Thread: Why WILD?

Just read a WILD tutorial, then you'll know what to do with your SP.

ya just read the toturial. im not sure how WILD helps you obtain a LD scientiffically...but i know how it works if i where to attemt it just by reading the guild. o and your lucky i wish i could go into WILD atomatically

Originally Posted by shannyball

I have many occasions where my body fell asleep before my my mind or stayed asleep longer than my mind- these didn't seem like fun experiences but people here seem to really think they are great. Why? Is this helpful to Lucid dreaming, this happens to me a lot, I thought that there was something wrong with me I thought that I have sleep paralysis? Can I manipulate these the same as a Lucid?

They are great experiences... IF you are a brave person when it comes to pioneering the mysterious frontier of the occult. Yes, you have sleep paralysis. Everyone has sleep paralysis multiple times throughout each night as they sleep, but usually they are unconscious by this point.

Sleep paralysis is very useful for lucid dreaming as it's one of the road signs that tell you that you are about to transition into the dream world. Stay calm, so you don't wake up, and stay focused so you don't go unconscious and you will be in a lucid dream in no time.

Read. It's what SP is, and how to make it seem less intimidating/scary.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...79#post1002279

Originally Posted by Jackalhead

They are great experiences... IF you are a brave person when it comes to pioneering the mysterious frontier of the occult. Yes, you have sleep paralysis. Everyone has sleep paralysis multiple times throughout each night as they sleep, but usually they are unconscious by this point.

Sleep paralysis is very useful for lucid dreaming as it's one of the road signs that tell you that you are about to transition into the dream world. Stay calm, so you don't wake up, and stay focused so you don't go unconscious and you will be in a lucid dream in no time.

Please leave the occult far, far away from lucid dreaming where it belongs.

People have REM ATONIA during REM sleep. SP is rarer, and it is possible that you suffer from SP as a disorder. If so, there are numerous threads about that will help you learn to transition these frequently occurring episodes into lucid dreams.

Are you actually talking about sleep paralysis, or entering dreams though? Keeping your mind awake as your body falls asleep doesn't necessarily mean anything at all. Dreaming, simply sleeping, and sleep paralysis are all distinctly different phenomena.

What? SP is a disorder?

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone refer to SP as anything but a normal step on the way to a WILD (or other dream, but you're normally asleep when it happens).

Yes, it's confusing, but Shift and I are in the making of something to explain everything.

Originally Posted by Tobasco

What? SP is a disorder?

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone refer to SP as anything but a normal step on the way to a WILD (or other dream, but you're normally asleep when it happens).

That's because most people are completely uneducated idiots running around and spreading misinformation without doing the slightest bit of intelligent research beforehand.

What Every Lucid Dreamer Should Know About Sleep Paralysis

SP is far from normal, it is not a step to anything (though it can be taken advantage of), it has very little to do with dreams, and generally speaking it happens just as you are about to fall asleep or when you have just woken up. The majority of people mistakenly refer to REM atonia as SP, and when they talk about whatever it is they mean to talk about they usually do it inaccurately as well. The majority of people mistakenly assume that simple HH is SP. Whenever you see SP spoken of on here, be very critical and pay very close attention to what it is the person is actually speaking of.

While many of the people who are new to the area of lucid dreaming and consciousness in general may confuse HH and SP as the same thing, the more experienced people, and thus the majority of this forum do not confuse the two. I think it's fairly widely understood that they are vastly different processes.

Originally Posted by Shift

The majority of people mistakenly refer to REM atonia as SP, and when they talk about whatever it is they mean to talk about they usually do it inaccurately as well.

I must have missed something, I thought the basic description of REM atonia was the inability to voluntarily move your muscles. How is that...not a form of paralysis? Being that it occurs while sleeping, most find it easiest to refer to it as sleep paralysis. So in that sense, (the sense most people refer to it in), REM atonia = sleep paralysis..sorry.

Originally Posted by Shift

The majority of people mistakenly assume that simple HH is SP.

Unfortunately, you are absolutely right. I used to suffer from REM atonia, and it was a bit terrifying, and stressful. Sadly, this misinterpretation is becoming more and more true amongst people who are unfamiliar with this area of study. However, their unfamiliarity is do to the fact that they simply haven't yet learned some things yet, and there's nothing wrong with that. Ignorance is just the absence of experience and/or instruction. I'm not sure that designating those who have yet to learn something as "uneducated idiots" is particularly appropriate, especially for a Dream Guide.

Well I certainly did not mean to come across as an "uneducated idiot" . I called it the only thing that I thought it could be, what my doctor had told me it was and from matching my symptoms to information found on the internet. I did not just wake up one morning and say "I think I will call it SP". I did research as much as was possible for me- more out of fear at that point not understanding what on earth was happening to me!? When I would hear the mechanical buzzing in my ears and I couldn't move and I would think that I felt a presence in the room with me. I am a spiritual person and not having any other facts to go on at that time I was afraid I was under the attack of something dark. Now I understand that it isn't anything of the Occult and I have come to manage it the best I can by not flipping out when it happens. However it is still a frightening feeling when I cannot move and I feel like am not alone and I have to talk my self down to letting go and drifting off to sleep. I was in fact exited when I thought that I had found out that it could actually be used as a tool to help with my Lucid dreaming- I feel sad that because I do not have years and years of experience knowing different vocabulary terms I am thought of as an idiot-that is just not true. I don't like to feel that I can't ask honest questions in a place I thought was open to the extraordinary and different.

Originally Posted by Rainman

While many of the people who are new to the area of lucid dreaming and consciousness in general may confuse HH and SP as the same thing, the more experienced people, and thus the majority of this forum do not confuse the two. I think it's fairly widely understood that they are vastly different processes.



I must have missed something, I thought the basic description of REM atonia was the inability to voluntarily move your muscles. How is that...not a form of paralysis? Being that it occurs while sleeping, most find it easiest to refer to it as sleep paralysis. So in that sense, (the sense most people refer to it in), REM atonia = sleep paralysis..sorry.



Unfortunately, you are absolutely right. I used to suffer from REM atonia, and it was a bit terrifying, and stressful. Sadly, this misinterpretation is becoming more and more true amongst people who are unfamiliar with this area of study. However, their unfamiliarity is do to the fact that they simply haven't yet learned some things yet, and there's nothing wrong with that. Ignorance is just the absence of experience and/or instruction. I'm not sure that designating those who have yet to learn something as "uneducated idiots" is particularly appropriate, especially for a Dream Guide.

So you enjoy dancing about in RL while you are having your dreams, and suffered from REM atonia kicking in every night during REM? Strange that you would suffer from, be terrified of, and stressed out by something that you would be completely unaware of.

I'm not talking about people who haven't learned things. I'm talking about people who haven't read anything and then run around claiming to know things. These people are uneducated. These people are idiots (an utterly foolish or senseless person.) when it comes to the discussion of these things.

You are severely confusing REM atonia. I've never even seen someone completely invert the relationship before.

REM atonia and sleep paralysis are two scientific terms that refer to two distinct physiological states. If you find one easier to say than the other, just don't say them at all because to confuse the two is inaccurate and misleading. Words are established to refer to things. REM atonia refers to the paralysis of your body during REM sleep. Sleep Paralysis is the paralysis outside of REM sleep, usually right before sleep and right after awakening. I didn't make up the words, but these are strict definitions that were established quite a while ago and now have a wealth of literature behind them. So, misusing them is incorrect. So please just use them properly. It's not that hard to just understand the concepts and then apply the terminology appropriately.

Your response is full of irony. The only thing you did properly was call me out on being rude. I get passionate about my job

Originally Posted by shannyball

Well I certainly did not mean to come across as an "uneducated idiot" . I called it the only thing that I thought it could be, what my doctor had told me it was and from matching my symptoms to information found on the internet. I did not just wake up one morning and say "I think I will call it SP". I did research as much as was possible for me- more out of fear at that point not understanding what on earth was happening to me!? When I would hear the mechanical buzzing in my ears and I couldn't move and I would think that I felt a presence in the room with me. I am a spiritual person and not having any other facts to go on at that time I was afraid I was under the attack of something dark. Now I understand that it isn't anything of the Occult and I have come to manage it the best I can by not flipping out when it happens. However it is still a frightening feeling when I cannot move and I feel like am not alone and I have to talk my self down to letting go and drifting off to sleep. I was in fact exited when I thought that I had found out that it could actually be used as a tool to help with my Lucid dreaming- I feel sad that because I do not have years and years of experience knowing different vocabulary terms I am thought of as an idiot-that is just not true. I don't like to feel that I can't ask honest questions in a place I thought was open to the extraordinary and different.

I never called you anything of the sort! I was referring to people who write long tutorials and just mess up information and confuse people. From your original post and what you said, I have already stated that I think it is possible that you suffer from SP as a disorder (see post #6, "SP is rarer, and it is possible that you suffer from SP as a disorder. If so, there are numerous threads about that will help you learn to transition these frequently occurring episodes into lucid dreams."), and now that you have described it fully I would say that it is definitely sleep paralysis. Nothing else I have said after that was addressed to you, but in answer to other questions. I would never dream of insulting you, and don't worry- you are very much welcome to ask questions. The only thing I am against is people (again, not you, don't worry) who go around answering questions with false statements and posting huge threads full of misinformation when they are not qualified to.

Alright, I see that I misread and apologize- I thought I heard someone say that SP is a bad thing? My doctor never said that anything negative could result from it- have you heard different? I think it would be good to know if what happens to me is dangerous, though I'm not sure I would be able to change it. I also have episodes of Sleep Apnea - that is more frightening, not being able to breath. I have been able to lessen both episodes by changing some habits, eating healthier, cutting back on caffeine- cutting out any mind altering substances completely and getting enough sleep. But occasionally they still happen.

Originally Posted by shannyball

Alright, I see that I misread and apologize- I thought I heard someone say that SP is a bad thing? My doctor never said that anything negative could result from it- have you heard different? I think it would be good to know if what happens to me is dangerous, though I'm not sure I would be able to change it. I also have episodes of Sleep Apnea - that is more frightening, not being able to breath. I have been able to lessen both episodes by changing some habits, eating healthier, cutting back on caffeine- cutting out any mind altering substances completely and getting enough sleep. But occasionally they still happen.

Oh no, I apologize. The last thing I want is to make anyone feel unwelcome or like they can't ask a question without me attacking them! It is far from the truth, please ask any you have and I will do my very best to answer them or point you to answers

Besides the fear, and maybe if your house is burning down, I don't think there is anything dangerous about SP and I have never read anything to that effect. It's actually supposed to get less severe as you age, which is cool I suppose if you dislike it. To me having it would be a benefit, if you can learn to lucid dream from your SP. Have you ever brought lucid dreaming up to this doctor who diagnosed you with SP? It would be cool to either spur him on to learn about it or find that he knows about it. You could even bring it up nonchalantly to test the waters if you're worried about that. "Last time I mentioned my sleep paralysis to someone, they told me I should use it to lucid dream and have dreams where I know I'm dreaming. Do you know anything about that, is it real?"

Ah, my freshmen year roommate had sleep apnea. Unlike you she drank, smoked pot, and overate just about every day which did not contribute to either of us getting a good night's sleep It sounds like you have some good doctors and good habits established though!

Originally Posted by Shift

Please leave the occult far, far away from lucid dreaming where it belongs.

People have REM ATONIA during REM sleep. SP is rarer, and it is possible that you suffer from SP as a disorder. If so, there are numerous threads about that will help you learn to transition these frequently occurring episodes into lucid dreams.

Are you actually talking about sleep paralysis, or entering dreams though? Keeping your mind awake as your body falls asleep doesn't necessarily mean anything at all. Dreaming, simply sleeping, and sleep paralysis are all distinctly different phenomena.

There is no disorder. SP is a very natural occurrence that happens every night whether the individual is aware of it or not -- 99% of the time they are already unconscious by the time there body goes into sleep paralysis. This is a necessary function to keep people from sleep walking.

In fact, the only people with a disorder are the people who DON'T go into SP regularly before reaching REM, because they have a sleep walking disorder. SP only becomes an issue when the person naturally remains conscious, without the desire to go out of body or into a lucid dream and is in absolute terror as they have no idea what is going on.

A lot of times, when people WILD they lose the kinesthetic sensation of their physical body BEFORE it goes into SP, which is a very wonderful thing as you don't have to suffer the terror before the fun begins.

As far as debating and discussing the relevance the occult has with lucid dreaming, we'll save that for another time and another thread where it would be more on topic.

Originally Posted by Jackalhead

There is no disorder. SP is a very natural occurrence that happens every night whether the individual is aware of it or not -- 99% of the time they are already unconscious by the time there body goes into sleep paralysis. This is a necessary function to keep people from sleep walking.

In fact, the only people with a disorder are the people who DON'T go into SP regularly before reaching REM, because they have a sleep walking disorder. SP only becomes an issue when the person naturally remains conscious, without the desire to go out of body or into a lucid dream and is in absolute terror as they have no idea what is going on.

A lot of times, when people WILD they lose the kinesthetic sensation of their physical body BEFORE it goes into SP, which is a very wonderful thing as you don't have to suffer the terror before the fun begins.

As far as debating and discussing the relevance the occult has with lucid dreaming, we'll save that for another time and another thread where it would be more on topic.

You are confusing REM atonia and sleep paralysis.

Edit*

I just wrote a rather rude and condescending response, and determined that it would have been counter productive. I apologize if you misinterpreted my thoughts on sleep paralysis. For the record, my "tutorial" was about how to get past the fear of sleep paralysis. It was not called "Hey this is what the definition of sleep paralysis is." If there were inaccuracies, which I'm sure there were, sorry. Either way the point was to teach people how to get past the fear of it like I did. I didn't mean to convey that my area of expertise is sleep paralysis.. it's certainly not.

From what I've heard, REM atonia and Sleep Paralysis seem like essentially the same thing. Perhaps the terms can just be used interchangeably, even if it's slightly incorrect? It's not like that would be the first time that happened in the English language

Originally Posted by Tobasco

From what I've heard, REM atonia and Sleep Paralysis seem like essentially the same thing. Perhaps the terms can just be used interchangeably, even if it's slightly incorrect? It's not like that would be the first time that happened in the English language

No, this is a highly inaccurate approach. Look, aids and the flu are both viruses, right? But you don't call a retrovirus like aids the flu simply because they both make you sick. These are two VERY distinct things. Doctors like Shannyball's call the disorder sleep paralysis. It's an established term to the entire medical and scientific communities. Just because some lucid dreamers can't keep them straight (and I'm really not sure why) doesn't mean we should run around misusing them. They're not that difficult to use properly.

REM atonia occurs naturally and normally during REM sleep to prevent you from acting out your dreams.
Sleep paralysis is this same mechanism when it is inappropriately activated outside of REM.

SP is a transient, conscious state of involuntary immobility occurring immediately prior to falling asleep or upon wakening and is classified as a parasomnia associated with REM (ASDA, 1990). Although individuals are unable to make gross bodily movements during SP they are able to open their eyes and subsequently to report accurately on events in their surroundings during the episode (Hishikawa & Kaneko, 1965). Approximately 25 to 40% of people report some SP experience (Cheyne, Newby- Clark, & Rueffer, in press; Fukuda, Ogilvie, Chilcott, Vendittelli, & Takeuchi, 1998; Spanos, McNulty, DuBreuil, Pires, & Burgess, 1995), although the incidence may vary across cultures (Fukuda, Miyasita, & Ishihara, 1987; Ness, 1978).

Hypnagogic and Hypnopompic Hallucinations during Sleep Paralysis: Neurological and Cultural Construction of the Night-Mare
J. Allan Cheyne, Steve D. Rueffer, and Ian R. Newby-Clark (1999)

Well then, wouldn't SP be the correct usage of the term if you are not in REM while you're experiencing it? The natural phenomenon that occurs every night to non-LDers while they sleep would be REM atonia. But according to your source, the only distinguishing difference between REM atonia and SP is whether or not the person is in REM sleep at the time they experience it...

Originally Posted by Tobasco

Well then, wouldn't SP be the correct usage of the term if you are not in REM while you're experiencing it? The natural phenomenon that occurs every night to non-LDers while they sleep would be REM atonia. But according to your source, the only distinguishing difference between REM atonia and SP is whether or not the person is in REM sleep at the time they experience it...

That's what I've been saying all along.

Shannyball, are you alright with us continuing this discussion even further on your thread? If not, we can very easily create a new one.

Lol ok I got it now.

Sorry about hijacking your topic man.

Originally Posted by Shift

You are confusing REM atonia and sleep paralysis.

Really? I thought SP was when you find yourself awake in bed yet hallucinating and you are completely paralyzed.

Originally Posted by Jackalhead

Really? I thought SP was when you find yourself awake in bed yet hallucinating and you are completely paralyzed.

That's REM Atonia I think. But I think hallucinations are different altogether. Shift, feel free to correct me.