The Prodigal Dreamer

I am not a newbie, either to dreaming or to this forum, but I have been away for so long, that I suspect I might as well be.

For one thing, I have changed a great deal, in that while I am still fascinated with dreams in general, and lucid dreaming in particular, I am in all regard and on all issues a card-carrying skeptic.

This does not mean that I reject "supernatural" claims, theories, and explanations as a matter of course. Rather, it means I feel that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and in my particular case, that I have found the evidence for all supernatural claims of which I am aware to be sorely lacking.

I expect this to result in some very interesting discussion in days to come. that said, it's good to be back!

Cheers!

Welcome back!

We're alike in the sense that we are sorta non-newbs with little post count. I've been gone a while too but came back because of my interest in this stuff, plus I like this site.

Are you saying your a skeptic to lucid dreaming? Or you mean like out-of-bodies?

Welcome back to the forums~! :D Hopefully your stay will be longer this time. We have just gone under new management, so there should be a lot of changes (good ones!) coming.

You probably don't need to ask me anything about dreaming, but in case you do have any questions, let me know. ;)

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Originally Posted by louie54

Welcome back!

We're alike in the sense that we are sorta non-newbs with little post count. I've been gone a while too but came back because of my interest in this stuff, plus I like this site.

Are you saying your a skeptic to lucid dreaming? Or you mean like out-of-bodies?

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Well, lucid dreaming is obviously something that happens. Not only do I have personal experience, but the existence of the phenomenon is well-documented and its existence is not questioned by any respected scientific authorities on the subject.

I am skeptical of OBEs, in particular, but also in extraordinary, unsupported claims in general.

For Perspective, I am an agnostic atheist, (PLEASE do not tell me one cannot be both; if you think that, kindly consult a dictionary yourself, because I am tired of correcting people about it,) and I do not believe in ghosts, alien abductions, or most conspiracy theories.

This is not simply because they are outstanding claims, but because they are outstanding claims conspicuously lacking in evidence.

I'll take theses separate topics and treat them each briefly, so you know where I am coming from, rather than think I'm just a cynic with no imagination.

Religion:
Because alternative explanations exist to all of the alleged miracles, prophecies, and origin myths of various faiths, it is unreasonable, in my opinion, to take the claims of any particular religious system seriously, especially considering that no religious faith has more evidence than the rest.

Ghosts:
Even assuming that we have souls in the first place (which I don't assume) it seems awfully convenient that ghosts would manifest in ways that exist just on the edges of perception, where one has to already be at least half-convinced even to see anything.
Also, all of the evidence put forward in those "ghost hunting" shows that have lately become so popular on cable are problematic. Why turn all the lights out, even if you are in a building that has power available? Is it because ghosts hate artificial light, or is it because you'll see more floating dust moats and other fake phenomena, and work yourself up into an excitable, fear-laced emotional state in the dark? Second is the anomaly hunting: if you turn off all the lights, and then fill a creaky old house with all kinds of gadgets that read temperature, sense motion, sense electro-magnetic fields, and spit out computer generated words from ambient noises, you will find spikes in your data.
Just sweeping for anomalies and then calling every bleep, squeak and draft a "ghost" is not responsible journalism.

Alien Abductions:
It seems unlikely to me that aliens would "probe" their abductees, when even us primitive humans have non-invasive methods that can reveal far more information in much better detail without compromising anyone's orifices.
Further more, a good many of the stories are textbook examples of Sleep Paralysis, especially the sexual elements and the paralysis itself. In the middle ages, people had the same things happen, only instead of aliens, it was demons. Why is it that when a zombie or a bear appears in your room, instead of an alien, no one thinks they are being abducted?
Those stories which do not fit the SP narrative, are still better explained by misapprehension, delusion, or attention-seeking behavior.
Always remember that an anecdote is a CLAIM, about a MEMORY, of a PERCEPTION, of an event. At any of those three points, the anecdote can deviate from the truth, often wildly.

Conspiracy theories:
It's not that I have any particular implicit trust of government or big business, but some of our most popular conspiracy theories, including those surrounding September 11th, the JFK assassination, or the alleged link between vaccines and autism, are born from ideology rather than evidence, and can only support themselves by twisting, cherry-picking, or even fabricating evidence.
The vaccine/autism link is one of the most stark: when you look at the actual research, we KNOW FOR A FACT that the conspiracy theorists are wrong.
As for 9/11 and JFK, even though we cannot say for certain that the government was not involved, much of the evidence that suggests they were is misrepresented, and better explanations exist.

:welcome: back. Unfortunately, since most lucid dreamers are asleep and by themselves when they lucid dream, there is little evidence, however; Dr. Stephen LaBerge went to great lengths to scientifically prove lucid dreaming. Once you get over that hurdle, the experiences people have aren't that far fetched when you realize that the dream is your imagination, ergo anything you imagine should be possible.

This is why DV exists, while other lucid dreaming sites are spiritual and "new-agey" dreamview's position on lucid dreaming is a very scientific one. Check out our tutorials. I had them re-written about a year ago, and there was no hear-say or personal opinions allowed. The only one that you might find sketchy is the one on why we dream. I wrote that one myself and was very careful to use wording such as "the current scientific consensus is..." as no one actually knows why we dream. :)

That sounds interesting. I think I'll check it out.

Some people think everyone on this forum is a freak.

I think most people are like this, and why most people who come here after having a lucid dream will stay longer.

Well, I certainly don't think anyone here is a freak, even those who do have beliefs in things I consider absurd.

For one thing, although I may have become confident that no good evidence for OBEs exists, and therefore that anyone who believes in them is under some sort of misapprehension, I don't know that for a fact. For another thing, I used to believe a number of things myself that I now consider ridiculous. For example, I used to be Catholic, I used to believe the moon landing was a hoax, and I used to think that professional astrologers really could use the stars to make accurate charts about a person's personality and fortunes.

I no longer believe any of those things, but it would be very hypocritical of me to look down on someone just because they believe in similar things.

oh, and I wasn't saying most people on this forum are freaks. I had not even read the post above me.

fair enough

Thought it would be interesting to compare my results from the past to fresh ones today:

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Originally Posted by RCLefty

Advanced Global Personality Test Results

Extraversion |||||||||||||||||||| 83%
Stability |||||||||||||||||||| 86%
Orderliness |||||||||| 36%
Accommodation |||||||||||||||||| 76%
Interdependence |||||||||||||||||| 76%
Intellectual |||||||||||||||||||| 83%
Mystical |||||||||||| 50%
Artistic |||||||||||||||||| 76%
Religious |||||||||||||||||||| 90%
Hedonism |||||||||||||| 56%
Materialism |||||||||||| 43%
Narcissism |||||||||||||||||| 76%
Adventurousness |||||||||||||||| 70%
Work ethic |||||||||| 36%
Self absorbed |||||||||||| 43%
Conflict seeking |||||||||||||||||| 76%
Need to dominate |||||||||||| 50%

Romantic |||||||||||||||| 70%
Avoidant || 10%
Anti-authority |||||||||||||||||| 76%
Wealth |||||| 23%
Dependency |||||| 30%
Change averse |||||||||||| 50%
Cautiousness |||||||||||| 43%
Individuality |||||||||||| 50%
Sexuality |||||||||||||||||||| 83%
Peter pan complex |||||||||||| 43%
Physical security |||||||||||||||||||| 83%
Physical fitness |||||||||||||| 57%
Histrionic |||||||||||| 43%
Paranoia |||||| 23%
Vanity |||||||||| 36%
Hypersensitivity |||||| 23%
Female cliche |||| 16%

Stability results were very high which suggests you are extremely relaxed, calm, secure, and optimistic.

Orderliness results were moderately low which suggests you are, at times, overly flexible, improvised, and fun seeking at the expense of reliability, work ethic, and long term accomplishment.

Extraversion results were high which suggests you are overly talkative, outgoing, sociable and interacting at the expense too often of developing your own individual interests and internally based identity.

trait snapshot:
messy, disorganized, social, tough, outgoing, rarely worries, self revealing, open, risk taker, likes the unknown, likes large parties, makes friends easily, likes to stand out, likes to make fun of people, reckless, optimistic, positive, strong, does not like to be alone, ambivalent about chaos, abstract, impractical, not good at saving money, fearless, trusting, thrill seeker, not rule conscious, enjoys leadership, strange, loves food, abstract, rarely irritated, anti-authority, attracted to the counter culture


a lot of it's fairly accurate.

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Advanced Global Personality Test Results

Extraversion |||||||||||||||||||| 83%
Stability |||||||||||||||||||| 83%
Orderliness || 10%
Accommodation |||||||||||||||||| 76%
Intellectual |||||||||||||||| 70%
Interdependence |||||||||||||| 60%
Mystical || 10%
Materialism |||||||||||| 50%
Narcissism |||||||||||||| 60%
Adventurousness |||||||||||| 50%
Work ethic |||||||||| 40%
Conflict seeking |||||||||||||| 60%
Need to dominate |||||||||||||||| 70%
Romantic |||||||||| 40%
Avoidant || 10%
Anti-authority |||||||||||||| 60%

Wealth || 10%
Dependency |||||||||||||| 60%
Change averse |||| 20%
Cautiousness |||||||||||||||||| 80%
Individuality |||||||||||| 50%
Sexuality |||||||||||||||| 70%
Peter pan complex |||||||||||| 50%
Histrionic |||||||||| 40%
Vanity |||||||||| 40%
Artistic |||||||||||||| 60%
Hedonism |||||||||||||||| 70%
Physical fitness |||||||||| 40%
Religious || 10%
Paranoia || 10%
Hypersensitivity |||||||||||||||||||| 83%
Indie |||||||||||| 50%

Stability results were high which suggests you are very relaxed, calm, secure, and optimistic..
Orderliness results were very low which suggests you are overly flexible, improvised, and fun seeking at the expense too often of reliability, work ethic, and long term accomplishment.
Extraversion results were high which suggests you are overly talkative, outgoing, sociable and interacting at the expense too often of developing your own individual interests and internally based identity.


messy, disorganized, social, tough, outgoing, rarely worries, self revealing, open, risk taker, likes the unknown, likes large parties, makes friends easily, likes to stand out, likes to make fun of people, reckless, optimistic, positive, strong, does not like to be alone, ambivalent about chaos, abstract, impractical, not good at saving money, fearless, trusting, thrill seeker, not rule conscious, enjoys leadership, strange, loves food, abstract, rarely irritated, anti-authority, attracted to the counter culture