How would one go about describing them ?.
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How would one go about describing them ?.
Well, for the most part, I pretty much see exactly the same colors, but in a Sci-fi, a white robe is a white I never see in real life, so if that counts...... :DQuote:
Originally posted by dreamboat
How would one go about describing them ?.
It is scientifically impossible to see new colors in your dreams. Try imagining a new color, right now. Can't?
Indeed.
I did dream of a new colour once but on awakening I could not visualize it. Makes me think that it was just an "idea of a new colour". Though I could have sworn it was new in the dream.
What did this color look like, if it exists? http://img161.echo.cx/img161/6136/spit8nv.gif :shakehead2:
This is what is Bugging me. In the dream it truly was a "new colour" but in 'real' life I have no way of describing it.
Well, was it on the blue side, yellow, green, or red? There are many colors in the world. It could have been tan, peach, turquiose, gold, silver, etc. Was it kind of on the brown side, slightly?
I agree with Wasup!
Maybe it was just a mish mash of various shades which I believed to be a new colour. Either the dream was Flawed or it really was a genuine experience.
Yeah...I kind of agree that there aren't any really unique colors in LDs, & I've been doing them everyday for 14 years, so I am a bit experienced..
Then this would only go to show that Lucid Dreaming has it's limitations.
Not really. It is only that you cannot imagine a never-seen color. But you can imagine alot more, & whatever you can imagine will happen in a LD, like enhancing the difficulty on a Video Game, Bobbing for carmel apples in a bowl of sprite, flying, & more!http://img161.echo.cx/img161/3449/stickjumpgirl9sj.gif
Mmmmmmmmm. Well maybe. I am still pondering on this one. Maybe out of our normal frequency range. ie considering sound as an example. Ok, I'm shooting in the dark now. However it is a little disappointing that we are limited to our own reflections of true life experiences and cannot really experience anything truly 'Outside of Ourselves" in Lucids. Maybe I will go with OOBES instead.
To see a new colour, you have to start with a new primary colour. However, it would be impossible for us to see this colour anyway, because the eye is sensitive to mixtures of red, green and blue light. The reason red, green, and blue are primary colours is because these are the ones evolution chooses as primary colours. We are never going to see a new colour in real life, because we can't. It's impossible
Isn't that just what colour's are anyway? If you ask someone to define 'red,' you can't really... you can use emotions perhaps. To me colours are really just an idea. Maybe you can imagine a new colour. But that's like asking a blind person to dream about red, but maybe even worse.Quote:
Originally posted by dreamboat+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dreamboat)</div>If we could see a bigger range of the light spectrum, then we could have a new primary colours for something like x-ray. Our new primary colour would be 'x-ray.' What does that look like anyway?Quote:
Maybe out of our normal frequency range[/b]
<!--QuoteBegin-dreamboat
Makes me think that it was just an \"idea of a new colour\"
EDIT: My thoughts now are, what made colours "red, green, and blue." Aren't colours just ideas inside our brain that are sensitive to light wavelengths? They don't really exist in the real world as colours then, do they? So to see a new colour, the brain would have to have another system for it, and i'd bet that's not something we can just easily imagine up with a bit of mediation; it would be too complex, not just an idea, but an entire system of the brain dedicated to making us see colours from photons.
I don't think that any of that is possible, b/c we cannot imagine colors we know nothing about!http://img161.echo.cx/img161/7754/spin1cg.gif
Maybe I am getting out of my depth here, but is the colour spectrum Universal. What I mean is, could little green men for example see "New Colours".
Not really! Sorry :shakehead2:
Well. My Dog hears Sounds that I can't so why not colours.
Well, that is typical, b/c our hearing doesn't usually match that of a dog's, unless you have a disability. Well, I jump when my cat does, but I wasn't able to talk until I was 4, so that could explain that! :D
Would they see the 'visible' spectrum in how we see red, green and blue? How do we know animals see the same thing inside their heads as we do? Dogs see in black and white (apparently).Quote:
Originally posted by dreamboat
Maybe I am getting out of my depth here, but is the colour spectrum Universal. What I mean is, could little green men for example see \"New Colours\".
We see this part of the EM spectrum because it was a useful thing for us to do, (in evolution terms) what if another creature evolved to see further outwards on the spectrum?
EDIT: I just realised, other animals do see different parts of the spectrum.. snakes!
How Snakes See Two Ways
Squirrels use infrared against snakes
what does infrared look like to a snakes mind?
I see that you used the words 'see', 'eye' and 'light', even though none of them are present in a dream, unless you make it.Quote:
However, it would be impossible for us to see this colour anyway, because the eye is sensitive to mixtures of red, green and blue light.[/b]
I believe that you could perhaps imagine new colors. Seeing as colors are dependant on perception, the color would have to be custom. Obviously you wouldn't be able to see it in life, and others would never see it how you do. You would never be able to describe it.
The only real way to find out for sure is to try it. Maybe it will work, maybe it wont.
Yes we could.Quote:
I don't think that any of that is possible, b/c we cannot imagine colors we know nothing about![/b]
Ramble ramble
and here's something else i know: no two people see colours in the same way...our eyes register it differently, so the shade might be slightly different.
Example: My friend and i were looking at a metal panel. She said it was grey, I said it was greenish-gray, with more emphasis on the green.
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamboat
How would one go about describing them ?.
I have had three or for dreams where I have become lucid. When the dream seemed to have a color based theme to it, I focused my attention on color. When I did, they became much more intense and vivid.
It had seemed that I was seeing colors outside the color spectrum we know.
It was most likey an illusion.
But aside from the primary colors, the pallette of colors that can be created with secondary colors seems andless so who knows.
All i do know is that in the dream it was so visually stimulating that it felt pysical as well.
Do we dream in color?
Dreamboat, Thought that you might find this topic intersesting too.
I see no reason why not to be able to see a new colour in a dream, but it would be impossible to describe. It would be complete illusion of course, but then that's what a dream is to start with :P
How do you explain the colour green without pointing to examples? (for example)
I am glad to see indications that this might be possible, because I have been hoping to accomplish this for a long time. I really did not know how I could go about visualizing a new color, but I had hoped that lucid dreaming could be helpful. Howetzer's and dreamboat's experiences are very encouraging to me! :happygolucky:
It is true that other colors do exist. Many fish and birds have four primary colors, and some hummingbirds have five. Many mammals only have two, but some mammals, including primates, have three. Usually, the fourth color receptor (called a cone) picks up ultraviolet light. In fact some women have a genetic mutation that allows them to see four primary colors. This has been proven by some experiment I don't completely understand involving the person making different colors by blending primary-colored lights.
Also, there is something else that has puzzled me. The three cones that we see color with are not sensitive to light of one specific frequency, but to a wide range of frequencies that peak at red, green, and blue wavelengths. These ranges overlap. This means that if you see green light, your red and blue cones are also activated to some extent. This means that the color green is actually kind of paled compared to what maybe it ought to be. So I have been wondering what would happen if only the green cone was stimulated: would we see a green more intense than green? :mrgreen: This has made me reevaluate the meaning of red. Since the green cone is somewhat receptive to the frequency where red peaks, that hue is not a true primary color. I have looked at the part of the spectrum where nothing really registers except red, and it seems to be a very dark burgundy or something. So maybe the primary color red is really like a super-intense burgundy.
Maybe tour brains get used to faded green and just interpret it as vividly as it can. But then I wonder why yellow looks so whitish. Sometimes I wonder if the idea of primary colors is not real, but just a trick of the mechanics of the eye. Maybe our mind just takes the information from the three cones and just applies them to its own color feild in a way that makes sense to it. Maybe the way to add colors is not to add a new primary color, but to slowly stretch your color field to expand it :rainbow:. I'm not really sure. Interestingly, it seems as if Dreamboat added a new primary color and as if Howetzer expanded the color field, but I dunno :laughhard: !
Also, it would be fun to do this with hearing and try to find new pitches. I would not dare try to do this with something as complicated with smell; I am overwhelmed by even trying to isolate primary smells :shakehead2: . Maybe LD could be helpful for that as well...
Aren't colors practically an illusion themselves?Quote:
It was most likey an illusion. [/b]
I think by what science knows there are a limited amount of colors possible. Red, orange, yellow, green. blue, indigo, and violet. Then stemming from them come other colors. So factually there may be a limit. That is going by a fact based conclusion.
However, to me there is know way that anyone can tell how each specific individual percieves the color at hand. Your blue may be differant than my blue or green, etc.
I suppose taking into account all the variations of the make up of the eye itself as an organ can only haveso many ways it percieve a color as well.
That still does not eliminate the possibilty that someone may interpret a color on a conscious level bringing into play factors like lableing, illusion, feeling, imagination and such.
Look at certain artists. It would seemingly be easy to duplicate the color pallette of , lets say Thomas Kinkade. Easier said than done.
It is like trying to make the exact same damn recipe for my Aunts gravey. I pinch of this a dash of that.
:roll:
http://img101.echo.cx/img101/5108/olderv16hz.th.jpg
Ooh! Who's read that book.... what's it called... The Giver? :? I think that's it. This topic is almost completely like that.
Well, at least the color part. (Don't worry; not going to spoil it)
Okay look... the only time that you've THOUGHT you've seen a new color is when you deluded yourself to believe so. During a normal dream, I've often thought things such as (hypothetical) 210+2430=98 or something, so why not make myself believe I've seen a new color? And nesgirl, you can't describe a new color with other colors. If its "reddish-orangy" it's not a new color, its reddish-orangy.
Anyone who has not read The Giver, go out and get it now... Its a short read, but it makes you think a lot. I read it way back before I became a real person and independent thinker, and have desperately been craving to read it again. I think I will take my own advice and go get it now. It gives a lot of insight on seeing how there could be things outside what we understand here in this society. They sure had an interesting one. It reminds me of 1984 except more mysterious and not so much government probing.
I think that seeing new colors is absolutely possible... though my guess is that it wouldn't really have anything to do with going outside our visible spectrum. Though seeing X-rays or Infared would be interesting and our brains would have to create a whole new color I don't think I see that while LDing.
What I do see is something different... Something that is more than one color at the same time but it isn't a mix of colors if you can imagine that. Could something be a solid shade of red and green without ever being brown? Catch my drift? Both together, but separately distinct. Interesting to think about. That is why when I think of my LD's, I cant remember a color of many things... I never gave it a fixed normal color in my head. Perhaps that is why some people dream in "black and white".
Yes, the Giver is a great book, and I think it is what made me want to find a new color so badly. I originally thought it was impossible, so I didn't try too hard :wink: .
However, when I was young I also read a book called A Wrinkle in Time where higher dimensions were discussed. They were described in the book as impossible to visuallize, but I was not so sure. I was unsure because of an analogy that was made between one-dimensional, two-dimensional, and three-dimensional people. I thought that if I carried out the analogies far enough, I could come up with four dimensions. After a lot of thinking, I figured out what it would be like to be four dimensional, and I thought that I was the first person to ever figure this out. However, I later found out that this was already thought about hundreds of years ago, but I just never read about it.
Since I had so much luck with the fourth (and fifth and sixth etc.) dimension, I thought I would try to tackle the more difficult challenge of thinking of a new color. However, I don't really know where to start yet, because I have no analogy to work on that helps me. So I am stuck :whyohwhy: .
Also, the Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Indigo Violet color scheme is only mentioned by science because Newton just came up with it out of nowhere. He chose seven colors just because he liked the number seven. He did not even know that light had frequencies: he thought that light was made of particles and had nothing to do with waves. Also, the idea of "visable light" is artificial, because if we saw UV it would also be put in that catagory. Sure UV will harm your skin and seems different in that way. However, all wavelengths have their own ideosyncracies. For example, blue dyes break up more easily than dyes of other colors, and red light does not nourish plants very well.
But in the end, I'm really just rambling because colors are created in your brain anyways and have nothing to do with light frequencies. People with some (good) condition spelled something remotely like "synthsaetesia" can taste colors and hear pain. ( :idea: I should add this to my lucid to-do list!)
Synesthesia, it's pretty awesome. For example, you can see music represented as different colors, maybe the sound of rain feels like a trickle down your back, and a nice day can taste like honey or something, it sounds awesome.
Although we have gianed more insight and done a lot more research, Isaac hardly came out of it from nowhere.Quote:
Originally posted by Feeble Wizard
Also, the Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Indigo Violet color scheme is only mentioned by science because Newton just came up with it out of nowhere. He chose seven colors just because he liked the number seven. He did not even know that light had frequencies: he thought that light was made of particles and had nothing to do with waves. Also, the idea of \"visable light\" is artificial, because if we saw UV it would also be put in that catagory. Sure UV will harm your skin and seems different in that way. However, all wavelengths have their own ideosyncracies. For example, blue dyes break up more easily than dyes of other colors, and red light does not nourish plants very well.
Isaac had the idea to take a second prism and regather the colored light back into "white light." This is how we learned that white light is comprised of all the colors of the rainbow. Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, and Violet (hence the acronym, ROY G BIV), Sir Isaac's own description of the color spectrum.
No you can't see new colours. Imagine a new colour right now. You can't? Didn't think so - so how would you make one in a dream. You're still using the same brain as you are when awake, you don't magically gain superhero colour visualizing abilites just because you're conked out over your pillow.
Dear Dreamboat,
You really could use more confidence in your own experiences. If you experienced a New Color in one of your dreams, then why hesitate and permit yourself to be reasoned out of it. For instance, how could it be a 'flawed' dream? What sense does it make to say it was not a New Color but only the idea of a new color? Did you see it or not? If you saw it, then it was there. In your Dreams there is a New Color and that is an absolute FACT.
You know, if you can't even believe in your own experiences, how can you possibly expect the Higher Mind to invest any effort into you. The Great Collective Consciousness has all of us to choose between, and would probably pick out people on whom to bestow its benefits who have a degree of appreciation for them. Affirm your own experiences. You will have plenty of enemies and critics who will caste suspicion upon them. You don't have to be your own worst enemy.
Imagination and perception are linked in the brain -- imagination using a shadow version of the perceptions. Now, if the Perceptions are expanded so that a New Color is perceived, this stretch in the Perceptions would follow down to the Imagination.Quote:
Originally posted by Kaniaz
No you can't see new colours. Imagine a new colour right now. You can't? Didn't think so - so how would you make one in a dream. You're still using the same brain as you are when awake, you don't magically gain superhero colour visualizing abilites just because you're conked out over your pillow.
Years ago in a dream I was given a Spiritual Vision Kit, and it could be installed in three configurations so that it could be used in all of the Three Major Spiritual Levels. Suppose this Spiritual Vision Kit worked -- once one is able to perceive on these New Levels, would it make sense for you to say that we still could not Imagine them?
Does Perception depend upon Imagination or just the opposite, that Imagination leans upon Perception? It looks like your argument is backwards.
Couldn't understand a word you said. Actually, I lost you at "Spiritual Vision Kit".
I mean is that a serious question or philosphy here.Quote:
Does Perception depend upon Imagination or just the opposite, that Imagination leans upon Perception?[/b]
Anyway, I'll take a stab at what you're saying here, but forgive me if I get the wrong end of the stick.
No, it wouldn't, but it's not going to work, is it? You can only perceive and "imagine" red, green, blue, white, etc. I can't imagine a new colour (can you?). I think the same thing is up in dreams. You're basically imagining what's happening - only a bit more realistic - so why would you be able to?Quote:
Suppose this Spiritual Vision Kit worked -- once one is able to perceive on these New Levels, would it make sense for you to say that we still could not Imagine them? [/b]
It's like the "explaning colours to a person that has not seen a certain colour" thing. You could try and explain red to a person who hasn't seen red, but it's impossible. What would you say? "It's like...uh...ugh. It's the opposite of green!". It's the same thing with us, nearly - we're "blind" to all these colours that are out of the spectrum we can see things in.
Although I'm no scientist.
PS: Funny thing happened when I was typing this post. As I typed "a word you said", exactly the same thing - "a word you said" was sung by the song I'm playing. :P The planets just aligned, mom!
Well, my history teacher said that perception is the information that one receives, usually by eyesight, like when you look at a picture & say, "Hey! That picture looks like a woman's face & a guy playing a trumpet!" It is also said that guessing is a form of perception, too (don't answer this), b/c you are basically seeing the outcome of the guess, at least!Quote:
Originally posted by Kaniaz
I mean is that a serious question or philosphy here.[/b]Quote:
Does Perception depend upon Imagination or just the opposite, that Imagination leans upon Perception?
I know that; I just didn't quite get the question Leo put there.
Uh, okay. Maybe the reason why my history teacher knows so much is b/c he also teaches psychology.... :D
Why do people have such a difficult time with something like color. It is because they can't describe it. Try and explain consciouness, What is it, where etc.
But that does not mean that your imaginantion is not able to create or manifest colors outside of what one can't explain.
I completely agree with loe Volont.
Some other facts I found about color, based on waking life perception.Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont
You really could use more confidence in your own experiences. If you experienced a New Color in one of your dreams, then why hesitate and permit yourself to be reasoned out of it. For instance, how could it be a 'flawed' dream? What sense does it make to say it was not a New Color but only the idea of a new color? Did you see it or not? If you saw it, then it was there. In your Dreams there is a New Color and that is an absolute FACT.
How many colors are there?
For men, the original seven colors are more than enough. But women who subscribe to Vogue can name 32.
I hate that. There's like azure, turqoise and "russian pink" or whatever and they all look the same to me. :lol:
haha. I have looked at Vogue before. It's in color?Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont
For men, the original seven colors are more than enough. But women who subscribe to Vogue can name 32.
Have you ever seen all the colors that they come up with in a piant aisle? Or the ridiculous names they have for nail polish or hair color???
Just from watercoler alone I can think of so many blues, Indigo, cerulean, ultrmarine, Cobalt, Antwerp, prussion......Good grief. And then there are varitions of hues on those colors. To think that our brain can't divise a new color in our dreams seems like a rather monochromatic vantage point.
;)
I haven't had time to read every post on this topic, so I apologize of I rehash something thats already been said:
I would think that to see a "new" color, would mean you'd have to see a color that was Never set eyes upon. To do that, you would have to have a working knowledge of every shade and/or blend of color in existence, a knowledge that possibly a few artists in the world (if any at all) have. However, to say that you saw a Blend of color that before now was unknown to you, would be very possible. There is a near-infinite cache of possible color combinations out there. Putting yellow and pink pieces of translucent paper together would make a new color, and placing a set of green paper down on top of that would change to a new shade as well. Perhaps what you were seeing was a mixture of more than one color, set on top of each other, and portraying a color that was somehow unfamiliar to you. Space is filled with colors of the most awesome hues; planets, galaxies, stars, however I think its safe to say that even the most alien shades are simply varying degrees and mixtures of the colors we are already used to.
In theory, extraterrestrials could see other colors we can't if their eyes react to light not from the visible spectrum. Anyway, back to dreams. You cannot imagine something you have never seen. If you imagine a unicorn, it is just a picture of a horse with a horn. There is no way to imagine something truly and completely original,like a color.
Isn't anything you imagine original?Quote:
Originally posted by Rapscallion
In theory, extraterrestrials could see other colors we can't if their eyes react to light not from the visible spectrum. Anyway, back to dreams. You cannot imagine something you have never seen. If you imagine a unicorn, it is just a picture of a horse with a horn. There is no way to imagine something truly and completely original,like a color.
Sure it may be derived from various other things that your mind has interpreted but it can collectivley put things together to make something that you may have never seen. I don't see how a color would be any differant.
Just because you cannot describe colors with our spoken language very well does not mean the mind needs an intepreter.
-- You cannot imagine something you have never seen. If you imagine a unicorn, it is just a picture of a horse with a horn. There is no way to imagine something truly and completely original,like a color.----
If you can only imagine things that you have seen, how can i imagine a circle, or a line...?neither exists in the 'objective' world..
Colour is just something generated by our mind to differentiate between light hitting our eyes at different wavelengths.. its made by our mind and is not a property of the light.. if our minds can make up colours to show that: then why can it not make up colours for other reasons? It might not be a colour that our eyes would generate, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist..
To counter my own argument, if colours only exist in order to represent different wavelengths of the visible spectrum, then why would some colours exist that, by definition, would never be needed..? There must only be the visible spectrum colours.
**I dunno, i guess it comes down to wether or not you think colours exist only as much as they are required to interpret waves, or if there are some already set out in our mind for lots of potential reasons that have yet to be uncovered..?
I'm not sure.
pecae.xx
I invented green because I was the first to dream that color.