Hi looking forward to learning what i can about dreams for DV members

Hello,

I've never studied dreams and dreaming.
I have always paid close attention to my own dreams though.

I often used to look up 'dream symbolisms' after a clear memorable dream but have become totally disenchanted by the generic explanations given on these types of sites/books. I mean they all seem to have a 'angle' if you ask me and presuppose that we all think and feel the same about these so called symbols. To me it seems ridiculous that a dream of a cat, for example, could have the same symbolism for me as it does for a person who is serverely allergic to or afraid of cats. On the other hand, if a dream dictionairy tells me something I want to hear, then i'm much more open to it. :cheeky:

Im kinda confused when i see the word 'lucid' thrown around all over this website... I understand lucid to mean clear, particularly in relation to the mind or vision. Yet i've seen comments on this site suggesting that 'lucid dreaming' is the ability or phenomenom of knowing your dreaming. This has never happened to me as far as i recall. I have very clear vivid dreams and remember precise details, sometimes for years or decades, but iv never been aware that what im experiencing is a dream.
In fact... at first thought, it would seem to me to be some kind of disorder to be asleep and dreaming, and aware that you are asleep and dreaming! I can shut my eyes and see images whilst awake, and in this case i obviously know that what im seeing is in my minds eye, but I have never been dreaming and conscious that I am dreaming to the best of my knowledge. If any of you would like to explain more about this or share your views that would be much apreciated.

So thats whats grabbing my curiosity at the moment when it comes to dreams.

I'd certainly like to think that dreams are more than just our subconscious minds, i'd like to think that it's possible for the 'universal mind/comsciousness' or angels to comunicate messages to us when we dream, or even when we still our senses during meditation and day dreaming. I try not to make assumptions though.

I have had some seriously weird dream experiences where I really felt I was given a premonition. Iv also seen things in dreams that im convinced i've never seen whilst awake, which does make me think it's possible that dreams are more than just the brain repeating images and sounds which it has experienced before.

I'm open to the possibility of telepathy.

Thats about all I have to say at the moment. I think im an open honest person. My hope for this endeavour is to find pleasant people to discuss dreams with, share my thoughts and insights and learn from the thoughts and experiences of others.

I do tend to think that real knowledge and understanding comes from within, but perhaps I learnt that one from without? I think myself in circles sometimes!

I've seen some interesting comments on here from some clearly intelligent people, im not really here for the social aspect although i enjoy a nice chat like the next person, im just here hoping that I might learn something rewarding.

So that's me, pleasure to meet you im sure.

P.S I do tend to write a lot more pretensiously than I speak.. the consequence of having to much time to think if you ask me. You will see from my ample spelling mistake, that i'm quite an uneducated Jungle Jim and I make no qualms about it.

Welcome to Dreamviews! Pleased to meet you.

Responding to the lucid dreaming related part of your post: lucid dreaming is the ability to during a dream be aware that it is a dream. In an ideal world the dreamer does not immediately wake up from such a dream (though beginners often do). Also in ideal world though not necessarily the dreamer is aware of the fact that everything he sees in his dream is just a figment of his or her imagination, that there is nothing to be afraid of. lucid dreamers can have quite a lot of control, including (but not limited to): changing the scene of the dream at will, flying, using magic, changing the plot of the dream, interacting with dream characters. Lucid dreaming comes naturally to some people, but it is a real skill, which anyone can learn. If you are curious about it, I highly recommend that you read the tutorials on this site, and you might also want to buy a book by Stephen LaBerge entitled Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, for example, though there are other good books on the subject as well. LaBerge conducted experiments in a dream lab at Stanford University, which involved the dreamer sending prearranged eye movement signals while dreaming.

Lucid dreaming is lots of fun, and can be a very rewarding experience. I highly recommend it.

Thanks Joanna,

Certainly does sound interesting... I find it hard to imagine!

I have been 'in control' in dreams, exerted my will etc. but can't say i've ever known im dreaming!

I've woken up, been aware of the dream i just had, gone back to sleep and re-entered the same dream or a continuation, but i suppose those are different things.

I'v also incorperated external noises into my dreams... one time I was driving my car and I dreamt that the car alarm randomly went off, in the dream i stopped the car, opened the bonnet, found the horn, disconnected the wire... but the alarm still sounded off! so i ripped a few more wires out, the alarm still went off! It's vague now but i seem to remember in my dream, after spending some time confused, i came up with some other ideas about where the alarm sound was coming from and tried to make it stop... eventually I woke up and my alarm clock had been going off for 10 or 15 minutes! I was late for work! makes you realise what an influence external sounds can have on your dreams, which is one reason why I don't like to sleep with the T.V on. I did actually hear a rumour that T.V stations turn the adverts up even louder than usual at night time when people are likely to be sleeping. Talk about subliminal manipulation!

Anyway, this definitely sounds very interesting, I will try to get hold of that book and others on the subject... Find many of the comments on this site about MILDS AND WEILDS AND FEILDS and all that a bit confusing at the moment but will eventually get my head around all this terminology!

Thanks Joanna, a pleasure to make your aquiantance.

Hello again,

I have further questions about what exactly 'lucid dreaming' is...

If I close my eyes and begin to see images in my minds eye while completely relaxed yet completely awake, is this a lucid dream?

Or is it that one has to be asleep and yet conscious of the dream? It seems to me that one of the definitions of being alsleep, is that one is unconscious. Therefor it seems odd that people can be conscious that they are dreaming! unless they are not actually asleep, they are 'daydreaming' or visualising in the minds eye but not actually asleep?

Could anybody provide any further insight on this? It would be much apreciated.

Hello there, Lucidian, and welcome to the forums.

To satisfy your curiosity, yes, you must actually be asleep when you lucid dream. You can go directly from the waking state to the dreaming state, which is called WILD (Wake Induced Lucid Dreaming), but you actually have to fall asleep to have a lucid dream. For it to be a lucid dream, you have to be both asleep and know that you are dreaming at the same time. There are several methods of achieving this, all of which are outlined in the DreamViews wiki under DV Tutorials. I'd suggest you try Dream induced Lucid Dreaming first.

Well then, I wish you the best of luck with having your first lucid dream.

If you just close your eyes but not actually fall asleep, anything that you experience is not a dream but a daydream. When we talk of lucid dreaming we talk of being aware of dream state while actually dreaming and fully asleep. There are two ways to achieve this: one can start out awake and gradually fall asleep without loosing awareness (this kind of lucid dream is called a WILD), or one could while asleep and dreaming realize that it is a dream (this is called a DILD) and may actually not wake up right away though beginning lucid dreamers actually do usually wake up immediately upon realizing that it is a dream, but experienced ones can continue to dream fully aware that it is a dream and can have long vivid dreams with lots of control with realiatic experiences including flying and other cool stuff. There have been scientific studies done which have proven that people are indeed asleep and yet able to communicate pre-arranged eye signals to the waking world. If you define dreaming as being unconscious clearly that definition does not cover all of possible dream experiences: the human mind is capable of amazing awareness and even control even when fully asleep.

EDIT: Your questions remind me of a woman I once knew who had her first headache only as an adult, and she told me that until she experienced it, she thought people had this weird invented excuse because how could a head hurt unless you banged it.

Thank you both, nice to meet you postscript.

You're explaination of wild and dild was very good Joanna.

It's easier for me to imagine a dreamer becoming aware that they are dreaming, rather than being aware they are dreaming from the very onset of sleep... Is it scientifically accepted that people can dream as soon as they sleep? and also be aware that they are dreaming from the offset?

Can you explain more to me about what you mean by 'using magic' please Joanna?

The human sleep cycle changes throughout the night. Sleep cycles in roughly 90minute intervals, and often we wake up in between one cycle and the next but often we fall right back to sleep and forget we woke up. Dreams, the kind of vivid dreams where one can experience a world that is much like the waking world but different, those happen during the Rapid Eye Movement (REM) phase of sleep, and in the beginning of the night only a very small fraction of sleep is REM, and one does not immediately go into REM upon falling asleep, but as the night progresses the longer we stay asleep the more REM sleep we get, and thus in the morning hours one can actually fall asleep and immediately start to dream. That's why WILD is more likely to be effective in the morning hours after a number of hours spent in sleep already. Another good time to WILD may b during a nap.

What do I mean by using magic in dreams? First of all what I mean by it does not matter as much because each of us has our dreams of our own creation, and thus if my definition of magic differs from yours, then your "using magic" in dreams would be different. Basically in dreams it is possible to do stuff that one cannot do in waking life because the laws of nature do not apply: the dream world is built in our imagination; now it is still limited by our expectations and fears and such so it is not unlimited, but one can defy gravity ad fly, one can transport to another place by just opening a dream door and willing the other place to be on the other side, one can transform "real dogs" into "cardboard dogs" just by staring at them (now of course they are not actually real, but they can look and feel and sound real, and then they can suddenly look and feel like cardboard because our mind is capable of reproducing that realistically in a dream. If you prefer you can use a magic wand or telepathy in a dream to make things happen, and it all can happen because it is all build on your memories and your expectations and your desires and what not. So it is not actually using magic, but it will feel and look like it to one.

Do you have any links for that dream cycles information? I did read something about the types of dreams we have corrolating to the stage of sleep we are in... with 'epic' dreams occuring when we wake from our deepest sleep, in which our brainwaves are at the lowest frequency.

What if in a dream our spirit body is really flying and really experiencing the physical laws of nature? How would we know otherwise?
What if our mind can access another plane when the body sleeps? and the plane it can access relates to the level of rest in the body/the brainwave frequency?

I once had a dream about a person I met the next day, kinda strange isnt it?

I learned about sleep cycles from chapters in books on lucid dreaming, for example books by Stephen LaBerge or now I am reading a book by Daniel Love and he also goes over the basics of sleep cycles.

Here is a web link to something about sleep cycles but there is tons of other info out there, some scientifically and some less so. Stages of Sleep: REM and Non-REM Sleep Cycles

Personally I am not as much into the "beyond dreaming" stuff like what if it is another realm, but I know other members of this forum are, check out the Beyond Dreaming section if this interests you. Although I do admit being sometimes intrigued or amused by beyond dreaming subjects, and I try to keep an open mind, but I mostly trust the scientific approaches the most and have not been convinced yet by the evidence for the beyond dreaming stuff (precognitive dreams, shared dreams, other realms, memories of other life times, , though part of me keeps looking into it occasionally just in case, and I am not convinced that none of it is real just have not seen evidence yet that would convince me that any of it is.

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Originally Posted by JoannaB

Personally I am not as much into the "beyond dreaming" stuff like what if it is another realm. I mostly trust the scientific approaches the most and have not been convinced yet by the evidence for the beyond dreaming stuff (precognitive dreams, shared dreams, other realms, memories of other life times, , though part of me keeps looking into it occasionally just in case, and I am not convinced that none of it is real just have not seen evidence yet that would convince me that any of it is.

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Thanks for the links.

Personally I'm not much of a 'believer' in things either, I need evidence too. Sometimes something can make sense as a real possibility, enough so that I remain very open and curious about it... even without the support of the so called scientific comunity.

I recently found this artical about these guys who did an astral projection experiment to jupiter in 1973. The guys were from the parapsychology lab at stanford research institute.

I was reading some stuff regarding the details of the experiment, what the astral travellers saw and drew of the surface of Jupiter, and how much of it was confirmed by the probe which went to Jupiter shortly afterwards.
Im not allowed to post links until tommorow so I will try to come back and edit this post, in the meantime you could type 'The Ingo Swann 1973 Remote Viewing probe of the planet Jupiter' into google

The astral projecters got a lot of details correct. As always members of the conventional scientific comunity including prominent astronomers refused to give any creedence or acknowledgement of the astral projection experiment. They refused to recieve a copy of the experimental data gained by astral projection as they had already presupposed that it is without merit and impossible.... That's not scientific, thats pseudoscientific. That for me is a problem that is rife throughout the conventional scientific comunity, it's seems many orthodox scientists have been brainwashed by old assumptions and dogmas regarding what is known about reality. I trust the so called scientific evidence about as much as I trust money grabbing, out of touch, politicians or manipulating and dishonest medias. According to the artical I linked above, astral projection is as much scientific fact as anything else... Yet still people who only give credit to science will not know about this evidence and if they do they will claims its very soft and subjective. I don't really have faith in the scientific method to give any profound insights into reality, In my current opinion it's only good for analysing materials and turning them into technologies which can make rich and powerful people even richer and more powerful.

The only way I will get proof or be convinced of the potential for something to be true is to experience it for myself... not by believing conventional scientific dogmas, nor by believing every story about parapsychology or telepathy... So i'd love it if some old sage could teach me how to experience something amazing for myself...

The same goes for lucid dreaming, I haven't experienced it. Lots of people here claim to have so I give it some credibility... but I have a lot to understand about it before I feel I understand it and not until I experience it will I claim to 'believe' in it.

Ah, whereas I do not need to experience something personally to believe that it is real. I trust scientists more than para psychologists, and government or higher education websites more than commercial ones, I base credibility based on who said something in part - are they someone I trust. I do not need to have experienced a heart attack to believe that they are real and what the symptoms are because I know that sources which I consider credible have described heart attacks, and I trust their proof of them.

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Originally Posted by JoannaB

Ah, whereas I do not need to experience something personally to believe that it is real. I trust scientists more than para psychologists, and government or higher education websites more than commercial ones, I base credibility based on who said something in part - are they someone I trust. I do not need to have experienced a heart attack to believe that they are real and what the symptoms are because I know that sources which I consider credible have described heart attacks, and I trust their proof of them.

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Well I dont trust education much myself.

But as for things like heart attacks and what not yes sure I trust they happen, from the people who experience them rather than from scientists I suppose.
But I was talking more about ultimate reality of life... and science is a long way of understanding that in my opinion.

What do you think of the astral projection experiement? scientific enough? do you trust it?

No, I do not trust the astral projection experiment. I read that the Jupiter astral projection was examined by a sceptic and only a certain percentage of the vision's claims were confirmed, and moreover of those some were based on already publicly available knowledge or were probable based on just applying logic and best guess.

I guess a lot of it comes down to who do you trust versus who do I trust. For example, I trust government sources such as the NIH and NSF and NASA, and I am more likely to be skeptical of a claim by a company such as a pharmaceutical company that has in my mind a funancial vested interest. Someone else might point out to me that my views are also biased because government sources also have vested interests of course and why do I trust them more?

I can see someone making a valid claim that a pharmaceutical company may have a correct research result, and that the FDA suppresses it not because of public best interest or scientific reasons but perhaps because of lobbying or bureaucracy.

I know that many advances in dream research which were later confirmed by mainstream science actually started out in parapsychology, and scientists had initially trouble publishing studies on lucid dreaming in peer reviewed papers because it was linked with parapsychology at the time.

Also having once worked as a managing editor on a "peer reviewed" journal, I actually have good reasons to know that peer reviewed does not necessarily mean legitimate: the established academic is much more likely to publish a paper and may get away with incorrect claims, and a topic that is "hot" in the discipline may be considered for peer review whereas one that is of less interest to the editors may be dismissed.

So I am not saying my own evaluation of what is legitimate is unbiased, it is biased of course, but I have my criteria for how I decide whether a claim is legitimate, and mine are obviously different from yours. I am very much aware of the fallacies in who do I trust and which authorities I believe, but ultimately gotta believe somebody for some reasons.

Human being cannot rely on own experience alone for everything, and I cannot read all the proofs of everything so I have to take someone's word as credible sometimes.

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Originally Posted by JoannaB

No, I do not trust the astral projection experiment. I read that the Jupiter astral projection was examined by a sceptic and only a certain percentage of the vision's claims were confirmed, and moreover of those some were based on already publicly available knowledge or were probable based on just applying logic and best guess.

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But that skeptic was setting out to debunk it, not be impartial. I read that only one claim was dubious, something to do with mountains,,, and later probes indicated mountains may exist. Not sure how much could have been public knowledge before a probe went... not much! Lots of details including drawings were incredibly accurate.

I suppose it depends on where you go for your knowledge... best to hear both sides then investigate who has an agenda which would inspire dishonesty. These organised skeptics are notourious for not being open minded and impartial, and that is part of the ethos of science.

Also I think I read that an astronomer from NASA straight up refused to look at the data from the astral projection experiment... these people will not risk their reputations on any 'wooo' that doesnt conform to the orthodox world view.

P.S still waiting for permission to post links.