Any other Newbies have doubts about Lucid dreaming?
(I hate the term 'Newbies' - I think its belittling, but its obviously what I' m categorised with for the time being so I'll ride it out)
I'm just wondering if anyone else who has just discovering/experimenting with lucid dreaming have doubts as to if it is really possible to be 'luicd' and seemingly conscious in a dream. Being asleep by definition, is being unconcious, no? I've heard people talk of OBE's and NDE's and I don't rule anything out, but rather than anything beyond what we presently know scientificaly, I find a more simple explaination for these experiences in a biological/pyschological framework. I wonder if lucid dreaming is the same.
Do we want to believe we can be aware in a dream and hey presto! - we dream we have been aware and able to control it in the same way we incorporate things that have happened to us recently in 'real life' into dreams? Is lucid dreaming simply retrospectively reinterpreting our dreams once we wake up as having been aware when they were nothing more than the brain doing its normal nightly 'data dump'?
Phil
p.s. I like being an advocate of the devil :mad: I have this real cynical/idealistic duality going on.
Re: Any other Newbies have doubts about Lucid dreaming?
Quote:
Originally posted by fluid phil
(I hate the term 'Newbies' - I think its belittling, but its obviously what I' m categorised with for the time being so I'll ride it out)
Chrissake. You weren't to know, but before you were here (a long time ago now) you all used to be called \"n00bs\", but since that was also categorised as being too belitting, it was changes to \"Newbies\". Shall we just go with \"fluffybunnies\" or something?
Quote:
i have been thinking about something recently...what if lucid dreams are not lucid at all? what if they are simply us having a dream about being lucid.[/b]
I've thought about that before. There's probably some ECG (brainwave) stuff that could show that it's not just any old dream, however.
Re: Any other Newbies have doubts about Lucid dreaming?
Quote:
Originally posted by Kaniaz
I've thought about that before. There's probably some ECG (brainwave) stuff that could show that it's not just any old dream, however.
To again reiterate!
To elaborate on Placabo's point on La'Berges study.
In a controled environment. He was hooked up to Positron emmision tomogrophy (PET) or brain imaging scans. As well as an FMRI. A functional magnectic resonance image. In short, to show what part of the brain was active during his REM period. To prove to the researchers that he indeed was not manifesting this Lucidity and was in fact in control of his actions he predetermined his actions prior to sleep. He set out, opon going to sleep that when he becomes Lucid that he will show his control by moving his eyes back and forth in succession in seperate intervals. Since the eyes are the only physical function that is not subject to sleep paralysis. As the machines had shown just has in any other subject that he was in REM sleep. He performed what he said he was going to do.
Also If you truely had a Lucid dream I feel you would understand conscousness from unconsciousness. I am as subjective as they come and awareness is awareness and control is control. To add to that there are thousands of people who opon having a lucid dream are in concert with one another about its subjectivness.
To still subjectivley see lucid dreaming as an interpretation is intirely valid. For it seems that is what it is. But take into consideration that so to is your waking life.
Re: Any other Newbies have doubts about Lucid dreaming?
Quote:
Originally posted by Howetzer+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Howetzer)</div>
Quote:
To again reiterate!
To elaborate on Placabo's point on La'Berges study.
In a controled environment. He was hooked up to Positron emmision tomogrophy (PET) or brain imaging scans. As well as an FMRI. A functional magnectic resonance image. In short, to show what part of the brain was active during his REM period. [/b]
My local library, to my surprise, had 'The dream machine' by Keith hearne where he mentions being the first person to do these tests. I've just started reading it.
Quote:
Originally posted by Howetzer@
To prove to the researchers that he indeed was not manifesting this Lucidity and was in fact in control of his actions he predetermined his actions prior to sleep. He set out, opon going to sleep that when he becomes Lucid that he will show his control by moving his eyes back and forth in succession in seperate intervals. Since the eyes are the only physical function that is not subject to sleep paralysis. As the machines had shown just has in any other subject that he was in REM sleep. He performed what he said he was going to do.
The machines readings correlated with predetermined REM dream-state levels when he signalled. Does not PROVE he was lucid dreaming. You cannot rule out that although he met the machines criteria of being in a dream state, he still had a degree of awakeness to send the signal. Some meditators are able to change their brain wave patterns into a deep delta, dream like state, and yet are not in a paralysed state. This brain imaging and eeg stuff is not a nailed down science as far as i know. Depends a lot on callibration and they vary a lot depending on how they are used and how their data interpreted.
<!--QuoteBegin-Howetzer
Also If you truely had a Lucid dream I feel you would understand conscousness from unconsciousness. I am as subjective as they come and awareness is awareness and control is control.
I've heard people say the same thing about 'seeing or feeling God truly for the first time'. They say \"you can't know until you experience it. Then you will never doubt again\". They may be right, but it is not objective proof of anything, which is my point.
Quote:
Originally posted by Howetzer
To add to that there are thousands of people who opon having a lucid dream are in concert with one another about its subjectivness.
There are thousands of people who are in 'concert' that they have been snatched one night by aliens and anally probed, tested and returned to earth. People say the same thing about NDE's & OBE's. \"Peoples accounts of these are so similar, even when they are on other sides of the world, that it must be true\" But pyschological, emotional, biological and subliminal factors common to the human race may come into play in these accounts.
Quote:
Originally posted by Howetzer
To still subjectivley see lucid dreaming as an interpretation is intirely valid. For it seems that is what it is. But take into consideration that so to is your waking life.
We could argue all day about the nature of reality and is their such a thing as 'objective' proof but I take as the yard stick scientific method in determining objective proof. I like putting ld up to this criteria to get another view on the whole thing. Peoples testimonials about ld's are certainly fascinating but they are not in themselves proof. Even if I had the most transcendent amazing ld (and I think the one I had was pretty low on the ld scale - perhaps not even a true ld) I would still maintain an open mind about it perhaps being a quirk of my brain.
No, the mind is a complicated and beautiful thing.
Personally I've never had doughts about lucid dreaming, for as long as I can remember I've had "semi"-lucid dreams... never quite reaching to that special place that I crave. Some call my desire "Romantasism" others I know beleive that I reasearch lucidity from a scientific stand point but the simple truth is... I only wish to know myself. The mind is a complex object, I don't mean to brag and I'm sure that many (or even most) here know more than I do, but I know much of the human mind and much of the subconciouse. The quest for consciousness is an ongoing war, but why must it only be a consciouse war? Why not take the desire to know oneself and ones being, ones very exsistant, to the one place that can give us the answers? That place is the subconciouse mind. Dreams are a powerfull tool, the subconciouse is a powerfull tool. But should it rightfully be called "Tool"? Your subconciouse, and their fore your dreams are you. Don't waste them... Don't waste them.
-Leif902
Current Dream: Lucidity.
Once have I loved. And once have I failed. Once have I had a truly lucid dream.
P.S. please excuse my spelling failures. I have always been one for words and for dreams, but never one for the security of static plauges.