Several questions i need answers to.... (long post)

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08-20-2008, 01:25 PM
Jellow

Several questions i need answers to.... (long post)

Hi!

I really got interested in lucid dreaming yesterday, and im now going to make an effort to reach it eventually. Even if i never reach it, i would like to improve my dream recall in general, so even if i fail at lucid dreaming, it will still be worth it.

My questions are on lucid dreams, and dreams in general. I have had many semi-weird experiences in dreams, that probably totally normal, but i've never paid enough attention to them for me to do research. There are some things id like to get clarifications on:

1) Recollection / Dream signs: My dreams, or my recollections of my dreams, are usually quite choppy, and i usually just remember the ending, or some parts from the beginning and the ending. I have fairly "realistic" dreams, but the only thing that is usually unrealistic is that events seem to happen quite randomly. The last dream i remember, that was two nights ago, i was at my old high school, and my chemistry teacher accused me of stealing her medicine :) , which she apparently stored in a rec room used for students to hang out in during recess. The room looked exactly like i remember it looking in high school, but the sofa and the armchairs were from my apartment. Of course this isnt really realistic, but there are never any flying puppies or green elephants in my dreams. Its borderline real, with some weird twist.
Is this a problem for attaining lucid dreams, because there are no hugely obvious signs that often in my dreams? It has to be said that the high school theme occurs quite often, and its like 5 years since i graduated, so maybe that could be a good dream sign? I havent been at the high school since graduation, and i live in another city now, so in real life, there is no reason for me to ever be there....

2) How "real" and how aware can you really be when lucid?

When reading people who have "mastered" lucid dreaming, they all say that when at its best, the dreams feel just as real as reality. I can accept that, but i have one question. When you are aware in your dreams, can you think about lets say, what you are going to do once you wake up, or what you have to do the next day etc? I mean, are you totally aware of things like: "when i wake up, im going to meet my sister at the cafe at 9 AM,", or "man, that football game was awesome last night, cant wait to talk to my friends about it when i wake up." Can you really contemplate on your existence in the real world, while continuing to stay in your dream?

3) Are these examples of the hypnagogic state?

I read the article on wikipedia on hypnagogia, and could notice many things that are familiar.

a) Often when im really really tired, the instant i close my eyes in bed, i start feeling a slight sensation of being "sucked" into my bed. Its not a strong feeling, and once i become aware of it, it usually stops, but it happens almost every time when im really tired at night, or when i go back to bed after waking up during the night.

b) I hear sounds, and especially music, when im really tired, or just otherwise not focusing on anything in particular while trying to get to sleep. Its usually music, and i can even stay in that state for a few seconds after i become aware of the "sound", but usually i snap out of it, and im just "WTF". This happens really often as well, and it can happen multiple times per night, and without having any knowledge before what this could be about, i usually manage to "be aware" of it while it is happening for a short time. The next time it happens, im going to try and relax and "clear my thoughts" while its happening and see if i can prolong it somehow.

c) Often, when i wake up too early, and go back to bed, i get these "quickie" dreams, where i just get these flashes of dreams with no context, and i usually just remember that i had them, but lose the memory of what they were about. The are often accompanied with sounds, and something that could be described as music. Its like some weird heavy metal music usually, and for people that listen to progressive metal will know what i mean, if i say it sounds like something the band Opeth could do, just multiplied with 10 in weirdness. Also, whispers and voices can be heard at the same time as these quickie dreams.

d) I get these weird twitches also during this same state, and its usually my limbs and body making a short, single twitch, as i snap to reality. They also happen during this same state of "almost sleeping" i experience sometimes, and usually i have a feeling of those twitches being somehow relevant to a dream, but i can rarely put them into context. I've been meaning to ask this for a while, because the happen quite frequently.
After reading about sleep paralysis yesterday, i made a hypothesis that this twitching is a result of me regaining the use of my limbs after the dream has ended. These quickie dreams are so short, that i cant really say whether im paralyzed or not during them, but could it be that the twitch is a result of me trying to move in my quickie dream, and not being able to, until the dream ends. Because it doesnt feel like the twitch is the thing that wakes me up, and instead it feels like the twitch happens after me waking up. I get the odd feeling of "why did i just do that", as if it had been a concious decision to twitch, but that i just couldnt recollect why on earth i would have done that.

So, are these signs of being in the hypnagogic state?

4) False awakenings or something like that

When i wake up before im supposed to, i often experience something that could be called false awakenings. Im fairly(extremely) lazy in the mornings, and getting out of bed is a huge obstacle for me. Often when i wake up before im supposed to, i frantically check the time on my mobile phone every 10 minutes or so, so that i know how long i can still stay in bed. If i have to wake up at 8 AM, and the alarm hasnt sounded, i sometimes think that i have already checked what time it is, even though in reality i havent. I can do this over and over again, and usually the clock actually seems like its moving in real time, and it can show 7:33, then 7:42, then 7:58 etc. The times i notice that i never watched the time, is when the clock actually is less than what i thought it was, but who knows whether this happens to me every morning, and i just dont notice it because sometimes the time i make up and the actual time are similar enough.
So, then when i think i have checked the time at 7:58, and feel weird that the alarm hasnt sounded at 8, when several minutes have gone by, i usually check the time for real. Very often it can be that the time is something like 6:43, and at that time i know that i have never actually checked the time. Its really weird, because i can be awake and totally concious between these periods where i think i have watched the time, and i cant remember a time where these "fake time check" have shown me unrealistic times, like the time being less than what it was previously.
So, is this a "false awakening", if it happens multiple times every morning, with me being 100% awake between these "false time checks". And im definitely sure that its not all just the one same dream, because i know that im definitely awake in between them, and i think that some times i have even gotten out of bed to go to the bathroom between these "false time checks"

Does anyone have any sort of similar experience, or does this only happen to hysterical time checkers like me?

5) I dont think i can convince myself of it being a dream...

Even though my dreams have many recurring themes, i dont think i will be able to ever convince myself of me dreaming. Because usually the question doesnt even pop into my mind when im dreaming, and usually, no matter how freaky the dream might get, i take it on face value, that its real. Usually when i wake up in the middle of a dream, im instantly either relieved or disappointed it ended, and it always feels like what happened was 100% real. I really cant say that i ever remember myself thinking about whether im dreaming or not, and this is a good example:

I've had this recurring dream for probably 15 years, that i see at least once or twice every year. Its a dream where i learn to fly, or at least take really long jumps, and it always goes the same way. Im always showing off this talent to someone, and 15 years ago it was my buddies at 1st grade or something, and nowadays its my family or friends. But im always showing it off to someone.
I walk with usually 2 or 3 people on the sidewalk, and start taking these leaps, that get longer and longer, and i can reach higher and higher with every leap. I cant really fly, but i know i can glide in a way where i can stay in the air for very long times. I never reach too high altitudes, and its usually me leaping, and then gliding very low for a while. I can remember that my buddies are quite disinterested in this, or at least, they are not as amazed as you would expect people to be.
The thing that has to do with my worry about not being able to recognize that im dreaming is this: Everytime i see this dream, i know that its not the first time it has happened, and i even think that i have the correct sense of knowing aproximately how many times ive done it before, and the last time i saw the dream(3 months ago), i remember knowing that i used to do this when i was a kid. The bad part is, that even if i get confused in the dream, it never occurs to me that i might be dreaming. The thing i start to question is something else, and i always wonder why i dont do this flying all the time, and always get the feeling like i have been constantly wondering how to once again be able to fly. Its like a lightbulb goes in my head, and i think: "Ah...this is how it was done. No way im going to forget how its done this time!!!"
So, i clearly remeber being puzzled why i cant do this all the time, and i know that for some reason i always forget how to do it.

I mean, talk about a dream sign! It shouldnt get any easier than that to connect the dots, and realise that i must be dreaming, but i cant ever remember the thought even crossing my mind during the dreams. Then when i wake up, im so disappointed that it was just a dream, once again, and i quickly stop thinking about it. The dream occurs so rarely, that if i hadnt read about dreams yesterday, i dont think the dream would have even crossed my mind before the next time i see it.

Do you think its possible for me to start questioning that dream once it happens the next time, even though the thought hasnt even crossed my mind the last 30 times ive seen the dream, despite me wondering every time why i cant do this all the time?

I think these questions will do for now :shock:
08-20-2008, 02:38 PM
Abra

tl;dr

...

Just kidding!

1. I don't think many of us dream of flying puppies! Dreamsigns can be based off of the most mundane things: work, friends, family, school. Quite boring, eh? But it is only natural, since we encounter these things quite often in real life. In a way, it is great that you dream about high school! All you have to do to get lucid in that case is tell yourself, "If I am in a high school, I am most likely dreaming." This is especially helpful if you just woke up from a school dream, and are planning to go back to sleep (MILD technique). As for the recall portion of your question, there's no doubt your recall will improve over time. Just keep doing what you're doing!

2. How aware you are in the dream depends on how active your mind is. If your mind is relatively awake, you are more aware. You can activate/awaken parts of your mind manually while in the dream. Most of the time, people remember to take a minute to focus on their surroundings (with at least 3 senses), activating the realistic vividness of the dream. Also very frequently, people then remember what their dream goals were, which they planned in waking life (when they forget, they usually end up flying around or trying to have sex). Occasionally, a person's mind is indistinguishable from waking consciousness. In addition to the above, they can remember their waking past (what I had for dinner), the present (it was 4:30 the last time I woke up), and even the future (I can't wait to post this dream on Dreamviews!). They might also be able to read consistently, and even do math while in the dream. So yeah, lucid dreams can truly be like real life. I've had a few dreams like that, but they don't happen often (once a month, ish?). It takes work and effort. Often times normal lucid dreams are just as enjoyable.

3.
a. It might be hypnogogia. I don't know if it classifies as hypnogogia, but it's pretty normal.
b. Sounds like it could be hypnogogia. With me, it's usually speech. Very rarely do I remember what was said. This type occurs during deep sleep, I think.
c. "Quickie dreams" is probably the best way to describe hypnogogia. It sounds just like it!
d. Not hypnogogia, but actually a hypnic jerk. No worries. These occur in alpha state (mild relaxation), and are often accompanied by a fleeting thought or image (skating-fall!, DDR-step!, pencil-write!). I don't think they have anything to do with dreams, since they most often occur on the onset of sleep.

4. False awakenings are literally when you dream that you wake up. So if you weren't dreaming, they weren't false awakenings. But how can you be sure you weren't dreaming? I've had some very realistic false awakenings, where I thought "There's no way I could be dreaming!" only to find that I had fooled myself. Hint: If you read the time, look away, and read the time again, you can check to see if you are dreaming by comparing the readouts. Chances are, if the numbers change, you are dreaming!

5. The first thing you must do is have faith in yourself. Anyone can learn to lucid dream! By performing reality checks, you can force yourself to realize you are dreaming. But for you, I suggest a good check that isn't prone to rationalizations (a good check for some people might be reading a digital watch. Someone who tries to rationalize the funky output might say "This isn't a dream, my watch is just low on batteries."). For you, I'd say finger-through-palm, or count-the-fingers. How can you explain that, in any other way than "This is a dream!"?

The reason you feel so oblivious to that flight scenario is that you've never let thoughts of dreaming enter your mind. In our culture, it is natural to treat everything as 'real.' But once you start considering the possibility that dreams (and nightmares) don't randomly come true, the way you think about dreaming will change.

I hope this helps! I find your dreams pretty interesting. You seem like you'll be a great lucid dreamer, in time. Welcome to Dreamviews!
08-20-2008, 03:42 PM
Jellow

Thanks for the thorough answer!!

I just liked to make a further comment on this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abra

4. False awakenings are literally when you dream that you wake up. So if you weren't dreaming, they weren't false awakenings. But how can you be sure you weren't dreaming? I've had some very realistic false awakenings, where I thought "There's no way I could be dreaming!" only to find that I had fooled myself. Hint: If you read the time, look away, and read the time again, you can check to see if you are dreaming by comparing the readouts. Chances are, if the numbers change, you are dreaming!

Its not really a "dream" because i dont have any actual recollection of what the mobile phone looked like, or anything, its just that i have the "knowledge" that i checked the time. In other words, i dont remember how, when, in what situation etc. i checked the time, and i only know that i did check it. So i cant do those things where i try to see if the time changes, because i never actually conciously experience the part where i check the time. I just have the false feeling of that i checked the time.

Compare it to a false awakening where you go to the bathroom. In those cases, as i have understood, you actually "see" yourself getting out of bed, going to the bathroom etc. but imagine that you dont have any actual recollection of being in the bathroom, but you simply "know" that you were there.

And obviously im dreaming, that is evident, but what i meant was that between the several "false time checks", i am awake, or if im not then that is one hell of a dream, where im completely aware of going to work, what im going to do that day, what i ate the day before, how much money i have in the bank etc.

Its hard to explain, because im even contemplating when im awake, whether i did check the time or not, and i know that in the past i have been wrong. Im just so tired, that sometimes i get fooled by several of these "false checks", but nowadays i usually do a real check quite quickly. But because i drift from being awake to sleeping probably once every minute or something, it gets really difficult to know whether ive checked the time for real or not.

The freaky part, is that it may even be possible that sometimes there may be mixtures of real checks and false checks, and if my false checks fit in with the real time, it may be that im completely unaware of this. I mean, i check my time from my mobile probably 50 times every day, so its so routine, that i dont register it. Just like my mom, who takes a lot of pills several time a day for her blood pressure and diabetes, often doesnt remember whether she took the pills or not, just minutes after she had taken them. And she doesnt have any memory problems. Another example is the fear of leaving the coffeemaker plugged or leaving the oven on. But the case with time is, that it changes constantly, so it can get really freaky at times....

Quote:

The reason you feel so oblivious to that flight scenario is that you've never let thoughts of dreaming enter your mind. In our culture, it is natural to treat everything as 'real.' But once you start considering the possibility that dreams (and nightmares) don't randomly come true, the way you think about dreaming will change.

I hope so. It just makes me worried, because my mind is a champion of twisting reality. I cant recollect ever really thinking during a dream whether it is a dream, but i havent really thought about it when im awake either....

Quote:

You seem like you'll be a great lucid dreamer, in time. Welcome to Dreamviews!

Thanks. I hope i can become a lucid dreamer, and there are parts in my dreaming history that makes me confident and parts that make me really unsure whether i will reach a lucid dream or not. The part that makes me unsure is the fact that i have never experienced lucidity, ever. I never even think about that i may be dreaming, and im always shocked when i wake up remembering a dream, when i realise that it wasnt real. I never have even the slightest feeling of "i kind of knew i was dreaming".
The thing that makes me confident is that i can control my own actions quite well in all my dreams, and my thought processes seem quite similar when im dreaming to when im awake. If i have some sort of thing that i have been thinking about a lot, they usually show up in my dreams in a fairly "real" way, and not in some cryptic freudian way where i have to interpret stuff to make sense of it. One dream was a month ago, when i needed money to borrow, and i "felt ashamed" that i had to ask a friend for a 100 euro loan. The night before i was going to ask him, i had a dream that i asked him for the loan, and it was fairly realistic, only with minor discrepancies. He agreed in the dream, and you can believe that i was a bit disappointed when i woke up :lol: Well, i got it sorted out in real life as well, so that was good....
I also remember dreams almost every time i wake up in the morning and fall back asleep. I just hope that i can incorporate the idea of it possibly being a dream into my dreams, and i think that will be the biggest obstacle. As i have been reading this and other similar sites, ive noticed that many people find it easy to consider whether they are dreaming, but find it tough to convince themselves. For me, it is totally foreign to even think that im dreaming, in the first place.....I mean, in most of dreams i do think about stuff like "this seems weird" or "why is this happening?", but never does the possibility of dreaming come into it. I think that the next week is hugely crucial in determining whether i will be able to LD, because now that i have used a lot of time to think about this, i hope i will see a change, and see that i may start to contemplate the possibility of dreaming soon. My mind is a tough SOB though, so im sure it will convince me several times before the possibility of lucidity will even become a realistic possibility...
But, im quite unsure, because i cant even imagine what being lucid during a dream is like, and i cant even fathom the idea of it, as i have never even come close as far as i can remember, that is....

Quote:

I find your dreams pretty interesting

They are, and that flying dream is my favourite. Most of my recurring dreams happen quite often, and they sometimes differ quite heavily, but that "showing off my flying skills to my friends" dream is too rare. It was more frequent before, but i think it was because i didnt really have a "best friend" type person in my life back then, and maybe i felt unappreciated. Now i have really good friends, and i see that dream only once a year or so....
The high school theme happens quite often, as well as a military theme. Im from Finland, and we have a compulsory military service here, and i also sometimes see dreams where im being told to return to the army for 6 months due to some technicality. I was in the military back in 2004, and i kind of liked it, but still it sometimes pops up in my dreams that i have to return to the life of the tough finnish soldier, that spends his days cleaning the barracks, sucking up to officers, and crawling in the woods right beside a highway, or guarding a camp from elderly people returning home from "bingo night" :lol:
08-22-2008, 11:18 PM
seeker28

:welcome:

I'm happy to take a stab at your questions. Maybe reading what Abra said and then what I say will give a more complete answer.

1) Dream Recall:Many people have very choppy dream recall. It even happens to me from time to time when I'm being lazy about it. A few things help me go from a scene or image to most of the dream. I lay in bed in the position I woke up in and just let my mind drift. After a few minutes more of the dream, or even a dream I'd forgotten completely, will come back. Another thing that works for me is to look at what I do remember and then to just let my mind drift with that as the starting point. Ususally that will give me the whole dream in reverse order from that point. Sometimes I'll even remember a dream or two from before it. I've also taught myself to become aware of my night time awakenings. This way I just jot down quick dream notes several times during the night.
Dream Signs:Being in my old schools is a common dream sign for me too. You can practice recognizing this dream sign in this way: Imagine you are at your old school (or better yet remember a dream where you were at your old school). Try to make this imagining as vivid as possible. Then think to your self some thing like, "I'm not in school anymore. I wonder if I'm dreaming." Try to imagine how it will feel to think that in your dream. Then do a reality check. A tutorial on RCs is here. While doing the RC imagine what it will feel like to have a RC tell you that you are dreaming. Imagine what you will do when you realize it really is a dream.

2) Almost everyone who is experienced at LDing will agree that the "best" LDs are more vivid than real life somehow. Hyper-real. I've had some LDs where I cried because everything was so overwelmingly clear. I sometimes have LDs where I think about what I was doing last night, what I'll do in the morning, etc. However, I mostly focus on the dream. I'm not sure if it is because I don't recall my waking life very well or if it is just because I like to get caught up in it all.

3)
a. The sucked into your bed sensation you described is a fairly common sensation associated with hypnagogia. Other common sensations are falling, rocking, vibrating, shaking, tingling, hot and cold, pressure, and rapid heart beat.
b. The music, if you are hearing it "outside of your head"(as if your ears are hearing it) instead of "inside" (as if you were imagining it) is also hypnagogic hallucinations (HI).
c. These quickie dreams can be one of two things. They may be HI, or they may be what is known as "non-REM dreams." Most people don't remember their non-REM dreams. They are very similar to HI, except you are actually full asleep and they tend to be more multi-sensory than HI. Many of my non-REM dreams are about a setting, a person, or an idea but they lack a plot. Generally I'm simply observing, and don't seem to have much of a body to move. Because of the lack of plot, there is no need to move. This is a good thing, since the physical body is not under sleep paralysis during these dreams.
d. The twitches you describe are probably "hypnic jerks." These occur as your body slips into or out of the sleep state. They can also happen as your body comes out of sleep paralysis. Hypnic jerks are most common when you are overly tired or during the night.

4) As Abra told you, FAs only happen when you are really asleep and dreaming about waking up. It is probable that some of the instances you describe were FAs and some where just confused, slow real awakenings. I tend to get a lot of FA if I'm sleeping in in the morning. I will wake up for real briefly in between some of these FAs. Some of them turn into dreams about getting up for the day, some become LDs when I realize I'm still asleep, and some come and go rapidly, as if they were non-REM FA dreams.

5) It sounds like you are very promising. I'll bet once you get past your conviction that everything is real, you will be very good at LDing! I suggest, if you want to learn to LD, that you start to practice. By that I mean that you should think about past dreams you remember well. Your learning to fly dreams would be perfect for this. Remember them as vividly as you can. Try to relive the dream. Then imagine that you think at some point, "I wonder if this is a dream?" Imagine vividly how it will feel to say this to yourself. Then do a RC. Then imagine who it will feel in the dream to realize you are dreaming. Think about what you might do now that you it is a dream. Do this over and over, with as many remembered dreams as possible. This exercize will help your mind to learn to doubt reality, and to know what to do when you aren't sure.

I hope my perspective helps!