How can you tell if it is lucid?

Hi there, I have been thinking about what a lucid dream is. I know it's when you realise that you are dreaming when in a dream, but really what we might think is us 'realising we are in a dream' and taking control could literally be how the dream was planned out to be and you doing reality checks and realising you are lucid could be part of the dream itself, already programmed, not you realising on the spot. I can find this acceptable as when you think about something for a long period of time you do generally tend to dream about it as it is playing a huge role in you life.
However, is this what a lucid dream really is? Just you getting it into your mind that you will do these 'reality checks' or go lucid, so you just dream about it and experience this? Don't get me wrong, I am not skeptical of lucid dreaming. I have no had a lucid dream as of yet (to my own knowledge,) but it strikes me as something that you push yourself into dreaming about, only to literally have the dream you are being lucid and not really being lucid as such. - Or is this what 'lucid dreaming' is?
For example, if I thought all day and all night that I will be lucid and I will do reality checks in my dream, I might do them as part of my dream without making a conscious descision to do it and then in my dream, which is already planned out and I have no control over, might think I have control over it, but not really realise that I am dreaming, and then wake up thinking I was lucid. This is what I feel I am going to do eventually when I am concentrating on going lucid.

Or... Does the fact that your body automatically does a 'reality check' in a dream signal you to take over and make conscious descisions?

Sorry if I have not explained it well as I find it hard to explain myself, but if anyone could have a chat about it I would be grateful :)

Thanks.

While it's arguably possible, I would have to say that this isn't the case. Now, there are some instances where we react as if we are actually lucid, and those experiences can be very confusing, when it comes to differentiating them from an actual lucid dream. But, when you're lucid, the major difference is that you are conscious. You can tell you are conscious. You can tell when the dream starts to fade. Sometimes you start to wonder what time it is, and whether or not you're going to be late for work. Your entire demeanor can change, with the knowledge that you are dreaming.

You have to remember that there are many of us who began lucid dreaming before knowing what lucid dreaming is. We didn't rely on reality checks or auto-suggestion. We didn't "set in our mind that we are going to have a lucid dream tonight." Basically, we were (and still are, at times) just dreaming (or in my case, having a nightmare), realize that it's just a dream, and usually try to wake ourselves up from it. Many people have had these types of lucids - you've probably had them yourself, at some point in your life.

Another clue is how fragile lucidity is. If you allow your mind to wander from the knowledge that you're dreaming, you will usually just slip back into a normal dream state. Also, WILDS. People can shift from waking world consciousness to dream consciousness, fluidly. There is no break in awareness - which comes with falling asleep first, and then starting to dream regularly, before realizing you are dreaming.

Lucid dreaming has been well-documented, both in scientific and spiritual circles. There are "false" lucid dreams out there (though I hate calling them that. They are simply non-lucid dreams), but the consciousness we feel inside of a full-blown lucid dream is just as real as the consciousness you're feeling right now, when you're reading this thread. :)

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could literally be how the dream was planned out to be and you doing reality checks and realising you are lucid could be part of the dream itself, already programmed, not you realising on the spot

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Planned out by whom, exactly? You're suggesting a form of predestination within natural constructs created by our own minds.

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However, is this what a lucid dream really is? Just you getting it into your mind that you will do these 'reality checks' or go lucid, so you just dream about it and experience this?

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Ah, but if you can't trust your own experience, what can you trust? If you experience a lucid dream, then by definition you know that you're dreaming. How can you dream that you know that you're dreaming without knowing that you're dreaming?

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I might do them as part of my dream without making a conscious descision to do it

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That's the point of RCs, you know. You do them during the day so you do them automatically while you're dreaming. You might not be lucid while you're doing the RC; the point of the RC is to provide clues that you're dreaming. (ie: Hey, I'm not supposed to have seven fingers. I must be dreaming.)

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without making a conscious descision to do it and then in my dream, which is already planned out and I have no control over

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Again, planned out by whom? Dreams are mutable; they change according to what your mind is focused on at any given moment. If you suddenly become transfixed by the dolphins swimming along through the air, you might forget all about the zombies that were chasing you a moment ago. Dreams aren't planned out; they change too quickly.

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but not really realise that I am dreaming, and then wake up thinking I was lucid.

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Then you aren't really lucid. Lucidity, basically, is defined as being aware that you're dreaming. Some would argue that there are different levels of lucidity, but you can exert some form of control over your environment without being fully lucid. As you have more lucid dreams, you start to be able to tell just how lucid you really were.

There's a bunch of different posts here speculating on the various "levels" of lucidity.

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Originally Posted by Samael

Planned out by whom, exactly? You're suggesting a form of predestination within natural constructs created by our own minds.

Ah, but if you can't trust your own experience, what can you trust? If you experience a lucid dream, then by definition you know that you're dreaming. How can you dream that you know that you're dreaming without knowing that you're dreaming?

Again, planned out by whom? Dreams are mutable; they change according to what your mind is focused on at any given moment. If you suddenly become transfixed by the dolphins swimming along through the air, you might forget all about the zombies that were chasing you a moment ago. Dreams aren't planned out; they change too quickly.

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But that is it, you can have a dream that you know you are dreaming, without consciously realising you are dreaming. For example, I could have a dream and in it say to myself I am dreaming but not take any awareness of it as it was just a part of my dream that was supposed to be and therefore the dream will just carry on how it was supposed to. But, I can see where you are coming from here... Would it possibly be a matter of being able to take control once you had said in your dream that you were dreaming? The problem with me at the moment is when I am in a dream, I cannot induce a lucid dream as I just cannot do a reality check or take a look at my surroundings to see if I am dreaming or not - they are not what I am dreaming about, therefore I will not do it. This may be my downfall, as when I say 'planned' I assume that what we dream is set in stone, meaning we have no conscious control over it. This is where I am explaining that maybe lucid dreams are just normal dreams where we think we are dreaming and what descisions we make in them is prewired as I may say, and not what our conscious mind is telling it to do. However, I can see from both replies that you do have a clear feel of consciousness when in a dream. I have not get experienced one so I cannot say, which does not imply I am being skeptical, just curious.

For me, it feels as though the dream was 'prewired' as it does not feel like an experience, just a distant memory you cannot really relate to with feel, smell or sound. I think then that I just need to be able to get past this way of dreaming in order to be able to perform these reality checks and then be able to realise that I am dreaming consciously rather then subconsciosly, so I can then take control over my dream.

What would you guys suggest I do? I have heard about doing reality checks in life all the time, do you think this would be a suitable option for me to take? If not, why? I have read the LD induction techniques but it is just realising I am dreaming that is getting me.

Thanks.

You know, I've thought about it similarly to you I guess.

In a way, I've sometimes felt that some dreams I've had are not necessarily lucid dreams, but in reality a dream where my dream self (for the purpose of this post lets call him jimmy) believes he is lucid, and perhaps is, however my spectating or 'real' self (lets call him/me Cale) is merely watching the predetermined path or dream, despite feeling as if I am the same and experiencing and/or directly influencing the dream. Okay well since thats a complicated sentence, I'm going to try explaining it again...

I guess I'm basing what I'm saying on the theory that if you can dream of your dream self having dream control without being lucid, you can dream of your dream self having lucidity without being lucid, but merely an observer in both cases. In the end, this probably does push you into entering lucidity itself (if this actually does exist in its entirety, and isn't just the illusion of your dream self possessing it) anyway, but its still interesting to ponder. I mean, some of my dreams have been a little weird, and I haven't been entirely sure. Maybe these dreams ARE pre-determined.

I had a dream once where, once asleep and dreaming, went to sleep again and became lucid in my dream's dream. This didn't last too long and I woke up from that dream, and while still dreaming, lost lucidity while getting my laptop to write some notes on the dream. I then went back to sleep in my dream again and promptly had another Lucid Dream. After I woke up from that one I woke up for real, and after getting my laptop to write notes on that dream, I found my document empty. That confused me for a good twenty minutes of my morning. But I totally agree with what you are saying, despite the fact I just realised this paragraph actually doesn't have that much to do with the topic hahaha...

Well, thats my 5 cents, but I agree with you ! :D

I was going to respond to the first post but Oneironaut and Samael already gave great answers. The suggestion of doing a WILD is really good and it really gives you a perspective once you do start LDing, if these questions continue to bother you. There is nothing more awesome than a WILD that takes you from wakefulness to lucid dream and back, without blacking out or becoming delusional/distracted. It's real and you can't believe this could be happening, but it is and that's why LDs are so awesome.

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Originally Posted by Jongeh

This may be my downfall, as when I say 'planned' I assume that what we dream is set in stone, meaning we have no conscious control over it. This is where I am explaining that maybe lucid dreams are just normal dreams where we think we are dreaming and what descisions we make in them is prewired as I may say, and not what our conscious mind is telling it to do. However, I can see from both replies that you do have a clear feel of consciousness when in a dream. I have not get experienced one so I cannot say, which does not imply I am being skeptical, just curious.

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Ask yourself this... If you reflect on your current level of consciousness. You consider yourself awake, reading this, in the real world, and all seems fine and dandy. This is the real you, you are conscious and have control, right?

If you woke up right now (and this being a LDing forum, one shouldn't take this proposition too unlikely), how would you feel about your amount of consciousness and control? Well if you actually did, I guess you'd be pretty critical about the dream consciousness again or lack thereof, just like you were in the post I quoted.

You see, I don't think it's really that easy to conclude that because you didn't act the way you would now means dreams are completely prewired, with our consciousness stuck somewhere, unable to make choices. Taking into account various physiological differences of a waking brain and a dreaming one, it seems that an explanation is not that we're missing consciousness in dreams, but that the consciousness is incomplete or not functioning fully. Using these tricks of implanted suggestions, writing a dream journal, or automated reality checking, you get to push into action certain parts of your brain to start thinking logically, remember to check if this might be a dream or in the end to remember that dreams even exist.

The qestion on whether the dream consciousness means just following a predetermined script or actually having certain free will is a philosophical question that bleeds into all areas of our percieved existence. Nobody will be able to tell you whether dreams are "just predetermined" because nobody can tell you whether your actions are predetermined right now.

An ordinary dream is like a movie, where you are just a watcher.
A Lucid dream is like a video game.. no, a simulator.
When i have an LD, it's a whole different thing than a non-lucid one. I had some dreams where i was talking about lucid dreaming or thought about it, but it was just that, a dream.
When i realize i'm dreaming, i'm there. In that world. I'm controlling my body, i can talk whatever i want to, i can move however i want to. It's like reality. It feels so real that when i wake up, i don't feel more conscious that a few seconds before, while i was in the LD. It's too bad i haven't had many of them yet.