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    Thread: Spiritual Masters that aren't Swindlers and Frauds

    1. #26
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      Dannon Oneironaut:

      If what he did didn't contract his teachings, and if it led to his seduction and insanity, then that would seem to me to say something about the nature of his teachings. If he "saw no reason not to" enjoy living like a rock star, and it corrupted him, then that doesn't make him a hypocrite, but it does make him mistaken about there being no reason not to live like that. And if it was a mistake, then teaching that view to his followers was a mistake also. And teaching that view was a pretty big part of what he was about.

      I'm not sure I believe that its possible for it to have been bad for him and good for the planet. Who he was is what he brought to the planet, for both good and ill. The guru and his student are two sides of the same dynamic.

      I'm not saying he didn't have power or a kind of understanding, and I don't think that it necessarily makes sense to try to evaluate whether his life was a net positive or negative. Certainly there is good in everything. But bullshit is bullshit, and certainly there was an awful lot of bullshit there along with everything else.

      Somewhat separately, I think that most conspiracy theories about the CIA or other US government agencies misunderstand their nature. The CIA is a bad organization, but it doesn't have much power domestically, and it has a lot less power overseas than is commonly imagined. People speak of "the government" in a personified way, as if it has an agenda and some kind of nefarious plan. Actually its a lot of semi-incompetent careerist bureaucrats struggling to get a better suck at the giant tax tit, and they're pretty much like everyone else in more ways than not. I used to work in an evil-looking building where alien artifacts are dealt with, according to what I read on the internet, and I had an above top secret clearance. It doesn't mean anything, its not really like that. The point I'm getting at is I think the way people view this sort of thing is a projection. Counter-culture spiritual people can't accept ownership of the problems in their own community, so they project things onto the CIA or whoever. But its not about them, its about us, and I think we need to deal with what's ours to deal with.

      I lived near Albany and Corvallis for a long time. Have some friends near Portland. I did farm work, landscaping, and restaurant work in high school and college, but could never even get an interview in Oregon in the years after I graduated. Otherwise I would not have left, and would have gone back.
      Last edited by shadowofwind; 03-15-2013 at 08:04 AM.

    2. #27
      Hungry Dannon Oneironaut's Avatar
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      There is something about Osho that transcends duality in my opinion. One cannot say this or that with any conviction. For example, did it not work? What was it that lead to his insanity? Was it being a flamboyant guru? Did he really become insane? Or was he always insane? Or merely pretending to be insane? Or neither? All we can have are empty opinions. (BTW, I only like his teachings from before he came to America, those were genuine teachings. I stopped being interested when he talked about Zorba the Buddha and the Rebel and the 'new man', he was reading too much Neitche)
      I agree with what you say about the government, it is a good example of an empty concept. However, he certainly was on the government's tip, namely the FBI and the CIA. This is not a conspiracy theory. He went on a world tour and was arrested in every country because the CIA influence. This is fact. He turned it into a publicity thing.

    3. #28
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    4. #29
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      My husband is into the spiritual side of things a lot more than me - and he really likes:

      Shinzen Young

      When typing his name into youtube - I came up with a video on OBE.
      It is quite bad quality and bit hard to listen to - and is a bit repetitive.
      What he seems to stress, is, that in that state of consciousness there is the potential to relatively easily enter what he calls witness consciousness - an equanimity - the potential to separate oneself from the drags of your worries, ego - whatever.

      Seems he says meditation is the way to systematically induce this inherent ability - like it also happens when you are in intense danger - time slowing down.
      He says it is natural - something inherent in our bodily make-up - even says animals do it all the time.
      Us being hindered by our addiction to "thinking".

      He says it is the real significance of the experience to unravel the connection between the body and the mind - liberate the mind.

      Here we go:



      I also came across criticism of his person.

      What do you people think of him?
      Thanks in advance!

    5. #30
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      ^^ Your husband has good taste!

      Aside from what Young might mention in the video, Vipassana meditation is part-and-parcel to the kind of self-awareness that drives lucid dreaming.

      Regarding that "natural" awareness he descibes in the video, keep in mind that that is only the tip of the iceberg of Vipassana's non- dual point of view. Though his example is a good start, though in my opinion only considers OBE from a "perspective" and not active point of view, it only illustrates the beginning of a Vipassana practitioner's journey.
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    7. #32
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      Russel Brand
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      ya gwan fok wid de Baron? ye gotta nodda ting comin. (Formerly known as Baking Nomad.)

    8. #33
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      Mr Deity

      But to be serious Krishnamurti is probably the closest thing I can think of, but I don't think he would have liked being called a spiritual master. People have this idea that spiritual teachers have their shit together. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. The fucked up things they do in their personal lives don't necessarily negate their teachings, but it does show that those teachings are not some kind of magic pill that if swallowed protects you from fucking up. There is no magic pill. The sooner you realize that the sooner you can actual begin to make real progress spiritually.
      157 is a prime number. The next prime is 163 and the previous prime is 151, which with 157 form a sexy prime triplet. Taking the arithmetic mean of those primes yields 157, thus it is a balanced prime.

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    9. #34
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      I really like what Ramana Maharshi had to say. Here's one video of things he talked about.



      I especially like what he says about mind and doubt and living in the heart: "Investigate what the mind is, and it will disappear. There is no such thing as mind apart from thought. There is no use removing doubts, if we clear one doubt another arises and there will be no end of doubts. All doubts will cease only when the doubter and his source have been found. Seek for the source of the doubter and you will find that he is really non-existent. Doubter ceasing, doubts will cease."

    10. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by StonedApe View Post
      Mr Deity

      But to be serious Krishnamurti is probably the closest thing I can think of, but I don't think he would have liked being called a spiritual master. People have this idea that spiritual teachers have their shit together. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. The fucked up things they do in their personal lives don't necessarily negate their teachings, but it does show that those teachings are not some kind of magic pill that if swallowed protects you from fucking up. There is no magic pill. The sooner you realize that the sooner you can actual begin to make real progress spiritually.
      Buddha said, "Wisdom in the mouth of a fool is still wisdom, just as gold is still gold whether in a leather sack or an ornately carved box."
      ya gwan fok wid de Baron? ye gotta nodda ting comin. (Formerly known as Baking Nomad.)

    11. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by WakingNomad View Post
      Buddha said, "Wisdom in the mouth of a fool is still wisdom, just as gold is still gold whether in a leather sack or an ornately carved box."
      Yeah, but the ornately carved box can hold your stuff!

    12. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by WakingNomad View Post
      Buddha said, "Wisdom in the mouth of a fool is still wisdom, just as gold is still gold whether in a leather sack or an ornately carved box."
      Do not trust something is gold merely because of the package it comes in, is something he's basically said as well. One can only trust information based on the fruit yielded by that information's source. In other words, pay attention to people who are good at what you want to be good at and have that which you want to have. If someone basks in a state of happiness you're envious of, how can you call them a fool?

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    13. #38
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      Nice to see you post again.

      Quote Originally Posted by Original Poster View Post
      If someone basks in a state of happiness you're envious of, how can you call them a fool?
      I can without hesitation call a happy person a fool. What if a man sucking his own blood, or someone else's is basking in happiness? But if I'm envious of them, then I'm twice the fool.

      In any case, we can both agree that fruit tends not to grow on thistles, that the foibles of ostensibly great teachers usually do show us something.

    14. #39
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      You're bringing complexity to something I was simplifying and I appreciate that. But I'm also not using envy in a negative way, envy gives me the desire to be more like someone and thus listen more to what they have to say. I would rather listen to someone I desire to be more like than someone who claims any other type of authority on a subject. That's all I'm saying.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    15. #40
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      Sorry If im interupt in something here now. But Jiddu Krishnamurti is one legit teacher! He explains the most simple things in a hole new way. I just love it.
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    16. #41
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      I started out with Wayne Dyer by accident after I left contemporary Christianity looking for what I was after..

      I was watching tv and Wayne Dyer comes on in a PBS presentation on a Friday evening. I looked at that and said something like "WTF, who the hell is this new age balding dude ?"..and promptly flipped to another channel

      Saturday afternoon was the same story after work. "OMG not this guy again"...flipped the channel yet again

      Sunday evening I was beat tired. Sat in the chair in front of the tv already playing. Programs changed and... you guessed heres Wayne Dyer again.
      This time I didn't have the remote and was too tired and lazy to go find it, so I watched. By the end of the program I was on the edge of the seat listening and seeing what he was talking about inside myself and my experience.

      Went on from him to reading of Nisargadatta Maharaj, then to Dzogchen in the writings of Chyogal Namkai Norbu, to Shri Ramana Maharshi, RamDass , Neem Karoli Baba, and a seemingly endless list of others of all religions in all time frames. Seeing what each was saying inside myself and my own experience, which is the key to determining if the mesaage is based in truth or not.



      The water from the well is water from the well..

      Regardless of the bucket that carries it up from the depths..

      Remember..

      The bucket itself cannot quench your thirst..

      And..

      A bucket without holes carries more water..

      Without such a wasteful mess..

      But in the end..

      A bucket, is a bucket, is a bucket...

      Its the water one is after

      Signature work courtesy of Cloud

    17. #42
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      My introduction to Buddhism came from the guy that wrote Surfing the Himalayas. I had been reading Manly P Hall and when I started Snowboarding to Nirvana I peaked and interest in Buddhism. I looked up Buddhist Cosmology and had a prolific click as I saw Buddhism explain, in completeness, all of the details beyond the veil that all of Manly P Hall's research could barely collect a few pieces of. If not for Manly P Hall's research, however, I would have taken Buddhist Cosmology with a grain of salt. Only both combined could provide insight.

      Later I discovered that the author of Surfing the Himalayas was a total fraud. But he still opened me up to Buddhism so that I could go on to read from more insightful eastern philosophers.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    18. #43
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      Quote Originally Posted by NonDualistic View Post
      Seeing what each was saying inside myself and my own experience, which is the key to determining if the mesaage is based in truth or not.
      I think one thing to watch out for here is that since we are all psychically connected, you can often find their 'truths' inside of yourself even when they're mostly bullshit. Lots of people get trapped by this, if they find 'internal' experiential confirmation they trust it unquestionably.

      Quote Originally Posted by Original Poster View Post
      I had been reading Manly P Hall and when I started Snowboarding to Nirvana I peaked and interest in Buddhism. I looked up Buddhist Cosmology and had a prolific click as I saw Buddhism explain, in completeness, all of the details beyond the veil that all of Manly P Hall's research could barely collect a few pieces of. If not for Manly P Hall's research, however, I would have taken Buddhist Cosmology with a grain of salt. Only both combined could provide insight.
      I bought and attempted to read "Secret Teachings of All Ages" a few months ago. I thought it was terrible, almost utter bullshit. But yeah, even shit has a lot of food value if you can kill the microbes and you don't have anything else to eat. For instance, I keep recommending Ramana Maharshi to people even though I think his teaching doesn't lead to where he claims it leads. The movement of identity it involves is at least partially real, because it does something.

    19. #44
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      Manly P Hall's conclusions aren't always perfectly apt (like his connection between Sir Francis Bacon and Shakespeare, for example) but really? Utter bullshit? He revealed Christ's sun god connection before Zeitgeist ever popularized it (as in circa 1920s). Did you read anything he wrote on Hermeticism? On Pythagoras? On the Mysteries? Damn dude, that's a pretty provocative opinion. Wait, I remember you now, were you the one that claimed an infallible authority over esoteric knowledge because you can read greek?

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    20. #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by Original Poster View Post
      Wait, I remember you now, were you the one that claimed an infallible authority over esoteric knowledge because you can read greek?
      No, that was tsiouz. My experience with him was pretty much the same as yours. Remarkable that you and I exchanged many dozens of posts and you can't remember who I am.

      Yeah I read much of Hall's stuff on Pythagoras, Hermeticism, and mysteries. Part of the problem is I had already read other Theosophists extensively, such as Blavatsky's Secret Doctrine and Isis Unveiled, Percival's Thinking and Destiny, which I read several times, and other things like Steiner's Theosophy or Max Heindel's Rosicrucian Cosmo Conception. They all draw from many of the same sources, and I spent many years sorting out what might be real and what is clearly not. So by the time I read Hall, I was already pretty close to the subject. Plus I have an extensive scientific background, so when an esotericist makes scientific claims those errors are often fairly obvious to me too. I'm not suggesting Hall didn't do anything of value for anyone, I was just shocked at how bad it was from my standpoint, since several people had recommended it. Your background is different from mine obviously, so different things stand out.

    21. #46
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      Oh no, I actually understand that. But I still consider Hall a pioneer. Keep in mind a lot of his claims reflect the era he wrote in. We're on the same page again, I don't dismiss Freud as bullshit but of course we have also moved passed his insights in modern psychology.

      And sorry, I remember your name and I remember having lengthy discussions with you but I can't sort out what, specifically you advocated compared to other participants. I remember you being quite a bit more intelligible and coherent than tsiouz, though.
      Last edited by Original Poster; 01-18-2014 at 12:55 AM.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    22. #47
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      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      I think one thing to watch out for here is that since we are all psychically connected, you can often find their 'truths' inside of yourself even when they're mostly bullshit. Lots of people get trapped by this, if they find 'internal' experiential confirmation they trust it unquestionably.
      Seeing or finding, is probably the wrong choice of words, "tasting" first hand what they are talking about would be a better descriptive term. People can talk of apples and oranges, but unless you taste one you really only have assumptions and heresay to go on. If someone tells you an apple tastes like an orange, if you have tasted them both, you can immediately tell he does not really know what he is talking about.

      So, if one does not know the taste first hand, it is good advice to be wary and maybe shop around to see what everyone else is saying on the subject too so as to find the differences and similarities and go from there until one does taste for themselves.

      One thing is for sure, if someone that is teaching comes out wanting something from you, or says "my way is the only way", well then red flags should be springing up everywhere..

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