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    Thread: Do your pets see things in the corner?

    1. #26
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      ^^ Well, I wouldn't call citing an opinion piece from Psycholgy Today and a fairly loose interpretation about science confirming that animals have consciousness (which I already said I'm fine with) as proof that all animals are self-aware, but at least you cited something; thanks!

      Yes, I would certainly accept that many primates, cetaceans (whales & dolphins), and maybe a few other select species might have some order of self-awareness, and that dogs are pretty smart. But when you start handing self-awareness to animals just because their behavior is more complex than we had originally (and arrogantly) assumed, well, that is sort of wishful thinking... which is fine, I suppose, but still a little removed from anouncing that "these things have been proven."

      I'm an old guy, and might be a bit too bound to proven facts of the past, but I think I'll be sticking to my "opinion" for now -- at least until a dog trots up and tells me otherwise!

      Sorry also for the "nonsense" bit; that was rude.

    2. #27
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      It's fine, debates can get heated but what would be the fun if them if that didn't happen?

      I just think it would be hard for an animal to not be sentient given the things they experience. They move, so they must at least be aware of their body. They react, so they must be aware of their mind. I can't wrap my mind around how they could use both of these things and still not understand the concept of the self. I suppose they wouldn't give it very much thought, if any at all, but how could they not even know about it? Now that I think about it, our disagreement might be because we have different definitions of sentience....
      Birds of the night..

    3. #28
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      ^^ ... I think we do.

      Sentience, self-awareness, is a cognitive knowledge that "I exist." That knowledge includes an affirmation not only of one's existence, but also of one's past, and that one will one day be dead.

      A non-sentient being can certainly be aware of its body so that it can move, eat, reproduce, and defend itself (or attack prey). Indeed most animals seem to have a far greater awareness of their bodies -- and their surroundings -- than humans can even imagine. However this awareness is not sentience, but motor and sensory activity. Just as ypu can move your arms, or walk, or eat, etc, without having to consciously manipulate the specific muscles making do these things, so does an animal complete their tasks without needing to think about them.

    4. #29
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
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      Thinking has nothing to do with being conscious, or rather, being aware. You can become AWARE of your THOUGHTS because your thoughts are NOT your awareness. Animals don't need to think to be self-aware (but yes they think!). Trees don't need to think to be aware (plants know which roots are theirs and which are not).

      The reason why this discussion is so hard for humans, is because we aren't just self-aware. We are self-aware that we are self-aware. (I am that I am!). How can we know if any other creature has that capacity, if we can't even translate its squeaking and squawking?

      And...this discussion is completely off topic!

    5. #30
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      ^^ What he said.

    6. #31
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      Ya we are getting a bit off topic, but I actually agree with you I now that I understand what you are saying Sageous. I feel like an idiot now
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      Birds of the night..

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