Morphenius's introduction

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12-15-2009, 09:09 PM
Morphenius

Morphenius's introduction

Hello everyone!

I'm excited to have found this forum. It's wonderful to see such an intelligent community focused on lucid dreaming! Thank you for making it open for anyone to join in.

I came across this website while Googling criticism for Lucidology. Its creator, Nicholas Newport, seemed to offer a number of truly novel methods for inducing WILDs and "out-of-body experiences." I've read a wide range of books and tutorials on inducing these experiences, and they virtually all seemed to say the same thing. So I thought it was quite intriguing to find something unusual for once.

This thread led by spaceexplorer starting back in July 2009 was the first place I found thorough criticism of the methods Newport offers. I read through that thread and then several others associated with it (including Jeff777's tutorial) and was quickly impressed with the nature and knowledge of the community here.

Thank you for being here!

~Morphenius
12-15-2009, 09:47 PM
nina

Welcome! I'm not familiar with Nicholas Newport or that particular thread...but it's very refreshing to see people find their way here while searching for intelligent discussion and critique of such "novel methods". :)

What is your experience with Lucid Dreaming thus far? Which book that you've read is your favorite or would you be most likely to recommend to others?
12-15-2009, 11:04 PM
Robot_Butler

Glad to have you here. I remember that discussion. I think it is still going. It is important to always separate the ritual from the reality of dreaming. We create these models or rituals in order to trick ourselves into a slightly abnormal state of consciousness. Sure, the rituals work to induce a lucid dream, but you can't trust them as explanations. Sometimes, people get so caught up in their particular model that they start to mistake it for reality.

For example, I might imagine a giant orange octopus pulling me into a dream. It might work to induce a dream, but this does not mean I've discovered that giant orange octopuseseses are the cause of all dreams.

That is the problem I have when people like Newport start overexplaining their lucid induction tricks. They start to become limited by the models they have created.
12-16-2009, 05:41 AM
Morphenius

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Welcome! I'm not familiar with Nicholas Newport or that particular thread...but it's very refreshing to see people find their way here while searching for intelligent discussion and critique of such "novel methods". :)

Indeed! I think it's always a good idea to explore both sides of anything new. It's the only way I can think of to develop an honest and fair view of something. Well, that and always being willing to be wrong!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquanina

What is your experience with Lucid Dreaming thus far? Which book that you've read is your favorite or would you be most likely to recommend to others?

I started lucid dreaming entirely on accident as a child. I had them on roughly a weekly basis until I was somewhere around nine years old or so. I didn't really know what they were at the time, though, nor did I have any idea that I could do anything with them other than have fun ways of beating monsters or showing off to dream-versions of my friends. My parents encouraged me to keep exploring dreams this way, too, and they suggested quite a number of different books on related topics.

I've tended to go through bouts of working seriously on my dreams and then forgetting about it while I attend to my day-to-day affairs. Lately I've been putting more serious work into it, though. I appreciate its potential as a way of interacting with hidden aspects of oneself and with the wisdom of one's subconscious mind. For instance, I remember one in which I was lucid but having difficulty getting control, so I asked one of the dream figures there for help. She taught me how to get around the difficulty I was encountering. I asked how I could repay her, and she replied with something to the effect of, "I'd really appreciate it if you could find some way of keeping me from ceasing to exist when you wake up." I've always been struck by experiences like this that seem to suggest there's more going on than just mental regurgitation in dreams.

As for books, I'm torn between two. I think a good general introduction is Stephen LaBerge's Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming. That gives some good science and some good how-to, although I'm not sure I agree with him about all out-of-body experiences being semi-lucid dreams. I also find his reasons for practicing lucid dreaming to be a little weak. Catharsis, creativity, and fantasy are pretty fun, yes, but I don't think that's nearly as robust or compelling as learning to talk to one's subconscious mind through dreams.

The other one is The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. That gives a tremendous amount of spiritual direction for lucid dreaming, and it also emphasizes the need to strengthen the mind in particular ways in order to achieve and maintain lucidity. I've personally found many of the methods described to be very helpful with developing stronger dream recall. However, I think that the core method of dream yoga is entirely too complicated, mostly unnecessarily so. I've admittedly not tried it, but I don't see how visualizing particular letters on particular peddles of a lotus flower is going to be better at inducing strong dreaming practices than some other kind of visualization. I'm also not so sure about the goal of seeking freedom from suffering by eliminating all threads of karma, as the author puts it. Perhaps I'm just caught up in illusion, but I must admit that I really enjoy an awful lot of this "illusion"!

So there you go!
12-16-2009, 05:48 AM
Morphenius

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

Glad to have you here. I remember that discussion. I think it is still going. It is important to always separate the ritual from the reality of dreaming. We create these models or rituals in order to trick ourselves into a slightly abnormal state of consciousness. Sure, the rituals work to induce a lucid dream, but you can't trust them as explanations. Sometimes, people get so caught up in their particular model that they start to mistake it for reality.

For example, I might imagine a giant orange octopus pulling me into a dream. It might work to induce a dream, but this does not mean I've discovered that giant orange octopuseseses are the cause of all dreams.

That is the problem I have when people like Newport start overexplaining their lucid induction tricks. They start to become limited by the models they have created.

True. I try to see the functional value in what someone offers in the way of techniques. I figure that the real reasons it works can emerge at some point as new information presents itself.

I've not had enough time to test Newport's methods thoroughly, but the overlap with Jeff777's tutorial so far does seem quite on. I've felt the wave of paralysis come over me twice now. (Both times I've started moving before it finishes, though, because I find that my tongue is blocking my airway.)

I'm reminded of neuro-linguistic programming (NLP). Much of what Richard Bandler and John Grinder developed in terms of theory is just wrong, we now know, but that doesn't stop the adoption of the theory from producing some rather profound results. Sometimes it's helpful to adopt a theory one logically knows is flawed simply because it works in certain contexts.

But at the same time, I agree with spaceexplorer in that it's a bad idea to deceive people without some kind of fair disclaimer. Bandler and Grinder were upfront with the fact that what they were offering was functionality rather than truth.

Thank you for your welcome!