for spontaneous moments.

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Originally Posted by juroara

Sorry you didn't think that I dove deep enough. But dont make the assumption that the LOA just ignores these issues you've brought up. A lot of these concerns are even covered in The Secret, and that movie is a basic outlook on the LOA. There are so many great books out there that have discussed every concern you brought up. Including what the LOA means about our reality and our place in the universe. The most ancient source that I can think of is Dream Yoga, that teaches our reality is just a giant shared dream!

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I understand that, and had a feeling that you and the other contributors to this thread had, finally, the chops to dig a bit deeper into LOA, and that's why I pushed a bit. But no worries; Shadowofwind straightened me out, and I'll not ask stupid questions anymore ... but if I think of a smart one I'll chime in! ;)

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I'm sorry if I wasnt upfront and answered your question why come to dreamviews when I have the LOA. But dont you think thats a rather judgemental question?

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I suppose it would be a judgmental question, if I assumed ahead of time that the people I asked didn't have an answer. I did not. I am always in search of an answer, and not a victory. You don't gain knowledge by "besting" folks with clever wit, you do so by listening ... and I was ready to listen. I still am.

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I mean, do you go to monks and ask "Are you enlightened yet? Well why not?". Why not ask the same question of yourself first.

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In all honesty, I would go to the monks, especially the higher lamas, and ask that very question. Indeed, I would not hesitate to ask this same question to spiritual leaders, self-proclaimed mystics, and anyone else who claims to have simple solutions to very difficult questions, or easy methods to do what on paper is impossible, like manifestation ... and I would always listen attentively for an answer.

For what it's worth, I ask myself that question almost every day. Funny, over the years, that question to myself has gotten many different answers -- or should I call them excuses? So no, I don't claim to be better than any of you, or any more successful in my search for more. I just sensed a bucket of excellent knowledge to dip into and went for it. Sorry you didn't like the route I chose very much.

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The steps in this thread reiterate the importance of experiencing joy free from attachments and coming from within yourself. Do you know someone who can do this at command, because if you do they're my teacher. I just wait for spontaneous moments.

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Yes, I think I've encountered many people in life who could experience innate joy free from attachments. In fact, it troubles me that you find this such an alien thing. Maybe you should move in different circles? Calling up joy "on command" seems a curious thing, and I doubt any of those people chose specific moments for their joy. Does that matter? Isn't the joy enough unto itself without needing to be ready made?

Once more, all apologies for interfering so miserably. I actually have a lot of respect for and interest in the possible foundations of LOA and manifestation, and hope that you haven't chosen to judge me as just another poo-pooing skeptic. I may be a bit jaundiced, and by nature reflexively cynical of the latest Easy Way Out strategy because I've found and tried so very many that were nothing more than pretty words and empty promises. But I am about as Interested in this stuff as a person can be.

So I'll stop now; please feel free to ignore me, but I hope you don't, and do dare to dip into the water a bit; I think you guys are definitely up to the task.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Sure. It's just an opinion about which I could be of course be wrong (though it is based on personally testing disciplines like this for decades -- which I know also means nothing in the real world).

But think about it. If you had a method for manifestation that truly worked, would you really be spending your days on this site, or on your computer at all, given that all your desires would be met with relative ease through a very pleasant process. Surely your deepest desires don't include typing shit on a web forum! ;)

I must note as well that once again only the throwaway bit of my post was acknowledged or questioned. Perhaps I should not have bothered?

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For right now, yes. I don't go to DV because I'm unhappy with my life and fuck it there's nothing else to do. I'm living the fucking dream, and DV rocks.

Besides manifestation doesn't have to work, I don't really give a shit. Granted it's easier to live in abundance when you believe that attitude will get you abundance, but it's not necessary. At the end of the day all I could do was answer a simple question for myself. Why live in the lack?

For instance I met a beautiful girl last week and she's a total tease who's been flirting with me for days but ended up hooking up with someone else last night. I'm not offended, flirtation doesn't mean she's mine. I do have feelings for her, and I could just say fuck that bitch, it's not worth the trouble. But I don't know what the future will hold. I don't enjoy my feelings for her in order to magically make her mine. Fuck she'd probably just drive me insane. I just have feelings for her because it feels so good to let that desire have some space.

Why live in the lack?

^^ I hear you. I think.

If you mean that it makes more sense to be positive, and not assume things can't work, I agree completely. I also agree that there is no sense dwelling on unfulfilled desire. But if you spend years doing nothing but wait for good things to come, and they never do, then what?

I have an old Spanish proverb tacked to my wall that I think might apply here: "Pray to God. But hammer away."

You stop waiting for them. Understand that when you desire something, you're really enjoying the feeling you can imagine having if the desire comes into fruition. The actual manifestation of the desire is not necessary in order to enjoy the feeling of desire. But we typically invest our happiness in the manifestation rather than enjoy it now because we doubt that it can come. We kill ourselves with expectations and waiting, especially because nothing ever matches up 100% like you expect it to. In defense, we then numb ourselves to high expectations. But it's because we don't really realize the basic fact that only our doubt in our ability to manifest our desires causes us to expect things. Without doubt, there is no problem. You don't actually need to manifest your desires at all as long as you do not doubt them.

Sageous,

I'll like to respond to your question of how manifestation works as I see it and share a personal experience.

During my recent move to Austin, I was looking for an apartment for my girlfriend and I. Due to a credit problem of mine, our selection was very limited. I spent a months constantly researching. We finally found a place that seemed would work out, only to be turned down. For a moment I felt depressed, maybe the move wouldn't work out at all. Then I decided to just trust the universe that a better opportunity was in store. At this point, all while believing this opportunity would manifest, I tried out new ways of searching for an apartment. I talked my girlfriend into being open to the idea of roommates. Within a week or two, we had found a new place that was less expensive than the one we got turned down for, nicer, more centrally located, and since we would be moving in with roommates, already impeccably furnished. A similar experience also happened when looking for a new job.

Hermann Hesse described manifesting desires as focusing your will on an outcome. It is not that there is a supernatural force out there magically manifesting your desires - it is your own will. When you focus everything on achieving a certain outcome or desire, then your will is ready to grab that opportunity as soon as it presents itself - an opportunity you may have otherwise missed.

I agree with your criticisms of the LOA and that there is no free lunch. In my experience that I described, I certainly wouldn't have found a great apartment without hard work and research, but I also wouldn't have found it if I had given up hope after the first rejection. Believing that everything would work out kept me positive and open to novel opportunities.

I've applied manifestation in other ways on small scales that has seemed to work for me. I also agree with Shadowofwind's criticisms in that attempting to manifest your desire can cause harm to others inadvertently. This is why I hesitate to truly attempt LOA for anything other than my highest goals. If thought energy is in fact real, it would seem a waste to me I was to focus my thought energy on manifesting a car, success, or even happiness, when I could be directing that energy to achieving a true understanding of existence or an end to suffering for all beings.

Nicely said, Hermine, and I feel that we are very much in agreement on all your points -- especially the major one stating that manifestation is a result of your own focus, actions, and work -- aka, your will (please correct me if I misunderstood; I do that a lot!). Very true. I was always a fan of Hesse, BTW.

One thing I am concerned about your reaction to me that I forgot to mention before when others noted it: I don't know how I projected the idea (probably my ugly cynical writing form), but I am also a very big fan of hope. It's one of the things that makes us human, after all, and hope is often the one virtue, when held tight, that not only provides the strength and patience needed during the long (oft eternal) wait for "manifestation," but also it is the strongest rope we can grasp when we need to pull ourselves out of really bad times. No, I don't lack hope, or dismiss it. I especially don't abandon it, as that would be a hellish choice indeed! I guess I just don't like seeing it presented as a tool for getting something for nothing, though. That's simply wrong, on many levels.

This all reminds me of a sermon I once heard, that I think has relevance here:

A woman, a very poor yet pious woman, prayed every day to win the lottery. She prayed very hard, lived her life as well as she could, raised a good and happy family, loved them all, but still she never won the lottery. Oh, the things she could do for her family and friends, she told God, if only she could win the lottery and no longer be poor. So she prayed every night, without fail. And never won.

Finally, after a very long life filled with all the happiness she could expect, pain she could endure, and loving friends and family she could imagine, she quietly died. She immediately found herself before God. After thanking him for all her life's blessings, she couldn't help but ask him: "Why, God, did I never win the lottery?"

"You have to buy a ticket," He replied.

Attitude is the first priority over action. When you have the right attitude, actions that would otherwise wear you down actually make you feel empowered. I was taught that if you're attitudes right, the facts don't matter. You can tell yourself action is required to make anything work, or you can tell yourself it's not necessary. Either way you're setting unjustified parameters and limiting the LOA's ability.

The most important action is to set your attitude to the correct resonance.

^^ Agreed.

But mustn't some action accompany an attitude in order for anything to happen?

Yes but the attitude is the biggest battle to fight and the most important victory. In fact it's 99% of the battle because actions come easily from a space of joy.

In other words actions is required but the only work that is required is work on your attitude.

But to agree with you, there are actions necessary for certain manifestations. If you want to be rich, you need to start somewhere and figure out a means to earn the money, which typically means investing or working at some sort of profession. While you can use LOA to open all the doorways and ensure your success, you still have to invest the actual money or apply for the job. LOA does circumvent all other laws, but it works around them it cannot just change them. It's like the law of lift vs the law of gravity. You cannot change the law of gravity, but you can build an airplane to circumvent it.

I've heard that if your burning obsession is strong enough and you feel absolutely no doubt, then nearly no pro-activity is required at all. It sounds like you're mainly attacking this idea, and that you believe having a good attitude is important but one must be pro-active. For most people this is true, but only because they can't make their obsession broadcast strongly enough or often enough, or because they are secretly holding onto doubt.

See, we have extremely limited radar, but we tend to assume it covers the whole map. So we think, "You cannot get a job without applying for it." or worse, yet more likely, you cannot get a certain job even if you applied because you have no experience. These are the thoughts that come to mind when we consider our dream job, and we believe that we need to figure out a plan to accomplish that goal, given the parameters of our extremely limited radar.

The biggest cause of doubt is us thinking what we know is fact, and if we can't figure out precisely how to accomplish something, we can't accomplish it.

So yes, action is required, but you don't know what those actions are. How you're going to accomplish something is nearly insignificant compared to knowing what you want. The work is in figuring out what you want, what captures your heart bad enough that the desire for it spills out of you like a flood. When you find that, and you overcome your doubt that it can happen, the universe will bend over backwards for you. I've seen it happen.

This comes back to my criticism. Many, many things that people want are not 'easy' after you know what you want and do not doubt, and they become easy only by stealing the fruits of other people's efforts. If you approach it with the mindset that deciding what you want is the main thing that is necessary from you, then other people are getting bent over when "the universe" is bending over for you.

Simple real example: You decide you want to be a Senior Engineer within two years of graduating with a modestly difficult degree. You do not doubt. You network, wheels of destiny turn, you get hired into that position because of your confidence and your contacts. But your actual skills are far inadequate to support your salary. Who is supporting you? The honest, intelligent, effective guy who has spent the last ten years doing the work that generates the revenue, at half your salary.

Another example: I ran across a Discover magazine article a couple of days ago that said some things about quantum physics that are complete bullshit. Its not like there is some disagreement within the scientific community. Discover is produced by the same people who do Penthouse (or used to be anyway), and they don't care about science, they just run whatever sells. Then people who read it who don't have advanced degrees in those areas think that what they're reading is real, not made up. Creating a real, honest, popular science magazine that supports itself with sales is hard to do, it takes a lot of work. And real science takes an extraordinary amount of work, compared to any of the things that happen mostly by themselves once you decide what you want. If what you desire is the experience of success, you rarely get the real, honest success, because that's a lot harder. To get the real success, you have to explicitly want that success to be honest. And that desire involves doubt. You have to doubt what you're doing where its not entirely right, so that you can make it right. If you try to dispense with doubt, you wind up living in a disfunctional clusterfuck of a world where fabrications pass for truths. The lies are like counterfeit idea currency that steal from the people who produce truths. Science has credibility that the publishers of Discover can cash in on only because other people do real science, but that requires work by people who doubt their own thoughts and actions.

True, the best model of human progress includes a healthy amount of self-doubt regarding decision making or figuring out what you want.

For me, it honestly feels a lot better to think of myself as a published author that writes good novels rather than, say, Twilight. I do not dream of being the next Stephanie Meyer or even JK Rowling for that matter. I dream of being the next Douglas Adams or George Martin. For me, the burning desire I have is not merely to be successful, but to be an agent of positive transformation in the universe. But I understand, based purely on the sort of success I see in the world, that this attitude is not necessarily prevalent among people who use LOA.

But LOA doesn't mystically save you from bad times, either. Empires collapse no matter how little doubt the emperor had and how much he yearned for power. It's just the way of things. Growth doesn't end just because you've figured out LOA.

Omnis Dei,

You've said repeatedly in this thread that dispensing with doubt is key to LOA. Now you say that the best model of human progress requires a healthy amount of self-doubt. Why then have you been advocating LOA, and not doubting? Of course there are different kinds of things that a person can doubt. But you were talking about not doubting your ability to manifest what you want. And that's exactly what you should be doubting in many situations. The doubt, "I can not have this, this is asking for too much", is exactly what prevents your desire from driving your life into the predatory region, where the only way to satisfy the desire is to prey on other people in some subtle or not so subtle way.

But that's not true at all. Your desires themselves evolve as you explore them. Some people do manage to throw doubt away early, and they've caused a lot of havoc. I look at life from two sides, one side is purpose and the other is awareness. This coordinates with the yin-yang on many levels, but some people decide to throw away awareness in pursuit of their strategy, or limit their strategy in some way. Remember one of the basics of LOA is teachability. There comes a point in one's life practice where they realize the stuff they want isn't really what they want. And it goes back to what I've argued with you before about, which is that I believe evolution aligns with what we consider to be good, moral qualities. While unlimited variations are possible, some tactics tend to beat others, but it's not easily readable which those are and sometimes it appears as though parasitic methods are best because they find a niche and survive well enough, or even succeed in some manner. But there's something so much greater than personal desires. And when you realize that, the desire for something beyond personal success will burn inside of you to the point it cannot be ignored. You've just had your ethos transformed. Just like how negative thoughts and doubts burn away in the presence of a truly positive attitude that is willing to face them, so do parasitic methods of existence burn away before the power of a unified humanity. They will continue to operate in any way possible, and the war is eternal between light and shadow, but the power of selflessness becomes too inviting to ignore when you find your place within something bigger than yourself. Sometimes this feeling becomes damaging as well, as millions flock to violent religions and cling to nationalism. But that is a divisive force and still less powerful than a unified humanity. Celebrating differences makes you stronger.

Too many pronouns and I'm getting confused.

My observation has been that psychic power is intoxicating, and that people who get more of it tend to morally self destruct after a few decades. Hence my emphasis on honesty over confidence.

I guess we've both said what we wanted to.

If we talk again its a sure thing the moral/evolution issue will come up again though. Its central to what distinguishes your intuition from mine. As I see it, evolution can lead to heights in civilization and paranormal power, but in the end it falls down again, and later universes are like this one again, in cycles. My vision is to take it in a different direction, by willing in a way that is not compelled by evolution, so that as this reality runs its course we can create the seed for a better one. Maybe the existing cycle is OK to you. Its no longer OK with me, and I will continue working to change the whole cycle until I discover that its impossible. Evidence so far seems to be encouraging.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

One thing I am concerned about your reaction to me that I forgot to mention before when others noted it: I don't know how I projected the idea (probably my ugly cynical writing form), but I am also a very big fan of hope. It's one of the things that makes us human, after all, and hope is often the one virtue, when held tight, that not only provides the strength and patience needed during the long (oft eternal) wait for "manifestation," but also it is the strongest rope we can grasp when we need to pull ourselves out of really bad times. No, I don't lack hope, or dismiss it. I especially don't abandon it, as that would be a hellish choice indeed! I guess I just don't like seeing it presented as a tool for getting something for nothing, though. That's simply wrong, on many levels.

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No, I don't think your more positive view of hope came through in your replies, but I understand why. Manifestation without action ("getting something for nothing") seems to really irk you, and I think this is a justifiable position. Although, I do agree with Omnis Dei that manifestation without any action is possible if the desire is strong enough, I see how this could be misleading and possibly harmful to many people who don't have a full understanding of manifestation, are perhaps seeking to manifest the wrong things, or worse someone thinks they can simply use LOA with minimal effort and all their hopes and dreams will come true. There doesn't seem to be anyone else sensible and open minded presenting this viewpoint on DV, from what I've seen, so I can understand why you might come off a little strong more cynical than your actual feelings on this subject. (please correct me if I'm wrong here)

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

See, we have extremely limited radar, but we tend to assume it covers the whole map. So we think, "You cannot get a job without applying for it." or worse, yet more likely, you cannot get a certain job even if you applied because you have no experience. These are the thoughts that come to mind when we consider our dream job, and we believe that we need to figure out a plan to accomplish that goal, given the parameters of our extremely limited radar.

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I agree. There have been several times in my life when a new job opportunity literally just fell in my lap and changed the course of my life. Once I met a friend of a friend at a bar, and completely drunk convinced her to hire me, although I had zero experience. The next day I showed up for what I thought was an interview, but she had already given me the job and was bringing me in to fill new hire paperwork. Within a few months I received two promotions; within six months the company was paying for me to move from Florida to California and open a new store. I can't imagine how different my life would be and what amazing experiences I would be without had I not been open to that opportunity that night at the bar.

However, I think what you're getting at here is less about not acting and more about an openness to new opportunities that may present themselves in novel and unexpected ways. During the time before this job presented itself, I was networking and applying to jobs, but I was also open to unexpected opportunities. I think it is a good practice to work hard and be proactive to achieve what you want, while at the same time being ready for a manifestation outside your realm of influence.

I really like the different opinions being represented here. This is a good talk on multiple levels from many different vantages points so we can get to the heart of the matter. The power of LOA feels elusive, almost. I've heard when you chase the world, it runs from you, when you run from the world, it chases you. When you allow it, it allows you. I agree that humanity goes up and down in cycles. As a whole nature cannot be intelligently designed. It thrives most off chaos, random variation with one type of selection, whether or not that idea can fit in the room. This doesn't mean we can't designate our own ethos as a people. But I don't do it because I'm clever on objective morals, I do it because I'm wise on what the viable method really is. I believe the most viable method for me is what gives me the greatest possible feeling of happiness because we're structured to seek happiness. I believe all evil is evil because it makes you feel bad, at the end of the day, and we as a culture wouldn't teach the same morals if they weren't trying to tell us about long-term success rather than short term. We can always try harder next time, that's no problem. But the cycles are continuing so we can try better. Because things change so drastically, each and every time is an attempt to try better.

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Originally Posted by hermine_hesse

No, I don't think your more positive view of hope came through in your replies, but I understand why. Manifestation without action ("getting something for nothing") seems to really irk you, and I think this is a justifiable position. Although, I do agree with Omnis Dei that manifestation without any action is possible if the desire is strong enough, I see how this could be misleading and possibly harmful to many people who don't have a full understanding of manifestation, are perhaps seeking to manifest the wrong things, or worse someone thinks they can simply use LOA with minimal effort and all their hopes and dreams will come true. There doesn't seem to be anyone else sensible and open minded presenting this viewpoint on DV, from what I've seen, so I can understand why you might come off a little strong more cynical than your actual feelings on this subject. (please correct me if I'm wrong here)

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Once again, you pegged me exactly Hermine ... I was "irked," and feeling a bit alone in my thoughts, and hadn't really noticed either emotion! Have we met? ;)

I don't see it as getting "something for nothing". The LOA only talks about attracting events into your life. What you do with them is whats important. A great opportunity can come to you, but if you aren't ready you shy away from it.

The "work" in the LOA is purely inner work. Self discovery, healing, accepting and all that.

^^ I sure can't argue with any of that, Juroara!

We've argued about the 'something for nothing' thoughts before. In a way everything we get is for nothing. The sun shines. Plants collect the energy. We eat the plants. Its all 'free'. I think that the 'figs don't grow on thistles' analogy might be a little better. People want goods and services, so someone has to create that stuff.

I simply want to love my work, not escape it entirely. I want to escape tedious wastes of time and parasites. I want to be free to do what I love to do without giving someone else most of the spoils.

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

I simply want to love my work, not escape it entirely. I want to escape tedious wastes of time and parasites. I want to be free to do what I love to do without giving someone else most of the spoils.

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In my experience, young people have that thought. Then after a few jobs they give it up, or go into denial, and/or hope that by making the best of the boring, parasite laden jobs that are available, the next generation will have a chance at work happiness. I know that sounds negative, but hunting/scavenging isn't a bed of roses as it is, and now most of us still have our hunter/scavenger instincts but are trapped all day in little fabric boxes. Though its better for many people depending on their personalities, there's an almost thermodynamic tendency for work misery to spread out evenly, because people flock to the 'good' jobs which drives the wages down and gives the people who gain control of access to those jobs more leverage be more abusive.

I agree its a good thought though.

Charming picture.

I know, I've watched myself get distracted and forget what I really want. It's easy to lose sight of your dreams or to succumb to doubt and hide away from them. I am hoping to avoid letting this happen again.

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

I simply want to love my work, not escape it entirely. I want to escape tedious wastes of time and parasites. I want to be free to do what I love to do without giving someone else most of the spoils.

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I still feel this way, too, but I'm also still discovering what it is I love to do. I had a turning point this year, when I turned down a job with a really great salary, but knew I would be doing something I didn't enjoy, and working long hours where I might not be able to even enjoy leisure time in the beautiful, new city I had just moved to.

oh job love? blah, im past that

Its a lie that theres supposed to be some magical job out there im supposed to love doing the rest of my life, as if. Screw all jobs. The only thing I love doing is being myself.

I believe if you have the right attitude you can find a way to feed yourself that does not require you ever feel leeched, bored or worn out. That doesn't necessarily mean you'll find a job that escapes these qualities, it means your attitude will be incapable of becoming bored or worn out because of an intense love for life.

I'm starting at the Human Society on monday and it's a bitch of a job. Lot's of poop cleaning, bad smells, angry dogs, etc. But I already love some of those dogs, too. And my wage comes from a non-profit, I'm not being leeched to make anyone rich, my job is being funded to help alleviate suffering. It's a part time job which is fine by me. A large salary was never a major desire of mine. I've dreamed of having Capital, sure, but not money. The difference being that I've often dreamed of all the humanitarian projects I would go for if I could fund them, but I never envisioned myself needing to afford more than a modest home and two vacations a year. Possessions are of little interest to me. For me, a part time job alleviating suffering is ideal. It gives me time. Whether I spend that time enjoying myself being a young jackass or churning out art is my business because I can feed myself so there's not pressure to be an artist but I have the availability to do so. And this is also ideal, the suffering is removed from my art and I'm free to create, to churn out pages and pages when my muse strikes especially hard, or simply write a poem while sitting on the corner outside the cafe, enjoying the weather and chatting up the occasional friend that passes by.

I couldn't ask for a better life. There are a few dreams left unfulfilled: I want to love myself even harder than I do now, I want to love another person just as hard as I envision loving myself (and vice versa), I want to publish a book series, I want to be able to record music in my basement (possession related, I know), I want to travel to a different place or country every year, go to burning man every year, go backpacking every year, I want to set the framework in my valley so it could switch over to a self-sustainable community free of monetary and oil dependency, I want to have a child and watch him/her grow up into a greater badass than I could possibly imagine, and there's several other things on top of that.

Right now the life I live is very enjoyable, but it's still easy for me to conclude it's not complete. This conclusion causes me, no matter how happy I feel right now, to resist the present moment in some way. I'm not there yet, therefore I carry the attitude that I can't have total peace yet. This is where I combine buddhism with LOA. This is the precise place where the bridge is built, with the simple question, "Why wait for uncertainties to become certainties in order to be completely happy?" Time changes all things (impermanence). Some of these things will get better (my success) and some will get worse (my youth). Even when I do accomplish all my dreams, I'll be older, generally in more pain and past the point of being able to enjoy my youth as well as I can right now. So time is a trade, and time might heal all wounds but it does not fix any desire.

I don't know if what I want, I will accomplish, but the Buddha does not truly tell you that desire causes suffering. He taught attachment causes suffering. I live as though I have already accomplished all my dreams because I can't truly say whether I will accomplish them or not. But I live like I will. I live like I am at one stage of a blooming flower. Blooming is encoded in its DNA. It might get cut short of this destiny, but why worry about such uncertainties? It's job is to follow its DNA. Nothing more. My "blooming" is to see all the dreams I envision manifest. But I can't say that the bloom is better than the life of the flower before it bloomed. Each stage is as precious and sacred as the next. I know I'll bloom. I mean anything could happen to stop me, my flower could be cut down at any moment. But because blooming is encoded in my DNA, I am essentially already bloomed.

To speak more practically, in my ideal attitude (some days I align closer to it than others) I have already accomplished everything I want, I simply haven't unwrapped the presents yet. This attitude is ideal not because of LOA and because it will make these presents actually come into my life even though I have no evidence that they will. That's not the point. The point is thinking my life is incomplete causes me to surrender a piece of happiness to the future, to a time where I'll have to trade more youth, more things I can be grateful of having now, for that success. By keeping the attitude that I already have everything I want, I am free to enjoy the present moment to the fullest. By believing in LOA, I save myself from discouragement that I don't deserve to be happy until I actually work to accomplish those things, because it enables me to believe that the greatest work I can do is to maintain the attitude that I already have them.

“Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present.” Marcus Aurelius

I agree that its good to be able to accept ambiguity, rather than trying to harden everything into facts. And its true that living in the future would mean not being as aware in the present, and the imagined future is never real anyway. Both of those things are different though from telling yourself that you have what you want. Maybe telling yourself that makes the other things easier, and maybe you regard it as a net gain for you personally, but it also comes with a not insignificant penalty, which is what I was trying to say earlier.

I was content for many years earning less than $15K a year. Now I have children, which was to at least some extent fated. But I can't support them on $15K per year, and I have little savings from the previous years, so I can't live where they live because I can't afford a house in a decent school district where I can find better work. (I had higher paying drone warfare related work for a few years where they are, but it involved murdering people by proxy, and at some point I couldn't go any further with that.) So they're growing up without a dad except on holidays. Had I been less content earlier, I might be able to be a lot better parent now. Discontent is a kind of pain. Sometimes it can be unhelpful, but sometimes it is there to tell you that what you're doing isn't working out well for the long term.

In any case, I wish you well with the dog care gig. I love dogs, and hope to be able to have one again some day.

^^ That is a very important point, Shadowofwind, and one that might fly in the face of the whole LOA/manifestation deal ... After all, you're living as well as you can, no doubt with clear desires now that you have kids, and you did the right thing by stepping away from drone work ... Yet there you are, obliged to be separated from your family. Should that be?

Is LOA perhaps not time-sensitive, and your time of fulfilled desire will come, eventually? Or is it that you truly must add something to the formula, and simply wait for that time while paying your dues?

I'm not being facetious; I truly believe you've noted an important facet to the "manifestation" of this theory, and I'm curious about how LOA deals with it...

Sageous,

As I suggested earlier, I think part of my misfortune is the collective misfortune of humanity, I can't completely separate my fate from everyone else's. I accept that. Another way of saying this, though I don't know if it sounds the same, is that fate is fucking me over on purpose because this is the only effective way to communicate that there's a real, cosmic size problem that needs addressed, that I can't just go off into my own little "I've got mine" corner with my family and let the collective soul rot. I accept that too. Of course in another way I don't accept it, but that not accepting is another way of saying yes I get the message, and am committed to what it implies. Of course the way in which I respond my be inept, ineffective, and largely delusional, but I will nevertheless respond the best I can.

^^ So if I understand you correctly, manifestation has a sort of "Big Picture" corollary attached to it? That actually makes a lot of sense to me.

... and please forgive if we've already had this conversation here. (if we haven't, though, I hope Omnis is still following; I'd love to get his take as well...)

Sageous,

This is basically the same confusion I have with a lot of things. For example, I have malice, I enjoy hurting people. That isn't all I am of course, but its definitely in there. I would like to change it, because I do care about people also. Yet, other people have malice too, and I can't change them. And other people are a part of me, I'm sure of this, I feel it and that's how all this shared thought stuff works. In some significant sense my malice is their malice. So in what sense can I change myself if I can't change them? I think that most if not all other people have this problem too, even if their way of thinking about identity doesn't reveal it as a problem. There's a failure of metaphor here. If I had an adequate appreciation of what kind of thing identity is, then there would be no problem. There would still be limitations I think, but without the counterproductive effort that follows from the confusion.

[Part of the answer here is that malice isn't a substance, its love expressed through or qualified by a kind of physical condition. But this physical condition is to a significant extent shared also, for example our genome, like I mentioned in the 'using dream' thread.]

I think it's important I distinguish between pretending you have something already, and setting your attitude to having it. There's a difference between having the attitude that it's a certainty vs acting as if it's already there. I have the attitude that I will have money to support myself, but I don't go out buying everything I can't currently afford.

Essentially you end up removing the blockages between you and actions that would actually be conducive to obtaining what you want. They feel like play, rather than work, because you have no doubt in the outcome. And I'm sure you realize but we perform much better when we're at play rather than when we attach particular significance. At least I always have.

I'm perfectly content and it's difficult to explain why. I'm both content that all my desires will manifest, but also with knowledge that they don't actually have to manifest at all. This puts me in the best position to manifest them. I can only be content with my pursuit of them, and doubt appears to be little more than an obstacle I would prefer not to deal with. I used doubt to discover what I want, and as I experience life from time to time I'll come back to doubt. Doubt has also enabled me to work on proper LOA technique as my original attempts to blind myself from bad feelings and just smile all the time fell way to a much more powerful technique, absolving bad feelings through impartial witnessing of them. Doubt enables me to figure out the best action I can think of, but once I have the action, doubt becomes little more than an inhibitor. The purpose of doubt is to refine the practice, not stop it completely. While intellectually I understand that the future is uncertain, I'm a magician. We play with our beliefs because we understand that our beliefs create the world. I suppose another term for this would be idealist, only it's free of expectation. Or at least the expectations are free of attachment.

For instance I have a girl I'm in love with. How do I deal with this ridiculously painful desire, this world I've entered full of dramatic levels of doubt? I don't pretend and act as though we're already together. What is needed is an attitude adjustment, I carry the attitude that allows me to love her free from suffering over the details of the situation. That's all LOA comes down to, to me, carrying the attitude that alleviates suffering the most, understanding that a positive attitude will also alleviate problems the best. But it's important to remember what your dreams are and retain focus on them, too. I want children, too, so 15k a year for me won't do it. I'm simply waiting to have kids until after I have another source of income.

Hey'''' You sound like a Kevin Trudeau man''''
Your post is a nice synthesized version of Your wish is your command'
I printed out your stuff and read it in the morning after meditation.Then listen
to Kevins CD,s in the Car' I think the best info on L.O.A comes from the society,s
Those guys know what there talking about'

Hey'''' You sound like a Kevin Trudeau man''''
Your post is a nice synthesized version of Your wish is your command'
I printed out your stuff and read it in the morning after meditation.Then listen
to Kevins CD,s in the Car' I think the best info on L.O.A comes from the society,s
Those guys know what there talking about'

Hey'''' You sound like a Kevin Trudeau man''''
Your post is a nice synthesized version of Your wish is your command'
I printed out your stuff and read it in the morning after meditation.Then listen
to Kevins CD,s in the Car' I think the best info on L.O.A comes from the society,s
Those guys know what there talking about':)

I don't know about Trudeau. I mean, his CDs provided a lot of good information that has helped me and others a lot. Anyone it does not appear to be helping is not following it correctly. One of my friends focuses on the negative, another one has no teachability. They were the ones that introduced Trudeau to me, and while my life has been getting progressively better theirs' remains the same. But the guy also has a very shady history. He states very early in his tapes that you should be careful who you get your information from, and not to trust people that got rich by telling others how to get rich. However, he has a history of fraud, larceny, holding a high position in a pyramid scheme and making false allegations against the FDA and Pharmaceutical Companies. Honestly if it was just the last part, I wouldn't think twice, big Pharma and the FDA are corrupt as fuck but have so much power it's nearly impossible to prove in a courtroom. However combined with his association with pyramid schemes and the fact that he stole social security numbers from people, he seems to lack a certain integrity I'd like to see more of from someone claiming to be some sort of LOA guru. Just because he didn't make his millions telling people how to make millions doesn't mean that his books about natural cures "they" don't want you to know about are anything less than a scam.

Hey thanks for your reply":)
I often wondered if that CD (YOUR WISH IS YOUR COMMAND) was in the mountains of Switzerland or around at his place with a few of his mates lol
Yes I hear he has a reputation,well never the less the info sounds very practical,especially the concept about Bruce Lee and the one punch'
Maybe the L.O.A is all about staying with the basics and building a strong foundation.

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Maybe the L.O.A is all about staying with the basics and building a strong foundation.

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Or maybe the LOA is just another fantasy of power for the powerless, getting good things without earning them, or having happiness thrust upon you rather than getting out of bed and finding it yourself.

If that is so, then it is also a perfect subject for charlatans seeking to get rich (ironically slowly and methodically, BTW) by fueling these fantasies with remarkably obvious advice bathed thickly in empty positive reinforcement, and then feeding monetarily on the desperate, the lazy, or the hopelessly deluded.

Getting rich quick, transcendental meditation, being "saved" by God, and even many aspects of lucid dreaming, are just a few of the fantasies the powerless and lazy hold, and you can be sure there will be vultures to feed off them; LOA is definitely in that club, I think.

Now don't get me wrong: I'm a big fan of LD'ing, transcendental events, even some aspects of LOA. But I don't for a minute harbor an assumption that the very big rewards each of those promises can be had by buying a video or a book; neither should you, or any reasonable person. Only hard work and real changes to your natural mindset will get you there -- too bad the charlatans never say that bit.

Well with the glory of pirating you don't have to spend money to get the information, so you can see for yourself if it's valid. I personally believe LOA is real, but I believe it's also easy to appear to teach LOA without actually teaching it. I've had to read a lot of different sources of information in a lot of different areas for me to get a grasp on what it actually is, and steady my heart about things. That is to say it's easy to get wound up into illogical mindsets by the pep-rally effect used to sell you garbage. It's important to remain skeptical, and I still remain skeptical of LOA even though now I use it every single day. I'm not required to believe it's truth. Objective truth is not Magic. Magic is shaping your inner world in order to change your outer world, and the inner world all comes down to beliefs.

I'm not sure if you're trying to imply that practicing LOA is the lazy way to get what you want, but it's not. It's simply an adjustment in priorities. The most important action, before all other actions, is to properly direct your attitude. Adjusting your attitude to where you want it to be is the most important thing you can possibly do. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do other things, but those things will feel like play rather than work once you can properly adjust your attitude. And why the fuck not enjoy life? You act like suffering is the only way to achieve anything.

^^ When did I ever say a word about suffering, O.P.?

Do you consider all the research and mental adjustment you did to be suffering? I wouldn't. Please don't put words into my mouth, I'm spewing enough of them as it is!

I'm all for positive thinking and facing life with joy rather than anger; sorry that the downbeat nature of my above post implied otherwise. It's the charlatans I have a problem with; not the core of the subjects, or the sincere practitioners of the subjects. I hope you will understand that.

Also, for what it's worth I'm not sure that you're actually practicing LOA as it is popularly known; I think you're doing something much more advanced, with a healthier mindset and a much different set of expectations. That is, of course, a very good thing.

Has anyone read (EVOLVE YOUR BRAIN) THE SCIENCE OF CHANGING YOUR MIND - by JOE DISPENZA FROM What the Bleep fame"
or Buce Lipton (the new biology) or even the DVD called Quantum Communication by David Sereda?
It would appear as i understand it that the L.O.A has crossed over into these realms of science and would need a certain mindset to appreciate their content.
Of course the Yogis would called these powers of manifesting (siddhis) and would discourage them from being used until a certain amount of metaphysical maturity has been reached.
When I have mentioned this to some people they don.t have a clue what Im talking about so I can see that It is a refined path of study and personal evolution. Just a few thoughts''''''
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